Class, NOT race popping up again in GD....

[steve2470]

in this thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6178841

[Number23]

1. Yep. As it does around here again and again and again and again and again and again and again

from our "worldly," "educated" and "informed" fellow DUers.

[F4lconF16]

2. I was at a really good discussion last night

Talking about the final 6 chapters of the book "Black Liberation and Socialism" (which I hear is excellent, but haven't been able to get from the library yet). The biggest takeaway I got was that socialism (and other economic equality movements) are utterly dependent on racial equality. Capitalism thrives on oppression, and taking that oppression away is critical to ending the system. I think a lot of white liberals have not realized that yet. Same goes for all the unpaid labor women are forced to do--capitalism would break down if it valued women's and men's labor equally. Oppression of minorities and division between separable groups are fundamental to the continuation of the capitalist system.

[1StrongBlackMan]

4. I think that is a good take-away ...

And also think that those economic movements are able to arrive at that place because they seek to change the system; rather than, merely their place IN the system.

Looking at most of the "economic equality" posts of the "classism first" crowd here on DU, that doesn't seem to be the case. Rather, I get the distinct impression that they are more concerned that the system has screwed/is screwing them (i.e., their place in the system ... after all, they are educated, smart, hard working, and (the unspoken) white). This is particularly poignant when listening to their rants against the wealthy (e.g., extravagant spending); but more, in how blithely their will to "go over (every) fiscal cliff", without regard for how those beneath them on the economic ladder might suffer, because "the wealthy get tax cuts".

[heaven05]

8. +1000

[YoungDemCA]

3. Black people are far more likely to be in those lower social classes in the first place

Than white people are, so "race vs. class" is a false choice to begin with.

Also, racism respects no economic boundaries. To illustrate the point: It doesn't matter if a black man is a janitor, a manual worker, an educated professional, or the President of the United States. White society will always treat him as a BLACK janitor, or a BLACK professional, or indeed, a BLACK President. And black is always suspicious, if not threatening, to white society.

When white people on DU say, "It's not race, it's CLASS", what they're really saying is that only white poor, working and middle class people should be listened to, catered to, and have their demands met. In their view, black people and other people of color don't have their own unique and diverse issues that matter-to say nothing of PoC having to face the reality of a racist society every. Damn. Day. Of. Their. Lives.

To these self-described white "progressives", having black and brown people vote overwhelmingly and consistently Democratic is great, because it is "evidence" that the Republicans and right-wingers are racists! Yet they never expect (much less welcome!) black and brown people to issue their own demands and expectations to the progressive/Democratic community-which is ironic, when you consider that middle-class white people have NO PROBLEM in demanding, oh, say, the first Black President of the United States to do more things for them! (the middle-class white folks!)

The double standard is pretty obvious to people of color. I wish it was more obvious to more of (my fellow) white people, if nowhere else but a progressive Democratic Party-supporting community. I guess even THAT is too much to hope for...

[Behind the Aegis]

6. Very good post!

A big reason many of those discussions devolve into economics is because the topic of race is still a very difficult situation to discuss. For many 'progressives' they believe it is all about the money, when it is only a part of the problem. They are the ones who usually proclaim "the only race is the human race." When I hear that, I pretty much know what to expect, and it isn't good. Sadly, that is becoming more prevalent in people's thinking, especially the younger population. Race is too big a factor to ignore or marginalize.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

10. excellent post. nt

[Tuesday Afternoon]

13. your post should be an OP so I can K&R it. very well said.

[Number23]

14. Good gracious, how did I miss this post??!

Excellent! Every last word!

[steve2470]

15. excellent post! nt

[lovemydog]

5. It's interesting reading.

It's time to break the 'southern strategy' used by republicans. They use race as a wedge issue. It's race-bailting to my ears and mind. How can democrats appeal to white voters in the south while maintaining our commitment to both civil rights and economic equality?

[heaven05]

7. yeah, it's a typical

distraction tool from some who don't want to see the immense racial problems in this culture and how they are exploited by the RW to keep eyes off of their robbery and chicanery. I left that class argument in college. Wasn't, isn't useful in a society as racially diverse as this. Class distinctions in a culture such as Russia, pre-revolution, are applicable as a reason for distrust and animosity between people of different classes, not here. I feel.

[1StrongBlackMan]

9. I was pretty involved in that discussion ...

and encountered this:

We know from all your posts that the end point set out above would not be enough and would leave your issues unsolved. You post this over and over. In this post you assert that at that point you will be "less well off than you". I would ask what do you exactly mean by that?

You mentioned past grievances. Is this what you mean by still less well off? Do you mean that even though treated the same you till carry grievances.

and this:

The claim behind this is not that racial prejudices do not exist but that society is oppressing everyone the same except for a select few and the oppressors are served by the oppressed either blaming the other race or feeling privileged over the other race.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6180917

What does one say to such utter dreck? All I could muster, and retain my posting privileges, was:

So I will not be answering your queries ... but here is something that would be beneficial ... take each and every point you are asking me, research them and answer them for yourself. You will only accept that which comes from you.

I recall, back in law school and, again, in an Ethics course in Grad School ... we were told to pick, and write a piece in support of a topic that we felt strongly about. (The grad school assignment counted for 10% of our grade) We, then, were assigned the assignment of researching and "Answering" our piece. (The latter grad school assignment counted for 50% of our grade)

In both of the latter assignments, I learned a great deal about, my initial argument; but, more about myself.

[JustAnotherGen]

11. You will only accept that which comes from you

That's an interesting thread and your end point is perfect!

[1StrongBlackMan]

12. I'm,currently, of two minds ...

I,subsequently, agreed to answer his/her questions. But my being is screaming "don't do it" because I know it will only be wasted dots on a page ... Anyone that so blithely ignores/feigns ignorance of how the supremacist mind set that created the past's affect on the present, will never accept that fixing the economic disparity of the present without addressing the racial supremacist mind set that created the disparity, will all be for naught.

On the other hand, he/she IS being honest and should be given the benefit of the doubt.

What to do?