***AA Group*** Black man on Reddit explains lack of enthusiasm for Senator Sanders

[steve2470]

https://www.reddit.com/r/NeutralPolitics/comments/472fj6/why_isnt_bernie_sanders_doing_well_with_black/

(on edit: here's the permalink to his post: https://www.reddit.com/r/NeutralPolitics/comments/472fj6/why_isnt_bernie_sanders_doing_well_with_black/d09sdaw )

It's the very first response, quoted in full because I don't think reddit has any copyright stuff:

Many reasons off the top of my head. Take it as you will:

Because we already know what it's like to have someone promise us the moon and leave us out to dry. Believe it or not, we actually have a great deal of experience with far left politicians and figureheads. MLK, it's argued, was a socialist. The Black Panthers were socialists. We've had these ideas and promises run up and down our communities from East to West coast, North to South.... It never pans out. We've seen assassinations, fraud, all sorts of dirty tricks... Oftentimes though, it's as simple as politicians flat out lying to us. Bernie Sanders isn't new. So all these promises sound great and all, but they all sound like pipe dreams.

Who is he? No, not saying "black people haven't heard of Bernie Sanders", I mean, who is Bernie Sanders? He's this guy from Vermont apparently that claims he was very active in the Civil Rights movement but has been auspiciously absent from just about every black struggle since then. Suddenly he's on the national stage and all these people are saying, "well, he was there with you in the 60's so you should be with him now". Uh huh, and where has he been since? I honestly can't believe people would actually try and say what Sanders and his supporters say to black people with a straight face. Like we owe him something. Here's the truth, a LOT of people were involved in the CRM. Many went on to lead illustrious careers in politics and government. Some became real usurpers and phonies, others never stopped working for the community. Others simply moved on. The ones that the black community supports the most are people who went on to politics and government and never stopped working for the Black community. They represent us to this day. They give back to our communities. They speak out for us etc etc.... Suddenly Sanders wants to come around after 50 so years and cash in on some credit he has from the 60's and his supporters are demanding support as if he's been a champion of our community all this time? Nah son. Doesn't work that way.

His supporters, again, have done him no favors. His supporters are rabid. Especially true online. When the BLM thing happened, holy shit, the racism and venom was unbelievable. These people were supposed to be progressive too... But all you read was how stupid we were, nigger this and coon that. Even now, those same people are making passive aggressive (or flat out aggressive) comments towards black people for not supporting bernie enough or those who say they support Hillary. Black people are on the Internet, folks. We see exactly what you see when we read the comments section on news sites, on Reddit, on tumblr, on Twitter, on Instagram or on Facebook etc.

Black people aren't as liberal as a lot of people think we are. We just don't vote republican. But we are HUGE on church. We aren't comfortable supporting gay rights and we really aren't comfortable with atheism. Again, Idk if there's sources (I'm sure there should be- look at how CA went for Prop 8 in 2008 on basically the backs of black turnout) for this but I'm just speaking as someone who IS black and IS active in his community and has been all his life. As far as politics go, we're pretty moderate, if not straight conservative.

We LOVE the Clinton's. Again. We LOVE the Clinton's. Bill is the nigga and Hillary is a G haha but seriously, they're basically heroes for us and honorary black people to many black people. And it's rightfully earned. People always point to the crime laws as how we should be against them, but there ignorant of the fact that WE SUPPORTED THOSE CRIME LAWS. Man, the 90's were CRAZY. People were getting smoked for wearing Starter jackets and getting jacked for shoes. You couldn't go into certain neighborhoods or parts of the city if you didn't know someone who would vouch for you. And if you had on the wrong color, it was wraps. People were getting killed left and right. Innocent people too. Sitting in their living rooms watching tv and little kids were catching stray bullets through the eyes. The 80's and 90's were HELL. We were pissed off that the government wasn't helping us. Of course we wanted these gangsters and thugs locked up... WTF? Are we HAPPY that the laws unintended consequences ended up locking more of us up disproportionately? No. But no one can say with a straight face that, when those laws were written, Bill Clinton's goal was to lock up all black people. And Hillary's super predator comments? Bruh, that shit was real! It's surreal to watch urban white yuppies tell us what we should be outraged about. You never lived in our hoods. There sure as shit were young ass kids in middle school and high school that were out bangin and they were stone cold killers. Let me repeat that one more time: there absolutely were people on the streets, young ass kids too, that would have no qualms with jacking a couple, shooting an old lady through the lung and watching her bleed out. I'm talking about stoniest of the cold killers. Baby killers. Infant killers. Some of these thugs had no soul bruh, the brutality is something I've noticed a lot of white Americans are just completely ignorant or unaware of. That shit was absolutely accurate! And every time I hear shit like this from Bernie supporters my only reaction is, "damn... You really don't know". Dude, the 80's and 90's were HORRIBLE for black people and the ONLY people in government that seemed to care were the Clinton's. They fought HARD and passed the gun laws. They passed the crime bills that cleaned up our streets (albeit with terrible unintended consequences). They tried their best and they fought hard for us when no one else really did. Everybody was still wet off Reagan and was trying to be the next Ron. I know this is neutral politics and I'm trying to be on my best behavior, but F--- Ronald Reagan tho. Seriously. The reason me saying that matters is because, to a lot to black people, the Clinton's were the ones who had our backs after that guy ripped our communities to shreds and ruined us. Back to the point, we see the mud Bernie supporters are trying to sling on Hillary (and Bill to some extent), and it's just more of the same shit we saw in the early 90's. But Clinton had our backs in the 90's and we had his at the voting booth. And we got her back too now. She's not the same lady she was back then. She's older, obviously. But is ANYONE the same person they were 25 years ago? I'd hope not.

Just my perspective. Take it or leave it.

Edit: Tl;Dr: Probably the biggest reason is that Bernie lacks credentials in our community. Relying entirely on something you did in the 60's is something Jesse Jackson wouldn't even do. Even Jesse had to put in work. Next, equally big reason: The Clinton's are family... Plain and simple. They were the first presidents and major politicians to stand with us and pay attention to us. They weren't perfect, but their solidarity with us goes a long way. I'd even go so far as to say that if we knew about Obama what we know now, and he was going against Hillary... Hillary would get a good deal of the black vote. Not a majority. But she'd give him a good run for his money. And, boy, If it was Barack vs Bill... Welcome back Bill! Lol the Clinton's are to black people what the Reagan's are to republicans.

Edit 2: Wow, people actually gave me gold for this. Thank you so much! You could've bought tacos but you bought this stranger gold. I really appreciate that. Thank you again mystery persons!

Edit 3: Ok. This post TOOK off. I feel really bad for not including links to help support my view here, especially because the mods have worked so hard to keep this place neutral and substantive. Here are some useful links now that I'm finally on a laptop and not mobile:

NPR has a piece explaining the support Clinton enjoys amongst blacks. http://www.npr.org/2016/03/01/468185698/understanding-the-clintons-popularity-with-black-voters

Here's an article from the Atlantic: http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/02/hillary-clinton-bernie-sanders-south-carolina-black-voters/470646/

Here's a MotherJones article echoing what I said about support for the Clinton's and especially Hillary's fight for tighter gun laws http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2016/02/24/3752347/mothers-hillary-clinton/

Here are some articles with good analysis of the odd paradox of blacks in the democratic party and how they are more conservative than their white peers despite loyally voting democrat. This was in 2008, an election that had eerily similar racial undertones as this current one in angering liberal white democrats when blacks came out in droves to vote for Obama and vote for democrats across the board, but also delivered the right a crucial victory by voting in FAVOR of prop 8 making marriage between one man and one woman. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/06/AR2008110603880.html

http://articles.latimes.com/2008/nov/08/local/me-gayblack8

A good article talking about black support for the crime bills http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/crime/2016/02/why_many_black_politicians_backed_the_1994_crime_bill_championed_by_the.html

to shadowblossom for helping me read this!

On edit: For the record, the reason why I posted this is because I want my fellow Sanders supporters to understand the PoC community better. If this post has accomplished this, then I feel good about what I've done. If Sanders loses the primaries (which I think he will), I'll be happy to support and vote for Secretary Clinton in the GE. I already voted for Sanders in my Florida primary, which he lost.

[Wilms]

1. Thanks for the comments and links.

I've got reading to do.

I'd like to point out that Sanders did vote for the 1994 Crime Bill in the same many CBC members did; that is, despite the draconian measures it included.

[Wilms]

10. Here are Sanders remarks about the Crime Bill.

Congressional Record Volume 140, Number 39

Wednesday, April 13, 1994

Mr. Speaker, let me begin with a profound remark: Two plus two equals four.

In other words, there is a logical and rational process called cause and effect. In terms of Newtonian physics, that means that every action causes an equal and opposite reaction. In other words, Mr. Speaker, there are reasons why things happen, as controversial as that statement may be.

A farmer neglects to tend and care for his fields—it is likely that the crop will fail.

A company neglects to invest in research and development—it is likely that the company will not be profitable.

In a similar way, Mr. Speaker, a society which neglects, which oppresses and which disdains a very significant part of its population—which leaves them hungry, impoverished, unemployed, uneducated, and utterly without hope, will, through cause and effect, create a population which is bitter, which is angry, which is violent, and a society which is crime-ridden. This is the case in America, and it is the case in countries throughout the world.

Mr. Speaker, how do we talk about the very serious crime problem in America without mentioning that we have the highest rate of childhood poverty in the industrialized world, by far, with 22 percent of our children in poverty and 5 million who are hungry today? Do the Members think maybe that might have some relationship to crime? How do we talk about crime when this Congress is prepared, this year, to spend 11 times more for the military than for education; when 21 percent of our kids drop out of high school; when a recent study told us that twice as many young workers now earn poverty wages as 10 years ago; when the gap between the rich and the poor is wider, and when the rate of poverty continues to grow? Do the members think that might have some relationship to crime?

Mr. Speaker, it is my firm belief that clearly, there are some people in our society who are horribly violent, who are deeply sick and sociopathic, and clearly these people must be put behind bars in order to protect society from them. But it is also my view that through the neglect of our Government and through a grossly irrational set of priorities, we are dooming tens of millions of young people to a future of bitterness, misery, hopelessness, drugs, crime, and violence. And Mr. Speaker, all the jails in the world, and we already imprison more people per capita than any other country, and all of the executions in the world, will not make that situation right. We can either educate or electrocute. We can create meaningful jobs, rebuilding our society, or we can build more jails. Mr. Speaker, let us create a society of hope and compassion, not one of hate and vengeance.

https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CREC-1994-04-13/html/CREC-1994-04-13-pt1-PgH49.htm

[steve2470]

19. my pleasure! nt

[Surya Gayatri]

2. K & R. Thanks for posting. Extremely interesting reading, even for this lily-white 70-year-old.

[steve2470]

20. my pleasure! nt

[jtuck004]

4. Why stand on the shoulders of giants when you can blame the victims, eh?

You tell us "Some of these thugs had no soul bruh" so we can dismiss these folks as less than human by calling them names. Got it. Thank you for giving us permission to continue to rely on our racial bias, and see black folks as less than, You help a lot.

But lots of people have profited from that very same viewpoint. Heck, I can go in an doughnut shop full of white folk and hear the same stuff any day of the week. Haven't helped anyone else as much as themselves, perhaps, but they sure agree with you.

So perhaps you are having some impact.

...And every now and then some black public figure will reignite this debate by repeating these tired tropes that traffic in racist assumptions of black life and culture. Enter Charles Barkley.

"We as black people are never going to be successful, not because of you white people, but because of other black people. When you are black, you have to deal with so much crap in your life from other black people….For some reason we are brainwashed to think, if you’re not a thug or an idiot, you’re not black enough. If you go to school, make good grades, speak intelligent, and don’t break the law, you’re not a good black person. It’s a dirty, dark secret in the black community….There are a lot of black people who are unintelligent, who don’t have success. It’s best to knock a successful black person down because they’re intelligent, they speak well, they do well in school, and they’re successful. It’s just typical BS that goes on when you’re black, man."

Bill Cosby said it, Don Lemon keeps saying it, Jason Riley has a whole book about it. The greatest barrier to black success, according to this reasoning, is the host of bad black people who refuse to get their shit together and would rather bring every other black person down with them than to pick up a book. The language is more polite than when Chris Rock was calling them n–gers, but not by a significant margin.

It doesn’t matter how much debunking is done, because this strain of respectability politics is easy to comprehend, fits neatly into our racist system, and has the potential to be lucrative. You won’t go broke by taking up the chastisement of “bad blacks” as a career. You may lose your soul, but you can just go buy a new one with the cash from your book deal/radio show/TV pundit gig/speaking fees.

What bothers me just as much, if not more, than the profitability of this line of thinking, is that anyone who engages in it (Barkley, Lemon, Riley or whoever) positions him- or herself as some sort of exalted truth teller, revealing the secrets black America is too afraid to face. They won’t touch the truth of how white supremacy has dictated the contours of black American life, but telling kids to pull up their pants and stop acting like “thugs” is right up their alley.
...

http://www.alternet.org/culture/why-do-african-american-superstars-chris-rock-and-bill-cosby-go-out-their-way-stigmatize

I will continue to think you, and they, could do better, but perhaps you are right. Please proceed...

[Bassomar]

5. Haha

Leave it is.

[BumRushDaShow]

6. Agree with alot although not all

which establishes that we are not a monolith but do come to consensus amongst ourselves regarding certain issues. I know that I am not "in love with" the Clintons but I do know that there is a decades-long relationship by them in the "personal/cultural spaces" of many in the black community (notably southerners).

The comment of note -

Because we already know what it's like to have someone promise us the moon and leave us out to dry.

IMHO the issue here is pragmatism and ability to "work the system". In many cases, we have heard the "promises" and the "proposals", but most require actions that the candidate cannot deliver unless they "work with" or "compromise with" or "shame" Congress into enacting the legislation that enables the proposals. Sadly and often, this requires all the most egregious behaviors often railed against on DU - "backroom deals" and legislative tricks. But having skilled negotiators in there often yields success - not perfect but certainly not zero. And at this point, save armed revolution or a complete blowout in the elections, where Democrats obtain the level of super-majorities that FDR had briefly during parts of his 4 terms, this is the way it has to be.

[LittleGirl]

7. that thread on reddit is now locked eom

[Cha]

8. Thank you, steve!

[steve2470]

17. my pleasure! nt

[Rafale]

9. Gotta admit Hill-Dog's info ops are solid

Nice use of 1999s "street" vernacular to create an aura of "authenticity."

Maybe this link will refresh some memories. Sanders has done far more positive actions for women and minorities than the Clintons and those actions span decades in a consistent and deliberate manner through this year. I'll be damn if I'm going to let some boiler room info op from the HRC camp muddle the issue. The Clinton policies have hurt the Black community and regrettably the Black community has been slow to see who and what caused the pain from both major parties.

Sanders' policies represent everything that MLK Jr was about to argue for just before they killed him. We do need to support Sanders before the opportunity is gone again. The older set will of course be the slowest to understand Sanders could represent a new paradigm.

http://www.alternet.org/election-2016/20-examples-bernie-sanders-powerful-record-civil-and-human-rights-1950s

Black lives matter.

[steve2470]

18. you have no proof of your allegation that that person is a Secretary Clinton operative

I could allege you are a troll from the RNC. See how that works ? Good day.

For the jury: I am NOT alleging he/she is a troll from the RNC. AFAIK, he/she is a good Democrat.

[Rafale]

29. Are you sure you're a Democrat?

Because to me you sound like Joe McCarthy or someone from Fox "News". WHiskey Tango Foxtrot?

Why not ask me how long I've been beating my wife, too? Wow.

[TowneshipRebellion]

30. Word.

nt.

[leftofcool]

11. Excellent post. Thank you.

[steve2470]

21. my pleasure! nt

[mikehiggins]

12. That makes a lot more sense than "stockholm syndrome"

For what its worth, I've always cringed when people talk about the "monolithic" aspect of any group. Of course there will be AAs who see the Clintons in different ways. When the media babbles on and on about blind loyalty to any politician that, to me, is racist in itself.

Many who were alive in the 90's believe the Clinton's did a lot of good for the AA community. I don't particularly agree but I also don't need to paint everyone with the same brush. If I was faced with a choice between the most famous woman in the world and a pretty thoroughly obscure Senator from Brooklyn via Vermont my choice might be a lot harder.

So, even though I disagree with the Reddit author's position I applaud his/her willingness and ability to lay out a cogent explanation of why Sanders took such a drubbing down South.

Kudos.

[Dawgs]

13. It's like a keep telling everyone.

AA's are loyal to the Clinron's and the party. It's that simple.

[lunamagica]

14. K&R. Very interesting! Thanks for posting

[steve2470]

23. my pleasure! nt

[brer cat]

15. K&R

Thanks for sharing, steve2470.

[steve2470]

22. my pleasure! nt

[awoke_in_2003]

24. "His supporters, again, have done him no favors"

very true. There is a very vocal subset of supporters who are really making the rest of us look bad. Thank you for posting this- people should be heard and not metaphorically told to shut the hell up.

[Number23]

25. I disagree with alot of this and still think it raises valid points

And Haters: Steve, the OP, is a white, male Sanders supporter So before you start with the "it's the black posters sowing racial division" bullshit, perhaps you need to understand that ALOT of people, black, white and other, are seeing what's going on and always have.

[steve2470]

26. thanks for responding, may I ask which parts you disagree with ?

I'm asking, of course, in the kindest possible spirit. My primary goal in AA is to further my comprehension. Thanks Number23!

[Number23]

27. I disagree with the "black folks are all about church" bit. That is certainly true for large swaths

of black voters but not for all. I can count on one hand the number of people that are churchified in my family and it's not a big deal among my friends either.

Black folks may not be "liberal" in the "save the whales" vein that alot of white progressives are, but black people are incredibly progressive when it comes to trying to open up parts of American structure to groups that have not had it before. But alot of black folks are, much like alot of white folks, still way too far behind when it comes to gay rights.

But this bit of the piece I agree with completely:

His supporters, again, have done him no favors. His supporters are rabid. Especially true online. When the BLM thing happened, holy shit, the racism and venom was unbelievable. These people were supposed to be progressive too... But all you read was how stupid we were, nigger this and coon that. Even now, those same people are making passive aggressive (or flat out aggressive) comments towards black people for not supporting bernie enough or those who say they support Hillary. Black people are on the Internet, folks. We see exactly what you see when we read the comments section on news sites, on Reddit, on tumblr, on Twitter, on Instagram or on Facebook etc.

Hell yes.

[Quayblue]

31. +1000 🏆 nt

[Number23]

32. Okay, you have GOT to tell me how you got that little trophy icon in your subject head!!

That is so cool!

[Quayblue]

33. I'm using the smilies from my Kindle Fire keyboard!

It's so neat! I especially to let someone know she is appreciated!!!

😘

[YoungDemCA]

35. Well said.

Thanks, Number23. How are ya doing?

[gwheezie]

28. Imho crack was whack

God help me I'm about to sound like will Smith, but the war on drugs was the war on black folks when crack was a different sentence than coke and coke showed up at parties and clubs and crack flooded the street. One was hip and the other made ya a thug. How'd crack wind up on 116th street and coke wound up at studio 54.
That's just one example I can think of off the top of my head why things got more fucked up than usual in that era.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

34. i disagree with some of these based on empirical evidence, but the article makes a great point

the specific one i'll point to is gay rights. i believe recent surveys dont show a race difference in support of gay rights.

I however completely agree that the 90's were a different time when it came to crime. most people supported more cops on the street and harsher penalties.