Religion
Related: About this forumWe need a ginormous food fight here, so let's have a frank little chat about demons
When a woman, described as a loving mother, suddenly starts strangling and stabbing her children, killing two and seriously wounding the other two, it can only be described as demonic as hell. Anyone who says, "No, that's not demonic!" just isn't thinking clearly, because it sure is some sick twisted evil. Let's go through this carefully
Some folk will object might say, "Oh, demons don't exist" or "I don't believe in demons," and others will tell us that believing in demons is really the source of the whole problem
Believing in demons, of course, is an entirely different thing from having an opinion on whether or not they exist: you can think demons don't exist and still believe in them; you can think demons exist and still not believe in them; and so on
Now the people who say, that believing in demons is really a problem, are right; when you believe in demons, you give those demons power over you. So you ought never ever believe in demons. That's true whether or not demons exist, and it's also true whether or not you think demons exist. But plenty of people, who don't think demons exist, still believe in demons; they just express themselves using different words. Demons are crafty and creative liars, doing everything they can to delude you until you're completely lost and confused: just to keep you off-guard, some (for example) may convince you they don't exist at the very same time they're convincing you to believe in them -- there really is no end to the games they might try to play
Demons are parasites. They do not exist alone: they need to feed on somebody. And, if you pay attention, you'll notice they constantly flitter through your mind, hoping for a place to perch and grow. Many parents, for example, have had the passing idea of strangling their children. But most don't let such ideas catch any toehold in their minds: they immediately laugh it off Hah! and continue their ordinary daily lives. Simply laughing at them may often starve your own demons -- and this can sometimes be a better response than fighting directly, because all the time and energy you spend, thinking that you're fighting a demon, might actually be feed it
It is common for people to think they can address other people's demons. This, however, is not true: we can only actually address our own. The relation between a demon and its prey is individual, and the only person who can stop feeding a particular demon is the person who is feeding it. We may, nevertheless, more often see demons in others than in ourselves, for various reasons. One reason is that our own demons may damage our discernment so that, when we notice one of our own demons, we are misled into thinking we are noticing someone else's demon; another reason is that our own demons may encourage us to notice the demons that others are feeding so that we overlook the demons we ourselves are feeding
It is often possible to help people understand how to stop feeding their demons, if they want to stop feeding them, but this is no simple matter -- not only because, although we are all deceived and confused in various ways, we are not all deceived and confused in the same way, so that your escape, from a deception and confusion of your own, need not provide me with a reliable map for escaping from the deceptions and confusions of my own -- but also because the demons I think I see in you may actually be my own demons or, if I actually see your demons, I may see them only because my demons somehow feed on the fact that I see those particular demons in you. So the whole enterprise is fraught with real perils that must be recognized
This is only an introduction to a subject, on which much more might be said. We are not immune to demons, even if we do not believe in them, and even if they do not exist at all, because we ourselves commonly feed them in various ways, by believing in them, or by imagining that we can fight them off, or by thinking that only others suffer from them, and so on. We cannot be cured of them by any magic: we are cured only when we cease feeding them; and so such cure cannot come, absent our own real desire to be cured. For the same reason, to imagine that we ourselves have the power to cure others of their demons is a crass confusion and delusion, which can unfortunately feed our own demons -- but there are also many other ways we feed our own demons
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Scuba
(53,475 posts)
cbayer
(146,218 posts)I think some people with serious psychiatric illnesses are plagued with demons as you describe them, but they can not rid themselves of them by doing what you suggest.
In those case, I think the demons can be addressed by others and more often than not have to be. Some people need that help to rid themselves of what is plaguing them.
And I think that was most likely the case in the horrific incident you introduce at the beginning.
It also helps understand why psychiatric patients often adopt religious language and thoughts to describe and try to understand what is happening to them. These patients may or may not be religious when well, but they often describe being possessed when they are sick.
But putting psychiatric patients aside, I think your piece speaks wisely to what a person free of serious illness can do when their demons start to come into play.
It's hard work, and sometimes you need someone to walk down that path with you, not leading you, but walking alongside you (or even a little behind). But I agree that in those cases only the individual can truly cast them off.
Enjoyed reading this. Very thought provoking and something I need to remind myself of more often.
get the red out
(13,462 posts)We are in such need of better mental health care in this country, and more access to it.
Lumping some horrific crimes under "religion" neglects this need. People who are in the midst of a mental health crisis often grab hold of religious definitions for things going on inside their own minds, like you said, I have witnessed this in a young relative who was suffering from bi-polar disorder, though he did not show violent tendencies as a result.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)becomes critical to look at it carefully. In most cases it is the illness that is driving the religiosity and not the other way around (though that can happen).
The difficulty obtaining any kind of adequate evaluation and treatment is so disgracefully abysmal in this country, that some people will turn to the church or religious leaders for help. While many are trained in counseling, they are not mental health professionals and can't begin to provide what is so desperately needed.
Some one recently posted in this group about their experiences during a psychotic episode. It was a brave and revealing post. He talked about the religious delusions that he developed during his illness and how he was completely free of any religious ideas when well. It was fascinating.
Jim__
(14,075 posts)cbayer
(146,218 posts)If they used religious terminology to describe what was happening to them, that doesn't mean that religion drove their illness.
And even if it fed it, the illnesses are separate issues that really demanded a non-religious intervention.
In the end, this is all about psychiatric illness and not at all about religion.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)you run to the other extreme (that it was 0% religion).
Can't it be a mix of both? That's my position. I don't see things in just black and white.
Jim__
(14,075 posts)Religious belief in exorcism had no role whatsoever?
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)trotsky
(49,533 posts)Otherwise, no, I don't think it is an *intended* part of an exorcism and never claimed otherwise.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Feeding off each other, making each worse.
rug
(82,333 posts)
Brettongarcia
(2,262 posts)Last edited Wed Jan 29, 2014, 10:30 AM - Edit history (1)
One famous case: Festinger's study of "cognitive dissonance" looked into a religious cult, as an example of Denial, in effect. When its prophesies did not come true, Festinger traced a pattern of rationalization and denial in the cultmembers.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)that this an example of "religious nuttery".
trotsky
(49,533 posts)but simply the result of the hatred that a small group of people have toward atheists who won't be silenced by bullies.
If you or I had used the term "religious nuttery" there would be a crowd gathered with pitchforks. I am glad these threads happened - it certainly has shined a light on the hypocrites.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)the claims of any religionists and apologists here to want civil and meaningful discussion of anything. They're incapable of the most basic intellectual integrity, and have nothing to argue with but unsubstantiated insults and bile.
rackman89
(1 post)I am religious and I will be happy to have a civil and meaningful discussion. I will debate with you, but will not insult you. I will not be offended if you disagree with me on any (or all) topics.
With that said, what would you like to discuss?
cbayer
(146,218 posts)Civil discussion and debate is what many here strive for.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)What's your opinion on the belief that demons can possess people and that they can be driven out via exorcism?
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)Just a guy with a busy schedule..or sock puppet?
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)What is your opinion of a church that promotes and reinforces the belief that demons and demonic possession are real?
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)is that you actually discuss things. That you don't invite discussion when you're not actually willing to participate in one.
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)Lot of truth in the OP 
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)are you really so deluded as to think that something is going to go away here? Just because we're "marginalized" around the bayer dinner table, while your legions of followers flock to support your banner in here?
Brettongarcia
(2,262 posts)hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)The point is to remove evil spirits. Killing the oerson violates the tenants of all the religions I know.
Brettongarcia
(2,262 posts)hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)trotsky
(49,533 posts)Jesus took demons out of people and cast them into pigs, and then killed the pigs.
Do you believe that really happened?
Brettongarcia
(2,262 posts)Thus removing the "demons" or bad entities from their midst
By the way though? The story in the news suggests that this was an exorcism "gone wrong"; carried too far?
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)trotsky
(49,533 posts)Other people have different beliefs than you do.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)trotsky
(49,533 posts)Those people's faith.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)trotsky
(49,533 posts)It's an unfortunately all-too-common incident. Person performs exorcism, victim dies. I think it is certainly within the realm of religious belief that someone can think they need to inflict serious wounds on a person in order to get rid of demons. I know it's well within the realm of religious belief that god can heal wounds too - perhaps they believe that will happen when the demon leaves?
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)trotsky
(49,533 posts)Do you believe he can bring them back from the dead?
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)the dead. I believe in medical science for healing physically.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)The almost-dead, sometimes. At least as far as we know right now.
Medical science cannot always heal, either.
Do you believe your god could heal someone, or resurrect them, if he chose to? Or his ability to do that gone now?
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)I do not believe God chooses who gets sick and dies. I do not believe he heals people physically but spiritually.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)I think that some people not only believe their god CAN heal the sick and bring back the dead, but that he does it even today. Would you agree with that statement?
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)trotsky
(49,533 posts)I mean it's an official part of Catholic dogma, and they're the largest Christian church on the planet.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)trotsky
(49,533 posts)may have to be restrained or subdued in order to conduct the exorcism. It doesn't really lay out particulars on what that entails.
Now imagine with these religious beliefs in place:
1) Demons and evil spirits are real, and can possess people.
2) The process or exorcism can remove them, which may involve physical confrontation with the possessed.
3) God can heal people and even bring them back from the dead.
It's pretty easy to see how exorcism deaths could occur, isn't it? Especially with the wide range of opinions on what exorcism is, and what the exact process should be? Add in the belief that one could be battling Satan himself, and you can imagine the urgency and emotion that might come over someone.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)But I would say that exorsism is not designed to murder people.. That being said things can get out of control and clearly this did.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Even the RCC tries to keep a lot of its details secret. Add in the right mixture of other beliefs - including the sincere belief that god could bring any person back from the dead - and it's not too hard to see how an individual might feel that even if they inflict a fatal wound on a person who is possessed by Satan, that if it gets rid of Satan, and god can resurrect the victim, that it would be justified.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)The Catholic Priest recites certain prayers and follows procedures listed in the ritual of the exorcism revised by the Vatican in 1999. Seasoned exorcists use the Rituale Romanum as a starting point, not always following the prescribed formula exactly.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)trotsky
(49,533 posts)What I did say was:
Add in the right mixture of other beliefs - including the sincere belief that god could bring any person back from the dead - and it's not too hard to see how an individual might feel that even if they inflict a fatal wound on a person who is possessed by Satan, that if it gets rid of Satan, and god can resurrect the victim, that it would be justified.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Brettongarcia
(2,262 posts)Anthropology tells us that many cultures have rituals and acts intended to exclude "unclean" things, and people. There is a spectrum of such things: rites of exorcising "demons," seem fairly continuous in the Old Testament, with finally just executing persons with unclean ideas in them. As Moses executes those who worship the golden calf.
So where does a Christian know where to stop? If Christians read mostly the Old Testament, exorcising demons and killing demonic persons are presented as essentially made of the same cloth.
Modern Catholicism to be sure, today often restricts any such linkage. But anyone just reading the Bible, especially the Old Testament, could slip up, and follow the old prescriptions there.
Many of our present day rituals seem harmless to some. But they retain linkages to a dark past. Linkages that can surface, unexpectedly, if someone is not very careful.
There is always a ticking time bomb, a dark spirit, underneath even modern Catholicism say. And when the Church began recently to dig up old ideas like Exorcism ... that dark spirit begins to suddenly emerge.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)This god of yours is just overflowing with love and compassion. I think a much better answer is that we humans invented gods to explain the world we live in, and that explanation worked for a while, a long while, but as our understanding of our reality grew, the ancient explanations ceased to explain much of anything. "god died", metaphorically of course as gods never existed, in the modern world as the enlightenment outgrew the need for the ancient myths and legends. God can't act in the world to heal anyone, because god only exists in our minds.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Brettongarcia
(2,262 posts)Democracy is quite tolerant of different beliefs. But not beliefs that lead to criminal behavior, say.
So we need to look to see if your beliefs are good. If they don't seem good, we try to tell you so.
Even the Bible said that often "false" and bad things, "false spirits," will seem good, seem to be from God, to many people.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Huh?
PassingFair
(22,434 posts)cbayer
(146,218 posts)And it sad that anyone would use this enormous tragedy as an example of religion gone bad.
These poor women may have turned to their church, as in the US there is often no where else to turn.
But clearly they needed something more.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)from religion gone bad (or religion operating exactly as intended for that matter), or that people should just STFU about the religious underpinnings when it happens (increasing the likelihood that it will happen again) that's really disgraceful.
rug
(82,333 posts)In short, classic disruption.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)when you're arguing from ridiculous false premises, isn't it?
trotsky
(49,533 posts)when their position isn't consistent in the first place.
Brettongarcia
(2,262 posts)For them, all problems that might seem to come from religion, actually just come from deviating from the one right, good one. The one true religion. Which seems to be roughly, a sort of spiritualized version of the New Testament; and not the Old.
But there are many problems with both cbayer and Rug telling us over and over, that those who criticize religion, just don't know religion well enough; that in effect they don't know the "right," the "real" one.
The first problem is that 1) whatever it is that today's "real" and "True" Christianity is, most religionists do not seem to exactly know what it is, to describe it.
But especially? 2) Real religion has dark biblical roots historically; that constantly (and inevitably?) come to the surface. "Real" religion might be comfortable with peaceable exorcism; but underneath the peaceable version, is the murderous ethnic/spiritual cleansing. Always ready to re-surface.
And I suggest, there 3) are internal problems even with the "right," the "real" spirituality in itself, and in particular (James 2.14-26).
Modern religion looks nice and clean and perfect to many of its own advocates. Any bad thing in religion they claim just comes from people misunderstanding the one true path.
However? Underneath all this privileged divine and perfect purity, we will see, are many problems. Vanity being not the least of them.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)You are completely off base here. If you have any questions about what I think, please feel free to ask me, but don't assume you know what I think or feel.
You couldn't be more wrong about what I think.
Talk about vanity. This post is vanity in spades.
Brettongarcia
(2,262 posts)This assumes there is a "good" religion; one that works.
Moreover you constantly pose this situation. Religion per se is not delusional you said; only bad religion. Only religion distorted by mental illness.
I do not presume to speak for you; I'm just drawing out the logical implications of your constant statements. Which you may or may not clearly see, or choose to speak about.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)You are distorting and/or misreading what I am saying.
Do not speak for me. I find you very difficult to follow and your posts confusing and disorganized.
Perhaps because you appear to think very differently than I do, you are misinterpreting what I say as they go through your own filters.
I can assure you with certainty that many of the things you have said that I think and feel are categorically incorrect.
So don't draw out any implications, whether you think they are logical or not.
Thanks.
Brettongarcia
(2,262 posts)This would seem to imply that some religion is "good." Or at least, not destructive.
If some religion is not delusional, then it would be nice to know which is good. And why.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)I object to religious people being labeled with psychiatric terms based merely on their being religious.
I understand that "delusional" can be used in a less specific way and not meant to indicate a psychiatric symptom, so I have started to ask for clarity.
Not surprisingly, most people who say it do indeed mean that they think religious people have a psychiatric disorder. And those that don't are still using it in a pejorative way to denigrate religious believers in most cases.
Delusions are neither good nor bad, they are merely symptoms. I don't even know why you would try to relate the two.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)that a person could be possessed by supernatural beings, and that those beings could be driven out by a specific religious ritual?
Ummm...that would be from religion. There are all different degrees of mental illness and delusion, and in some cases, if religious organizations did their best to dispel false beliefs instead of feeding them, it would make a difference.
Is believing that if you handle poisonous snakes and are a true believer you won't be harmed (because the Bible tells you so) a delusion? A psychiatric disorder? If someone does that and gets bitten and dies, was it 100% due to mental illness, or did religion have something to do with it?
When was the last time you heard of a mentally ill atheist kill their child trying to purge demons from them by exorcism?
rug
(82,333 posts)Command hallucinations use whatever is handy.
A woman saw a typewriter type a message to kill her mother. A blank sheet of paper was found wedged far up the vagina of her mother's body.
Arguments based on post hoc ergo propter hoc are quite stupid.
struggle4progress
(118,281 posts)I have ever made to express any notion whatsoever in demonological language, I think it would only be silly for me to pretend to have any definite well-formed ideas connecting the idea of demons to modern psychiatry or psychology: it seems likely, that in the pre-scientific age, what we now call "mental illness" might sometimes have been understood in terms of "demonic possession" -- but beyond such possible overlap of some cases, I'm not sure whether modern notions of mental illness could coincide exactly with, or could contain or be contained by, any of the many various pre-scientific traditions of demonology
If your point is (say) that mental health status, as measured by some psychological resilience, or pschiatric robustness, might affect a person's ability to make good decisions, taking into account a variety of conflicting ideas and weighing them appropriately to obtain desirable outcomes, then I am inclined to agree with you
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Now add a set of beliefs that specifically do NOT rely on reason or evidence, that in fact openly fly in the face of both and are sometimes even lauded when they do, and it's like pouring gasoline on a fire.
I think those who deny the flammable nature of gasoline in those situations, and viciously attack those trying to point it out, are making the problem worse.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)religious cause. That led many religious leaders to be the sole people available to try and care for those who were suffering
Then, of course, we moved along to the barbers and such who started drilling holes in people's heads, lol. But that's another story.
I don't think we disagree at all here and I think you do a great job with your OP. I merely wanted to point out that there are some who can't control their demons, no matter how much they want to. Too often, psychiatric patients are met with a "pull yourself up by your own bootstraps" approach, which is generally an utter failure.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)It, after all, supposes the superiority of the Democratic point of view and that the Republican point of view is wrong, and Republicans should be corrected.
Indeed one might say that you are arguing we have no right to legitimately disagree with anyone on any topic lest we "feed our own demons."
rug
(82,333 posts)Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)Now the little buggers have got you throwing them scraps. We need to put them on a restricted diet. Might stunt their growth and less bloody than stabbing them
rug
(82,333 posts)Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)That's all I got. Wow.
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)
muriel_volestrangler
(101,311 posts)Some people think of a demon as an external supernatural force that can possess someone. Quite a lot think that, in the USA - about half of the population:
http://yougov.co.uk/news/2013/09/27/18-brits-believe-possession-devil-and-half-america/
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)if you'd lived in the US as long as I did, maybe you'd understand the difference why. That place is "possessed". 
struggle4progress
(118,281 posts)to sort out my reactions to your proposed translation "demons are evil aspects of ourselves," the problem being that "the self" as a subject experiences the world, as an object acts upon the world and is acted upon by the world, and as a free agent makes decisions about interpretation of experience and chooses how to act, none of these being independent of the other: "the self" can subjectively experience itself both as objectively limited by itself and the world and also as having free agency, while choices made by "the self" affect how "the self" experiences itself and the world, and such choices have certain objective consequences for "the self" as well
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)belief in demonic possession is an extreme example of religious nuttery. It had nothing whatsoever to do with this incident.
Meshuga
(6,182 posts)And those who believe in possession by supernatural demons will likely believe that exorcism is a possible solution.
The Montgomery county case shows us that mental illness combined with the belief in supernatural demon(s) is not a good combination.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)muriel_volestrangler
(101,311 posts)and 36% don't know. So that's about 33% of the whole population who both believe in possession, and that exorcism has power against it.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)in demons came from religion. Not one bit.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Thus spake Doctor cbayer.
riqster
(13,986 posts)We can give then power over ourselves, or we can choose to subdue them and work towards virtue.
If someone is sick, perhaps those demons could take control without their permission.
longship
(40,416 posts)I just don't have anything to say about it beyond that point.
libodem
(19,288 posts)I like the woo.
struggle4progress
(118,281 posts)
libodem
(19,288 posts)Bring on the spooks.
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)Demons come in all forms, regardless of belief. But I think, at times, drugs can be effective, by either reducing them or creating them.
struggle4progress
(118,281 posts)
underpants
(182,788 posts) struggle4progress
(118,281 posts) Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)you can learn a few things:
it seems the only place on the internets that is in denial regarding the maryland exorcism being an exorcism is the du religion group.
you guys are special!
there are at least eight or so other documented exorcism deaths in the last 60 or so years, many of them conducted by religious officials.
rug
(82,333 posts)Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)rug
(82,333 posts)There are reasons why the insanity, or not responsible due to mental illness, defense exists.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)rug
(82,333 posts)Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)Well Rug that is indeed an astounding claim. It seems that you have narrowed down the symptoms of psychosis to ones that are extremely easy to test. Just have the psychotic person write a coherent paragraph. If one is forthcoming, not psychotic. The psychiatric community will be in awe. All this time they have been searching for the holy grail of psychosis diagnosis, and now you've found it!
Here is a clue: psychosis is complex, there are many forms, many different symptoms, incoherence is one possible symptom, but certainly not essential to a diagnosis. Many psychotic people can in fact perform all sorts of complex tasks, some even while they are having hallucinations and delusions. They can drive cars, cook meals, say prayers, most likely some have conducted RCC mass, all sorts of normal human activities are possible. Some can even perform unsanctioned exorcisms.
Thanks for finally getting back to me!
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)rug
(82,333 posts)Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)that contained rather extraordinary implications, but when asked to clarify those statements, to be specific about the implications, would instead ramble off a serious of irrelevant diversions. Even when asked repeatedly to make clear the points it seems this person was trying to make, no clarifications were ever produced. One just has to wonder why this person participates on a discussion board, as this person clearly has no interest in discourse.
rug
(82,333 posts)I wouldn't want to conclude you're peddling bullshit.
Response to struggle4progress (Original post)
Post removed
struggle4progress
(118,281 posts)Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)brain illnesses and disorders?
Will you actually answer my questions this time, or avoid them like you did the questions I had about your views on homosexuality?
struggle4progress
(118,281 posts)the relation of mental illness to such news stories. For this story, I have already pointed out in the othe thread that "the prosecutor noted Avery has a history of psychological problems and Sanford has a history of suicide attempts; he sought psychiatric evaluations"
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)need help in dealing with their brain disorders and diseases.
Also, if you don't want to be attacked, don't spout opinions that are atrocious.
struggle4progress
(118,281 posts)"mental illness" might sometimes have been understood in terms of "demonic possession"
And I have also declined in this thread to claim "modern notions of mental illness could coincide exactly with, or could contain or be contained by, any of the many various pre-scientific traditions of demonology"
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)That's fantastic, but does Avery agree? Probably not.
You toss out Avery's history of mental illness as if that somehow absolves religion of any part in the matter, as if it is an all-or-none proposition between the two.
It isn't.
Avery may very well have a mental disorder, but she didn't come up with the idea of demons or possession all by her fucking onesies. Her delusion is of religious origin, and whether or not your reading of demons is allegorical is completely and utterly beside the fucking point. The majority of Americans disagree, which means, ipso facto, there's millions of people out there who would confirm, if not fucking encourage Avery's delusion.
Whether it encouraged Avery's delusion or discouraged her from seeking help, any way you cut it religion has a place in this conversation. If you are being attacked for anything it is because of your nascent denialism of this seemingly obvious fact.
struggle4progress
(118,281 posts)and could battle demons in other people, and she reportedly had the idea that these demons, that she thought she saw, could be driven away by choking or stabbing other people
Dorian Gray
(13,493 posts)suffers from delusions and paranoid schizophrenia. She's on various hardcore meds and seeks psychiatric help. She's on top of it. And she's non-religious. Yet, when not medicated, she sees demons.
It's not an uncommon thing for people with serious psychiatric disorders to experience this.
I don't believe it is caused by religious indoctrination.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Or did she learn about them through culture, and the cultural institution that first placed them into the marketplace of ideas?
Dorian Gray
(13,493 posts)nor has she ever belonged to a church (in her adult life). Since I've known her.
I think we'd all have to be brain dead not to have heard of demons. But it isn't religious indoctrination.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Scientific studies?
Dorian Gray
(13,493 posts)I don't believe in demonic possession and I'm not schizophrenic. If I were, there might be a good chance that I would have hallucinations that I couldn't explain other than as ghostly or demonic, I suppose. It's cultural knowledge ingrained in society. I think that there would be non-believers who might describe said hallucinations the same way. I don't believe that it's indoctrination. The mind plays tricks on people who suffer certain disorders, and those moments can feel very frightening and horrible.
I'd like to think that most would stop themselves from murdering a child because they believed it to be possessed. The people i know who struggle with mental illness would take that as a sign that they need to see their doctor and do something about the medication levels they are on.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)That's really irrelevant. Demons and exorcisms are religious concepts. One can pick them up from being raised in, around, or in a society steeped in religion.
"I'd like to think that most would stop themselves from murdering a child because they believed it to be possessed."
I'd like to think that too. But if we condition people to accept that some things don't need evidence or reason; they can (and indeed, should!) be taken on faith, well...
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)But religion is certainly responsible for the context of the delusions. Your friend's wife isn't seeing demons, after all; she's experiencing hallucinations she identifies as demons. And she identifies them as demons because demons are figures of popular culture.
What we are arguing, however, is that religion encourages religious delusions.
Imagine your friend's wife goes through a pyschotic episode. She complains to a neighbor about "the demons", and, rather than thinking anything is wrong, the neighbor tells her to be careful of those demons, 'cause Satan's out to get all of us. Is that going to help your friend's wife, or make matters worse?
Dorian Gray
(13,493 posts)I just think that there is something disassociative that happens that people use common language to describe.
I do think it could be exacerbated incredibly by a situation in which you describe. Luckily she knew she was seeing something she didn't believe could be real, got help, and has taken proper medication to keep it from happening again.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)will often turn to religious language and concepts to try and understand or explain what is happening to them.
This may happen whether the person was religious before the episode or not, and the religiosity may disappear or go back to a more normal baseline after the episode.
Everyone has heard of demons and exorcisms. Perhaps she learned about it from watching Rosemary's Baby. That's where I learned about it. Does that mean my understanding of it has a religious origin? Was I indoctrinated by a movie?
There is a place for religion in this conversation, I agree. That place is in determining when a rather benign belief and/or practice morphs into something that falls outside the norm and constitutes an illness and a person who is in desperate need of medical attention.
While a large number of people may indicate a belief in demons and possession, how many do you think would agree that this type of "exorcism" is normal or acceptable?
I would say none.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)but you know, of course, that many mainstream religious institutions, for example the RCC, teach that demonic possession is real and that demons can be ritually cast out. Their teachings are not that demons are a metaphor for mental illness. Exorcism is not a psychiatric practice. And the rcc is rather moderate in its exorcism teachings, other mainstream sects are, well, totally fucking daffy on the subject.
struggle4progress
(118,281 posts)to a particular source, if you so wish
I myself have seen no evidence that their ideas can be attributed to the Roman Catholic church or to any other religious group. Since no facts currently in evidence seem to suggest any Roman Catholic influences on Avery or Sanford, an effort to sort out, what Roman Catholics might or might not believe regarding such matters, would not be on point, so I am not inclined to pursue that question here. The religious groups, with which Avery reportedly affiliated, at one time or another, are the Maranatha Brethren Church near Hagerstown MD and the non-denominational Exousia Ministries in Germantown. Avery and Sanford reportedly met at Exousia:
Police: Mother charged in deaths of 2 toddlers thought she was performing exorcism
By Dan Morse and DeNeen L. Brown
Published: January 18
A former family pastor says exorcism was never brought up ... Pastor Dan Thornton of Maranatha Brethren Church says the Harris family moved to Hagerstown with the prospect of a new job ... Members drove them to Sunday Service, doctor's offices, bought them groceries, clothes and even furniture ... Members took the mother to counseling but they don't know for what type of mental health issues, Thornton said ...
Former family pastor says exorcism never brought up
Surae Chinn, WUSA 2:16 p.m. EST January 20, 2014
... Investigators spoke to the pastor of the church Avery attended, Exousia Ministries in Germantown, Jones said. “This is not being ordered, not part of their religion, not what is being preached,” Jones said ...
Tuesday, January 21, 2014
Germantown women accused of killing children in exorcism held without bond
Hearing for Monifa Sanford postponed until Friday
by St. John Barned-Smith
... The pastor of Exousia Ministries told police that the women hadn’t spoken to him about attempting to perform an exorcism. The pair stopped worshipping at the church about two months ago ...
Maryland women accused of killing children were part of ‘Demon Assassin’ exorcism cult
Zakieya Avery and Monifa Sanford were reportedly members of a Germantown-based group called the ‘Demon Assassins.' The women apparently believed they were engaging in spiritual warfare when they stabbed four of Avery’s children—killing the two youngest.
By Carol Kuruvilla / NEW YORK DAILY NEWS
Thursday, January 23, 2014, 5:35 PM
Your claims IMO require actual evidence
trotsky
(49,533 posts)The women, and the police, claim they were performing an exorcism to remove demons from the children.
I have challenged you multiple times to present your evidence that you know the police and/or the women are lying.
You have failed.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)from all of the stories completely.
It is not honest to insist, as you do, that religious beliefs *never* play a role.
But here, let's set the record straight. Perhaps I have misjudged you after all these dozens of threads. Do you believe that the religious beliefs of the women were in some way at least partially responsible for their belief in exorcism as a procedure to remove evil spirits from possessed individuals? Just a yes or no question, that's all.
Of course, if you refuse to answer, I think we'll then know what your answer really is.
rug
(82,333 posts)muriel_volestrangler
(101,311 posts)because in this:
'of course' does not belong. In normal language usage, 'believing in something' and 'thinking that thing exists' do indeed mean the same thing. If you want to make a distinction, you need to be explicit about it.
Dorian Gray
(13,493 posts)into someone's face. (FOOD FIGHT!)
Seriously, though, metaphorically your post is quite apt. Demons..... I don't believe... Then I watch the Exorcist and I'm freaked out for two days.
Brettongarcia
(2,262 posts)Therefore, God is demonic?
nil desperandum
(654 posts)Without religion there is no concept of demons, there is no frame of reference in our experience that defines demons except through religion. Whether or not an individual is religious in this area is meaningless as the concept comes from religious definitions of heaven and hell and who occupies those places.
Believing that a magical man existing in the heavens is watching all you do and directing you to follow his rules or suffer the consequences has proven to be a very bad thing for humanity. Even today with all our science and technology it is religion that can convince someone that shooting a doctor at a pro-choice clinic is a sensible act or that commandeering a plane and using it as a weapon to destroy a building buys you a better afterlife....
Religion is just another yoke used to shackle the herd so those who wish to control the herd can have that power over their herd mates....demons indeed, if there are demons many of them are apparently dressed as holy men and women and use their power every day to commit unspeakable evils on their flock.
Educating the ignorant, and protecting the weak will go a long way toward dissipating the power of religion.
The concept that this is a just a giant accident of chemical combinations run amok is just too difficult for our little brains and self image to handle apparently. In our arrogance to believe in our own self importance we have created God and used that image to conjure up a being so powerful he can create planets, but so lonely he creates us in his image so he can have playthings to watch and torment to determine if those playthings are "good" enough to join him in the cosmos and rule all eternity...really? And that God (whichever flavor one adheres to) tells you that those who believe differently are not worthy, and thus are somehow lesser beings. That is the classic method for justifying or diminishing the deaths of others, after all if they are not worthy their lives are without meaning in the greater scheme of your God....it's the same tactic used over and over since for making the killing of "different" people easier for a society to handle, after all if those business people are godless heathens flying a plane into their buildings and killing them is virtuous, or if those different people worship a strange god invading their country and dragging them out of their homes and holding them prisoner for years is easier to understand....
Demons indeed, we created god and his demons and it appears many of us are only too willing to throw on the demon's clothes and have at it.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)I think the concept of evil would probably exist with or without religion, though it might be spoken of and conceptualized differently.
Religion has clearly caused some harm and been used as the reason to commit some atrocities, but harm and atrocities have occurred outside the scope of religion as well, including in science. The question of whether things would have gone better or been different if there were no religion is not one that can be answered but only speculated on.
Religion has also driven much good and been the inspiration for many things that might not otherwise exist without it. Or would they? Again, the question is not answerable.
You seem to imply that only the weak and ignorant are "vulnerable" to religion. This is obviously not the case, as many very strong and highly intelligent individuals are highly religious. But they may be more vulnerable to possible abuses, and I would argue that shining sunlight on the hucksters and thieves is what we should do.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)You forgot one thing, though: you don't make the rules.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)There is no Aribiter of All Things here, though some think that's their job.
nil desperandum
(654 posts)No worries, religion is an uncomfortable topic for a lot of people. I am okay in understanding that my viewpoint might appear inflammatory and I understand that it might be how I worded my post. The problem I always have with typed words is there is no body language or inflection to indicate that no offense was really meant I was hoping to answer in a manner that was perhaps not passionate but did explain what I think, even if I do not always know why I think that.
I look forward to reading many of these posts and learning a multiple set of opinions.
Thank you again for the welcome!
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)Of course, the irony is that without religion, there would be no atheism either. Then where would all those hungry little demons go for lunch?
rug
(82,333 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)severe hallucinations. I am an atheist. I spoke with god during my delusions, it was great. God told me plenty of crazy shit, luckily I don't believe in god. When I told this god that I must be hallucinating again, he decided he was an Alien. I decided that my delusional crap had to be my mind attacking itself, so I committed myself to a mental hospital. Who know what would have happen to me if I actually did believe in god. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be alive right now.
Why would an atheist visualize god? Because I grew up in a super religious family of highly susceptible individuals with a history of severe debilitating mental illness.
They believe in demons, faith healing, laying on hands and all kinds of craziness. I wish people would stop saying things like demons exist, because they just feed into the illness and validate this nonsense causing these people to seek other methods ( besides psychiatry) to free them from the hell they exist in.
Please stop validating these delusions, I'm asking because I've been harmed and harmed myself over these things. It's like living on a different planet and you'll cling to anything to explain what's going on with you.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)you are becoming delusional. That could be really helpful.
Some atheists develop religious delusions during episodes and don't recognize them as delusional. My take on this is because it offers a possible explanation for what is happening when nothing else seems to make sense.
A good pastor or religious leader will recognize when someone has stepped over the line and help that person get appropriate care, but I agree that there are times when they will not recognize that they are out of their league and try to address the problems using religious tools.
That generally does not go well at all.
I hope that you are doing well and thank you for sharing this.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I just worry about others who aren't lucky enough to recognize the symptoms. I had seen it before in other relatives and I refused to go out like that.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)When everyone else can see it, but you can't.
But we have come so far. I know people who would walk through fire to get their meds these days, and that's a radical change from, say, 30 years ago.
One of this country's biggest shames is the difficulty accessing care by those that suffer. It's hard enough, but making it hard to get help is just salt in the wound.
Glad you are doing well and best wishes for your continued health.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I agree, we need to do more to make help available, and not shame those with mental illness.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)It seems to me that once I explain how I see things, and how it feels to be locked in bizarro world, they get a better understanding of mental illness and are more supportive and helpful. When I lash out, I get nowhere. Better to just explain it to people that haven't been there than to expect them to already know. Hopefully we can improve our delivery system and provide more long term (lifetime) support to those in need, they should never feel alone and start trying to 'fix' themselves, through religion or self medicating, etc. It leads to horrible tragedies.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)to remain in the dark ages in terms of public support is the lack of ribbons and marches and activists and voices, imo.
When someone like yourself is willing to take the risk and put it out there, you provide a powerful voice.
Like most prejudices, it is fed by lack of exposure and ignorance.
I was glad to hear Obama talk about psychiatric services for veterans last night. Perhaps this is the area where we can really kick the door down and begin to educate the general public.
And parity. Parity is critical.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I was glad to see the president bring up that issue along with the permanent war footing issue. The wars are contributing significantly to the amount of people in need of serious help. We better start paying attention right now, we have many veterans now and future vets who will need lifetime assistance in dealing with the horrors of war. Combine that with all of other diagnosed an undiagnosed people living in America, I'm afraid that this is our next epidemic and it's already here killing us one by one. Most of those I know who are struggling are compounding the situation by self medicating with illegal drugs. I avoid illegal drugs like the plague for this very reason, I can't even be around people who are using, it make me so scared I sweat bullets.
This is another area I feel strongly about. Many people with mental illness are dual diagnosed with substance abuse issue along with an underlying psychiatric issue. We need to start treating both problems at once, and start screening substance abuser for mental illness every time and do a thorough job of it.
I think these things lead people to do irrational things like try to perform exorcisms and stuff. They rely on the rest of us to do their reality testing. If we agree that there are demons that can be exorcised, those people will cling to that as a solution because they are not living In reality. We're just feeding into their illness and making it harder for them to accept that what they see is not there. And we can be highly susceptible to suggestion.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)before the flood of veterans.
I think that the ACA and it's parity requirements are going to help, but it's going to take a long time to turn this ship.
Dual diagnosis just compounds the problem all the way around, I agree. And there is so little available to address both issues simultaneously.
I am not really in agreement about religious ideas feeding underlying illnesses. I think someone experiencing psychotic symptoms is going to grab on to anything that might help explain it.
I would bet there is an increase in paranoid delusions that involve drones and government spying due to the prominence of these topics at this time.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I would imagine that if that were my particular problem, fear of spying and drones, I feel proudly validated. Like, 'see I told you so'.
I agree that it's not religion that makes them have a psychotic break, it just doesn't help to have people agreeing with you about demons existing when you actually see demons. At that point in time your mind is so jacked up you'll cling to anything. Any explanation is better than ' I'm seeing/hearing imaginary things'. So telling them, ' yes there are demons, but you're not seeing demons, your mentally ill' isn't going to be effective. Better to just tell them the truth, ' there are no demons, you may be having a psychotic break, let me find you some help' is what I think will work.
But that just how I see it. We should study this more so that can see if there is connection between people not getting help when needed, based on belief systems.
Scientology is terrible with doing this to people, not letting members use medications to control symptoms of depression etc.
I've never heard of any churches in modern times prescribing exorcisms for mental illness, my uncle runs his own baptist church and he would take you to the doctor himself if you were showing any symptoms.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)but in a relatively benign way.
I have always taken the position that it is pointless and can be counter productive to argue with someone's delusions, so I don't think we agree about the effectiveness of telling someone that what they are experiencing just isn't real. I tend to go for the, "I know you believe that, but I don't" approach.
We absolutely agree about scientology. Not only is what they offer a complete scam, it can make people much worse.
I first heard of exorcisms when I saw Rosemary's Baby, and i was raised in the church.
It's not common. The RCC does it, but they have a pretty strict set of guidelines that include a medical (including psychiatric) evaluation to rule out illness.
And there are some extreme sects that do it, but they have had some real tragedies associated with that as they do no screening at all as far as I can tell.
