Gun Control & RKBA
Related: About this forumTrust the misnomer
That's essentially what's required. Lots of folks favor gun control because they believe gun control laws will eliminate or severely limit violence. The term "gun control" is a misnomer for several reasons.
First, gun control laws aim at controlling those who possess guns not the guns themselves. Realizing this deletes from the set of concepts the anthropomorphic ideas about guns. Guns don't cause people to become criminally antisocial and start shooting sprees.
Second, passing a new law(s) which aim(s) to interrupt a hypothetical sequence of events that lead to murder (which is already illegal) fundamentally affect more those not involved in the plan for any crime. Media campaigns which enlighten the misguided/uninformed are generally more successful than laws. I see ads in the media all the time relating to drunk driving, drug addiction, texting while driving... but I have yet to see an ad about difficult circumstances which could arise consequential to the casual sale, exchange or careless storage of firearms. I've seen ads about safe sex but not safe storage.
Third, doesn't it seem as an evidence against the actual premise of "control" that a law whose intended effect is some measure of positive control also having criminal penalties? If it is accepted that a particular law will change the behavior of most of those subject to the law such that certain negative (and already illegal) sequelae will be abated, it does seem rather contradictory to also add a criminal penalty as consequence of a conviction for breaking the law in question. If it is the existence of the law that brings about the desired "control" then a criminal penalty is superfluous. If it is the existence of the penalty that brings about the desired "control" then realize that those who are most responsible for the most heinous instances of crimes which these types of laws seek to abate will go unpunished because they are almost all killed by their own hand or by law enforcement.
Gun control is not only a misnomer but, in the philosophical sense, also an oxymoron.
ZombieHorde
(29,047 posts)I am probably going to read it again after I fully wake up.
discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,479 posts)discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,479 posts)Buzz Clik
(38,437 posts)A handful of people use Sudafed to make meth, but none of us can buy it over the counter any more.
So, you don't like gun control laws. How do you propose to decrease gun violence?
Lurks Often
(5,455 posts)Addressing the economic issues that is one of the underlying causes for most crime.
Addressing the social issues that make crime seem to be a viable option for some people.
Addressing the mental issues that some suffer from and doing a better job of recognizing and identifying the warning signs.
Encourage people not to kick the bucket down the road when they do identify the warning signs, in both the AZ and CO shooting, there were warning signs before hand, but no one took substantive measures to see that the person was investigated or treated.
Of course REAL solutions require time and hard work and Congress to actually do something.
bobclark86
(1,415 posts)we decrease ALL violence. Education, economic opportunities, mental health services... you know, the things Democrats are supposed to do...
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)like proper enforcement of current federal gun control laws, ending the war on drugs, deal with social inequality, make libraries cool again, make movies with people fighting it out with words at best or tire chains at worst.
discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,479 posts)...the slow response to posts 3, 4 and 5 that your somehow unhappy with those options. Would you care to elaborate?
Buzz Clik
(38,437 posts)Well?
discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,479 posts)I hope you don't mind if I interject here that I've observed a recent influx of visitors to this group and also a somewhat increased level of courtesy. Pleasant.
To the point, How do you propose to decrease gun violence?
I do agree with most of the suggestions written in the posts I previously mentioned. The US, as a whole, has been making regular progress with these issues over the past few decades. Is there a subset of these issues, about which you feel progress is especially lacking?
Buzz Clik
(38,437 posts)...legislate. Necessary but hard.
Progress was made in the mid 1990s in terms of decreasing the number of homicides by guns, but the rate has not decreased for several years.
I agree that enforcing current laws is an excellent idea, but very few Second Amendment advocates support such enforcement. I also believe that reversing the ban on assault weapons was a mistake.
discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,479 posts)I believe that certain social measures will be of greater significance than any new bans or restrictions. What type of new ban do you support?
spin
(17,493 posts)Gun crime continues to decrease, despite increase in gun sales
3:41 PM 09/28/2011
Despite increases in gun sales, gun crimes continued to decrease in the United States for the fourth straight year in 2010, according to the FBI.
The FBI recently released its Crime in The United States statistics for 2010. Overall, murders in the U.S. have decreased steadily since 2006, dropping from 15,087 to 12,996. Firearms murders which made up 67 percent of all murders in the U.S. in 2010 have followed this trend, decreasing by 14 percent.
Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2011/09/28/gun-crime-continues-to-decrease-despite-increase-in-gun-ownership/#ixzz2H3CEGEpC
discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,479 posts)...underwhelmed by the his replies.
spin
(17,493 posts)discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,479 posts)...no doubt inspired by the brave thought of hanging up the phone on Buzz Lightyear.
ZombieHorde
(29,047 posts)Second part:
True in this case.
I agree. I don't laws change as many minds as celebrities and well-made ads.
Third part: This is the fun argument. I guess the counter argument is laws are (kind of) effective because of the punishment. Of course, the gunman that intend to die anyway are not overly concerned about the punishment.
discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,479 posts)Just an appendix: (third part) Those who seek to begin a high profile mass shooting and then simply vanish from the area will be arrested by numerous law enforcement officers, unimpressed by the suspect's claims of invisibility due to a functioning utility belt.
discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,479 posts)Firearm laws. I think one of the problems with the issue is the use of the term control. Control is just BS because, as the criminals and crazies demonstrate daily, they will do whatever the hell they please, screw the law. Let's get over it. Depending on their problem and inclinations, these folks will shoot you, borrow a book and never return it, pick their teeth in public, wear white shoes after Labor Day, rape your dog and French kiss your cat. They have no allegiance to lawfulness nor interest in you or the problems they will cause you. They're beyond control.
** Evening venting completed **
Thanks
ZombieHorde
(29,047 posts)Firearm laws works well too.
discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,479 posts)Works for me.
jmg257
(11,996 posts)And in the more serious cases remove them from the general population.
Which makes me wonder why so many "law-abiding" citizens would want to join such a group by being non-compliant in the case of new firearm laws. Do they share the same selfishness and lack of social conscience?
discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,479 posts)Perhaps you need to formulate a survey to answer this question.
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)buy off gangs, including Mexico. Someone buys it even if the quality is questionable. What is the social conscience of someone who fuels and funds gang wars while pointing the finger at some deer hunter in the sticks?
jmg257
(11,996 posts)In violation of the laws, and responsible for the results of their actions.
jimmy the one
(2,708 posts)dis-ir-sar: Lots of folks favor gun control because they believe gun control laws will eliminate or severely limit violence. The term "gun control" is a misnomer for several reasons.
Your premise is the faulty misnomer, if you mean it to be guncontrol advocates in general. If you just mean 'lots of folks' like in 'hundreds of people', or maybe a lesser ten percent of guncontrol advocates, well it becomes too subjective to argue with you.
.. But I'll go with your presumed general premise, that we guncontrol advocates believe that guncontrol will 'eliminate or severely limit violence'. Nope. Never said that.
.. What we believe is that guncontrol will only, can only, have a limited marginal affect on lowering violent crime rates, comparatively to other similar sized & demographically similar cities; in other words it's better than guns galore mentality.
... we realize we can NEVER severely reduce violent crime in large urban cities with high violent crime rates like PRO GUN chattanooga tennesee with the highest violent crime rate for a US metropolitan area, less yet eliminate it -- folly, pipe dream.
Updated: May 10, 2012 The ranking pushed {very pro gun} Chattanooga's crime rate higher than Detroit and Atlanta, cities considered to be two of the most dangerous in America..
The study shows {pro gun now} St. Louis {with shall issue ccw since 2005} is number one in the country with more than 10,000 crimes per 100,000 people. {pro gun} Memphis is ranked fifth.
Both {pro gun} Chattanooga and {pro gun} Knoxville are ranked above Atlanta, Georgia
http://www.wrcbtv.com/story/13068545/chattanooga-makes-top-20-in-crime-report
thanks discontentironysarcasm for demonstrating: MORE GUNS, MORE LIES
discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,479 posts)I guess these make us even:
me:
you:
touché