I am tempted - what do you think?

[qwlauren35]

I am tempted to go to GD with the truth and see what happens.

ONLY 1/4th of all black people are poor. 70+% of all black people are doing okay financially and some are millionaires.

All of this "economic justice will help end racial injustice" talk is just bullsh*t, parroted by people who are white and know nothing about racial injustice.

[steve2470]

1. be ready for "robust debate"

I'm being polite there.

[sheshe2]

7. I figured you were being polite, steve.

You meant pile on.

[steve2470]

19. yes exactly! nt

[HassleCat]

2. Wealth Gap

But the wealth gap between whites and blacks in the US is still wide, and I think it's getting wider the past couple years. As you said, economic justice will HELP end racial injustice, so that's true. I understand how it's wrong to suggest racial injustice may be addressed simply by working on economic justice, but it's definitely a component.

[daleanime]

3. "economic justice" isn't just about the poor....

working class and the disappearing middle class are included.

Racism and class problems are not the same, any one who thinks about it should be able to tell that. But they do overlap and addressing one does help ease the other. With the massive disaster that our nation is right now, does it really matter where some one starts as long as they are helping to clean it up?

[1StrongBlackMan]

6. How is giving me, an upper-middle class ...

(some might say wealthy) Black man, more money, going to ease the racism that I experience?

[daleanime]

10. And the only one you're concerned about....

is you?


One of the things that I love about Bernie is that he talks about unemployment. How it's worse then the numbers normally given, how it's worse then that for the young, and that it far worse then that for young black men. Don't you think a better chance for a job would be a bit of an improvement for them?

[qwlauren35]

12. Getting a Job vs. Staying Alive

No one wants to be poor. Most people want to have a job.

But being poor in America is not the end of the world.

Being dead, that's the end. Racism can kill you.

It's a lot like being a woman. Having a rich husband is no guarantee that you will not be physically abused. Domestic violence cuts across economic lines.

Racism cuts across economic lines.

When David gets an interview that DaShawn can't get, it's not economic injustice.

Aw heck. It's late, and this isn't worth explaining. You have your belief, we have ours. They are not the same.

[Number23]

17. Tell. IT.

It's a lot like being a woman. Having a rich husband is no guarantee that you will not be physically abused. Domestic violence cuts across economic lines.

Racism cuts across economic lines.

We have discussed. We have talked. We have screamed. We have howled this point at the moon a million, trillion times but it will NOT SINK IN.

There was a thread in GD a few days ago about how wealth disparities between the races has grown so much since the Great Recession. http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026770247 I went into the thread and noted that actually these things have been increasing for the last 50 years. I mentioned that racism is not just economic for black people. I mentioned how racism in housing and employment were to blame. I presented a link that showed that housing discrimination in 2015 was STILL GOING ON.

And after all of that, somebody saunters in and says "there can be no racial equality without economic equality" the OP and others -- even after seeing my posts -- yepped yepped this person and I just walked the fuck away. I just can't anymore. No one listens and I'm tired of talking about it.

[heaven05]

25. I'm listening!!!

[Number23]

29. Yeah, but that's because you ALREADY know!

You're listening because you don't have to! It's the people that really NEED to be listening that refuse to do so.

[heaven05]

34. exactly

and they just plain don't want to. Their white privilege and holding on to the perks of that privilege will always be more important than any pain, suffering and hunger an 'other' may feel at anytime for any reason, emotionally, psychologically and physically, at the racism and abuse of this system toward POC. Been at it for 52 years, the privilege of which I speak is much more valued today because so many without it are paying attention to it and it's obvious inequality. Have no doubt the recipients do not want to lose it. So even here, many scream of there not being that privilege and the louder they scream the more they are clinging to it is my experience here in the DU forum. Thank god people are aware, that way no more wool can be pulled over the eyes with obfuscatory logic of the privileged. My, that was fun....

[Number23]

36. Well, I just came out of qw's thread

Between the posters accusing her of being "privileged" because she wants racial justice and those accusing her of taking "swipes" at poor black people because she's saying that economic justice is not the end all cure to the racism that affects black folks of ALL classes, I'm done.

And of course the simpleton so outraged by her post that they had to start not one, but TWO separate OPs of their own because they couldn't refute anybody's points in the original thread was totally expected as well. I didn't believe that there was any point to qw posting her OP. That people here don't get it and won't. All that thread did was prove it. But it was still a hell of a read in the process.

[qwlauren35]

45. Me in past years.

Always believed in the power of message boards to reach people, especially those who are "lurkers", reading but not posting, and maybe open some eyes.

I still believe that. So I continue to try to provoke response and engage, and maybe shift a few views.

You may not be satisfied unless some percentage, maybe 40-50%, get a clue. I am happy with 1%.

[Number23]

49. It's a noble cause and I wish you all the best with it. I just think this place is a lost cause

and has been for a long time.

So many of the lights in this place left years ago and what remains represent the worse, the least educated, and the most Tea Party-ish of the "left."

[heaven05]

48. I agree

[daleanime]

35. Being poor is a slow death also....

racism all too often is a quick one, but also acts to slowly destroy potential.

I agree that we have different beliefs, but I don't see them as being in competition with each other. They seem like natural allies to me.

[Number23]

15. You completely side stepped and back flipped over 1SBM's point. And it's probably because

you are starting to see the fallacy behind your argument.

I'll post what he said to you again -- "how does giving me, a middle class black man, more money going to ease the racism I experience?"

[1StrongBlackMan]

22. You forgot the ...

&quot some might say, wealthy)" part ... we worked damned hard to get here!

[Number23]

30. Even still, the question still remains

As a wealthy black person, you may have some protections that a poor black person doesn't have. But racism will ensure that you will have a shitload of the same problems.

A wealthy woman in an abusive relationship will have resources at her disposal that a poor woman in an abusive relationship won't have. But sexism and patriarchy will ensure that they will have a shitload of the same problems.

I used to think that those who spouted the "if everyone was rich/comfortable, there would be no more social injustice" were just naive. Now I'm starting to think they may actually be fools.

[1StrongBlackMan]

33. Completely, and absolutely, agreed. n/t

[daleanime]

37. Please check my original post.....

note that I state right off the bat that the problem of racism and class problems are not the same.

I'm not 'side stepping and back flipping' 1SBM's point, I am making my point. To answer his question more directly, it doesn't. Now answer mine. Is the fact that employment for young black men insanely high a problem with racism, a class problem or both?

[Number23]

38. "Is the fact that employment for young black men insanely high a problem with racism, a class"

I don't even understand your question. It doesn't make any sense.

Why would black unemployment be a problem with class?

[daleanime]

40. When you're talking about such big levels....

and those large numbers, how can it not be a class problem? Any one who is worried about unemployment, under employment and long term unemployment and doesn't consider race while addressing the issue is....well to be blunt...an idiot.

[Number23]

41. So let me get this straight...

You've seen the countless reports that applicants with "black sounding" names get less job interviews than applicants with "white sounding" names, regardless of qualifications.

You've seen the numerous reports that black male applicants with NO CRIMINAL RECORDS get turned down for jobs more than white guys that have been to jail, regardless of qualifications.

You've seen the reports that white people tend to hire people within their networks more than people based on qualifications, which means that given 90% of white people admit to having no black friends, relatives or people of color in their networks, means that many blacks are cut out of jobs even when we are massively overqualified for them.

And you somehow conclude that this is all an issue of CLASS??

[daleanime]

43. Huh?

I haven't any studies with job applicants, but have seen some with loan applicants and housing.

Have not seen these, if you could point me to them I would appreciate it.

The same holds true for these reports.

Are we talking about the problems of 1 or 2 individuals? Unfortunately not. How do we even began to address it? Seems to me that a problem that large has to be approached from more then one angle, and yes, one of those should include large structure changes from a class preceptive.

[Number23]

44. Why don't you take some time to read some information before you come in here

and try to debate this topic with people who live and breathe this stuff on a regular basis?

This is a good place to start but please don't stop here. Keep going. http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/04/upshot/the-measuring-sticks-of-racial-bias-.html?_r=1&abt=0002&abg=0

[1StrongBlackMan]

21. No I demonstrating in, as simple a waypossible, the lie to your argument ...

of self-interested convenience.

Contrary to societal (especially, white liberal) paternal belief, the vast majority o African-Americans are NOT poor; and more, there is not a single African-American whose racism will be eased by more money ... we'll just have more money, AS we experience racism.

How much money would ease the conversation with your 7 year old daughter, when she experiences discrimination for the first time ... and blames herself (sees herself as lesser than/unworthy) for being discriminated against?

Don't you think a better chance for a job would be a bit of an improvement for them?

In terms of easing racism ... NO! Besides, creating more jobs, does not eliminate discrimination in employment, now, does it.

Bernie (and all the economics primacy folks, universe, love them) ARE looking to address a major problem, in America (economic injustice); but, they are addressing for PoC, and women, and the LGBTs, and all the other "Others", only one half of the problem.

[daleanime]

39. At the end there you're kind of making my point...

Last edited Sat Jun 6, 2015, 01:22 AM - Edit history (1)

that it is 'part' of the problem. But I do wonder why you limit class concerns to jobs and/or cash only? Wouldn't it apply equally to education, health care, voting rights, etc...?

Neither would I limit these problems only to the 'poor', most working class families are only 1 or 2 missed paychecks away from being 'poor'. Over half the people in America have less the $10,000 in saving, that places them one personal disaster away from poverty.

And also, while we need to create jobs, we need a safe live-able floor that no one is allowed to fall beneath.

[qwlauren35]

9. Economic Justice

Would not have kept Walter Scott from getting shot in the back. Economic justice would not have changed the fact that the cop thought he could cover it up.

Economic justice would not have stopped George Zimmerman from assuming that Trayvon Martin was a criminal in the wrong neighborhood, casing houses for potential theft.

Economic justice does not stop black men in Mercedes Benzes and Lexuses, that they can afford with hard earned money, from being pulled over for stupid reasons.

Frankly, economic justice is not a personal priority for me. My life will go on if we don't have economic justice. "Poverty" in America is not like poverty in Africa or India. But racial injustice could mean that my husband gets killed. For something STUPID. Like a busted tail-light and a less than subservient manner toward a cop who is having a bad day.

Bill Cosby's son got killed on the side of the road. The man is filthy rich. Didn't matter.

If someone doesn't recognize Oprah Winfrey in a store, she gets followed as a potential shop-lifter. She's a billionaire. Doesn't matter.

President Obama is one of the most powerful men in the Free World. And because of him, the Tea Party came into existence.
Economic justice wouldn't have changed this one damned bit.

So there it is. Addressing economic injustice does not help black people who are part of the 1%.

Everybody wants to have enough money to be comfortable at the very least. I get that. And I'm willing to push for a higher minimum wage, and pay equity. Those are clearly issues that people of different races can agree on, depending on their political views. But it is laughable and educational that on a website for liberal Democrats there are people who downplay racial injustice. Especially educational. It is no wonder the Republican party thinks that they can win us over. Liberal Democrats cannot be counted on to champion the cause of racial injustice.

[daleanime]

11. This post deserves a better response then I have time for now.....

I am sorry about that and will be back Friday night. Have a good night.

[Starry Messenger]

18. This.

I would love to see this as an OP.

[JustAnotherGen]

20. This right here

Is the OP.

Then perhaps we could work with our allies to craft additional arguments.

I liked the point about domestic abuse and wealthy women - same could be said for equal pay, violence in general, etc etc.

BTA has made strong arguments around the g/l community and wealth not being a protection.

[1StrongBlackMan]

23. And, as quiet as it is kept ...

So there it is. Addressing economic injustice does not help black people who are part of the 1%.

The economic injustice problem, as currently framed, won't help the vast majority of white folks, either ... It will, however, help the 10%ers, that narrowly missed the cut, close the gap with the 1%ers.

[daleanime]

42. Let's take this a step at a time....

No, it would not.

No, it would not.

No, it would not.

Yes, your life will go on. Just not as well as it should. That should change. As should the cop who should never be position to act as both judge and executioner. The desperate need to change one does not eliminate the other.

No, it didn't.

Shouldn't happen whether you're a billionaire or not.

Actually, I blame the Tea-baggers on Faux 'News'. But it definitely was the racist hatred that was stroked to create the astro-turf mock group.

Addressing economic injustice was never intended to help the 1%. But, and I'm not trying to be snarky here, are Blacks really over represented in the 1%? What about black people who are part of the 99%?

Who's downplaying racial injustice? If I have please tell me so, just remember I am slow, so please point at the exact spot where I did.

I just don't get the dispute, some one working on racism and some one working on class issues seem to me to be natural allies.

[qwlauren35]

46. OK, Allies.

Like Israel and America.

Totally different agendas, but some common ground.

Or maybe China and America. Different agendas, different economic systems, and each with a legacy of mistreating people within their lands, but a solid relationship where common ground exists.

[sheshe2]

13. No

Addressing economic justice alone will not ease my social injustice. Will it get the GOP off their war on women? Will it allow us to make decisions about our bodies? Will it veto the laws for forced ultrasound? Will we no longer be held accountable for our own rape? All the money in the world will not protect us from abuse.

We need laws and counseling and education.

Yes it matters, because trickle down justice does not work.

With the massive disaster that our nation is right now, does it really matter where some one starts as long as they are helping to clean it up?

[heaven05]

26. class

only has the effect of keeping, purposefully, POC down. And by being an oppressed minority, it is easier for the PTB to exercise their racism. With a classless society, POC will still be discriminated against, in a large way, because and only because of the color of their skin. Yours and others on here are presenting a fallacious argument. Racism will only change when those perpetuating it change their attitude or are driven out of power. Which in this society means I have 0-zero chance of seeing it happen in my time, my children's time or my grand children's time. A lot of fox snoozers need someone to hate to forget their ownmisery and the media and RW radio are very adept at giving them plenty of ammunition with the lies and BS spewed by them. Class has nothing to do with racism.

[giftedgirl77]

4. Good luck & let me know when you do so I can have your back.

Many of us have been trying to explain this to them in one form or another for a long time & usually just get shouted down or swarmed, real life examples be damned. They are convinced that they know better than us from their far off perches than we do in the relms of reality.

[jeff47]

5. They're intertwined but not exclusive.

As you point out, poverty is not close to universal. But we're not going to solve either one without doing something to address the other.

[1StrongBlackMan]

8. Go for it; but, give me a day's notice ...

so I can take the day off from work and set up in my home office.

That'll be a long day.

[Number23]

14. BOOM. Not just a long day. A LOOOONG Mother Flipping Assed Day that will require lots of booze to

recover from.

[freshwest]

16. Depends on your stamina and blood pressure. I'll look here for notice of the thread.

Not promising to add anything important. I'm struck daily by how clueless I am.

[heaven05]

24. oh someone

will get offended and alert. I hope I'm on the jury...... Lots on here just will not admit what a problem racism is, because they just do not face it, daily, like so many others do.

[giftedgirl77]

27. The blinders are clearly on in the ppl posting in the OP.

So clueless or just obtuse. Still working it though.

[giftedgirl77]

28. Your OP in GD is dead on, many of us have been actively

working to get our points across. Don't let them intimidate you or get you down. It's nice to finally have an OP that's started from our perspective.

[Number23]

31. She made an OP about this?? Where?? It's probably being drowned amid all of the NYC_SKP bereavement

threads.

Can you post a link?? Thanks gg!!

[giftedgirl77]

32. Actually it's been going really strong with all the whitesplaining

about how we are way off the mark. She even got compared to Issa.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6783758

I was wondering where you've been.

[qwlauren35]

47. I chickened out.

I did not post my original thread. I posted an expanded one.

Apparently, I hit enough hot buttons...

but the last paragraph went largely un-noticed. It was rather interesting.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

50. Tell the truth, shame the devil. You know I don't give a damn. I got your back!

[leftofcool]

51. Here is a white woman who is listening and hears you!

I know for a fact that you are correct and having a Black grand daughter I can tell you that I have experienced this first hand!

[rock]

52. I don't have an answer but I do have a question

What would you expect to be served? The answer to this question should tell you how to proceed.