Religion
Related: About this forumIf peace on earth is our goal, atheism might be the means to that end
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jan/06/peace-on-earth-atheismThe nonreligious are more liberal and more pacifist on most issues relating to violence: torture, the death penalty, corporal punishment, imperialism and more
Adam Lee
theguardian.com, Tuesday 6 January 2015 12.30 GMT
Some things might be incompatible with peace. Photograph: Jayel Aheram / Flickr
The quiet truth behind the inescapable headlines about mans inhumanity to man is that the world is actually becoming a more peaceful place. Deaths from war and conflict have been declining for decades and, if current trends continue, we can make them rarer still.
What mysterious force is sowing peace among humankind? One possible reason is that there are more atheists and nonbelievers than ever before.
In America, millennials are the largest and least religious generation in the countrys history. The trend toward secularization in the US mirrors the movement in Europe and throughout the developed world. And poll after poll have shown that the nonreligious also lean more progressive and more pacifist on a wide variety of issues relating to violence: torture, the death penalty, corporal punishment, military adventurism and more.
A Pew poll from 2009, well before the Senate released its devastating torture report last month, asked whether torturing suspected terrorists could be justified found that the non-religious were most opposed to torture, with a combined 55% saying that it could rarely or never be justified. Gallup has also found that people with no religious preference are less supportive of the death penalty than any group of Christians. The non-religious are also among the most likely to say the invasion of Iraq was a mistake. The religiously unaffiliated are also less likely than Christians to believe that the US is superior to all other countries in the world, a hyper-patriotic attitude thats hardly conducive to careful reflection about the use of American military power.
more at link
edhopper
(33,575 posts)religion does cause a great deal of turmoil. I have no reason to think removing it would remove conflict.
There may be a lot of correlation without causation in these polls.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)The demographics, including political leanings, are interesting.
I think men will find a reason to fight among themselves with or without religion. Religion just provides a cover sometimes.
The recent polls on approval of torture were interesting, but even the numbers within the non-believer category were pretty shocking.
I do find that troubling.
It is similar to death penalty discussions. No matter how much info proves it has no effect on homicide rates, people still want to see people die.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)I had a partner who used to say, "When you seek revenge, dig two graves". This has been a handy reminder for me when I am feeling particularly vengeful.
I heard that plenty of times as we went into the Iraq War from GOP family members. Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, but at least Bush hit someone.
Seriously, they were a Muslim country, so who cares if they were responsible.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)People, even some otherwise very bright and good people, closed their eyes and covered their ears. We had to have revenge and any brown people would do.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Have you?
edhopper
(33,575 posts)"If peace on earth is our goal...", which is what I was responding to.
But yeah, it's a bit of a strawman.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)As is pretty typical for publications. But hey, it matches a worn-out straw man that evil anti-theists think getting rid of religion would solve all our problems so some are going to run with that. Pity, since it detracts from an honest analysis.
TexasProgresive
(12,157 posts)To misquote George Aiken-
If we were to wake up some morning and find that everyone was atheist, we would find some other causes for contention by noon.
The Pew poll is not conclusive of the premise that if more people became atheists then they would be more liberal. Perhaps if more people become liberal there will be more atheist. My guess is that liberals are more prone to reject belief in God. But even among liberals there is a subset of theists.
Here's Mr Aiken's actual words:
If we were to wake up some morning and find that everyone was the same race, creed and color, we would find some other causes for prejudice by noon.
P.S. Thanks for causing be to find the person who said the above. I read it as a child in Reader's Digest and never forgot it.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)That is a much more logical conclusion that the other way around.
There is a very strong set of theists among liberals.
The Pew data on torture was really more about political identification than religious identification, imo. I don't think it convincingly showed that some kinds of believers are more in favor of torture because of their beliefs. Like there is a higher percentage of liberals among atheists, there is a higher percentage of conservatives among fundamentalists.
I think George Aiken's quote says it exactly right.
FBaggins
(26,733 posts)Within our current free society, that may well be true. It certainly isn't universally so.
I prefer John Adam's take that there is "no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion" - or Washington's "While just government protects all in their religious rights, true religion affords to government its surest support"
cbayer
(146,218 posts)from US surveys. It's in a UK paper, so is he also talking about British atheists? I doubt that he has data from, say, China, that would support his assertions.
I agree with you and Adams. It is critical that we carefully guard the 1st amendment and keep our government free of religion.
As to the Washington quote, I don't really get it or see how it supports your position.
FBaggins
(26,733 posts)As I'm sure we agree... "Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed" to secure ththe "unalienable rights" (including life, liberty, and persuit of happiness).
If peace on earth is our goal... then such governments are essential... and "true religion affords to government its surest support"
cbayer
(146,218 posts)FBaggins
(26,733 posts)This isn't a call for my prefered brand of religion. It certainly wasn't for Washington.
True religion is that which inspires us to virtue, wisdom and morality.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)According to whom? Who gets to define those 3 words?
FBaggins
(26,733 posts)... Washington gets to define them - just as he does "true" and "relgion"
I suspect that I agree with him... but you're free to use your own notions.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)though there were 318 at Mount Vernon.
http://www.mountvernon.org/george-washington/slavery/ten-facts-about-washington-slavery/
The ones he owned were freed on his death. (but there is more to that story)
trotsky
(49,533 posts)cbayer
(146,218 posts)It is as if he put quotes around religion, right? Redefining it as something completely different?
mmonk
(52,589 posts)I'm not sure of any claims. Probably because I couldn't tell much difference between Christopher Hitchens and the Bush administration over the Iraq War, an unnecessary one. Also I know what greed can do to a person.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)One can only remark of demographic data and that can never be applied to every person in the set.
mmonk
(52,589 posts)and just reacted. Must be the agnostic part of me and proclamations. 😊
Dawson Leery
(19,348 posts)pinto
(106,886 posts)The Global Peace Index measures peace in 162 countries according to 22 indicators that gauge the absence of violence or the fear of violence. This is the 8th year the index has been produced.
<snip>
Methodology
The Global Peace Index ranks 162 countries covering 99.6% of the worlds population. The Index gauges global peace using three themes: the level of safety and security in society, the extent of domestic or international conflict, and the degree of militarisation. It ranks countries according to 22 indicators of peace. Read the Global Peace Index methodology article for a full list of indicators, scores, weighting and more. More on GPI methodology.
Explore
Explore the Global Peace Index interactive map to see where the countries of the world rank according to their peacefulness. Download the 2014 Global Peace Index Report to read an analysis of the state of peace, as well as the countries most at risk of becoming less peaceful.
http://www.visionofhumanity.org/#/page/our-gpi-findings
cbayer
(146,218 posts)While one can see a possible correlation between religiosity and low peace index, there is also a pretty clear correlation with poverty.
It is difficult to tease those things apart.
pinto
(106,886 posts)Correlations seem pertinent for both.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)is economic status. That is true for countries, regions, states, etc.
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)Member? You member.
locks
(2,012 posts)need to deal with what we believe about "peace" and "repudiation of violence" and did our religion or lack of religion help us form our thinking. "The Buddha was completely uncompromising on the question of violence. When people are violent they are not following the Buddha's teaching." Yet we have many violent Buddhists in the world. Substitute Jesus for the Buddha and you cannot find in the New Testament Jesus ever justifying violence. Buddhists, Christians, atheists, Muslims, Jews profess to be peacemakers while they are committing violence or paying for it and calling it "self-defense", last resort, just war, even naming our guns, bombs and drones "peacemakers" and believing we are doing the right thing.
The Peace Index doesn't help us very much; if a country has had no internal conflict this year but its people are starving and dying from disease is it a peaceful country? If the strongest country in the world has more arms than the rest of the world together for its "security" is it repudiating violence and maintaining the peace?
We may agree that the Civil War was the deadliest conflict in U.S. history, costing 750,000 American lives. But
before the war four million men, women, and children were enslaved, in some states more than half the population were in bondage. Was that a peaceful time?
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
Or so it was allegedly written by unknown persons who said it was something that somebody named Matthew heard that this alleged jesus of nazareth said.