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cbayer

(146,218 posts)
Wed Jan 7, 2015, 06:20 PM Jan 2015

Charlie Hebdo and its biting satire, explained in 9 of its most iconic covers

http://www.vox.com/2015/1/7/7507883/charlie-hebdo-explained-covers

by Amanda Taub on January 7, 2015, 2:00 p.m. ET

Masked gunmen on Wednesday attacked the Paris offices of Charlie Hebdo, a French magazine known for its biting humor — and, more specifically, for a string of satirical cartoons about Islam and the Prophet Muhammed.

Charlie Hebdo, whose name translates roughly to "Charlie Weekly," is a weekly publication that covers French politics through cartoons, satirical articles, and jokes. Although its editor-in-chief Stéphane Charbonnier, who was killed in the attack, has said that he considered the magazine a leftist-pluralist publication, its stance can perhaps better be described as anti-institutional. Its biting satire habitually targeted the government, high-profile politicians, and organized religion. The magazine was founded in 1969, and was resurrected in 1992 following a three-year hiatus.

Those cartoons have provoked a backlash against the magazine in the past, including a firebomb attack on its offices in 2011. But for the editors of the magazine, the offense was the point: the cartoons were directed as much at public sanctimony about Islam and multiculturalism as they were at their nominal subjects. They believed that the short-term decision to avoid offense would damage French secular culture in the longer term.

That debate is not limited to the pages of Charlie Hebdo. The question of whether Islam poses a threat to French culture is a hot-button issue in France, where "laïcité" — secularism — has such importance that it has been described as a "founding myth" of the French republic.

more at link
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Charlie Hebdo and its biting satire, explained in 9 of its most iconic covers (Original Post) cbayer Jan 2015 OP
And some of the more Offensive Homophobic cartoons featured at Gawker, here: NYC_SKP Jan 2015 #1
I don't like the 'toons and I don't often agree with their message, but cbayer Jan 2015 #2
I think it provides great background, yes. NYC_SKP Jan 2015 #3
It's really complicated and perhaps hard to know what is right or wrong here. cbayer Jan 2015 #4
It's "hard to know what is right or wrong here"?? trotsky Jan 2015 #5
I am going to step up and defend cbayer--I don't think anyone is supporting MURDER. MADem Jan 2015 #27
But it's 'expected' and 'should have been anticipated' by the victims, according to some parties AtheistCrusader Jan 2015 #35
You don't understand the culture behind the publication and it's history. AtheistCrusader Jan 2015 #6
Thank you. NYC_SKP Jan 2015 #7
You realize some of them were created in direct response to their offices being firebombed, right? AtheistCrusader Jan 2015 #8
Also, you are making an uninformed snap judgment about a magazine making deadly serious satire about AtheistCrusader Jan 2015 #9
Admittedly, I am. NYC_SKP Jan 2015 #11
Why is it reasonable to expect "that violent reactions might occur"? trotsky Jan 2015 #12
I see the world as a schoolyard, people really behave like children, they are children, in fact. NYC_SKP Jan 2015 #14
Why weren't the death threats considered the initial crime? trotsky Jan 2015 #15
I don't know, they seem like the original crime to me. NYC_SKP Jan 2015 #18
Carelessness? trotsky Jan 2015 #20
I'm going for a walk. NYC_SKP Jan 2015 #23
Great idea. trotsky Jan 2015 #25
It does blame the victim, and it does support 'might makes right'. AtheistCrusader Jan 2015 #22
... NYC_SKP Jan 2015 #24
You've already admitted you are missing cultural and linguistic context for the images/commentary in AtheistCrusader Jan 2015 #26
I think what they've done might well do more harm than good. I'm not the only one who thinks so. NYC_SKP Jan 2015 #49
Marine Le Pen is the leader of the National Front. The one I just mentioned. AtheistCrusader Jan 2015 #57
Yes, by all means this is the fault of the people that drew and published the cartoons. Goblinmonger Jan 2015 #13
Which is not at all what I wrote. How you all go there is beyond me. NYC_SKP Jan 2015 #21
He does that a lot. rug Jan 2015 #28
I genuinely don't understand why you don't understand the connection. AtheistCrusader Jan 2015 #31
I've seen this argument before. AtheistCrusader Jan 2015 #17
Agreed. n/t prayin4rain Jan 2015 #29
"It was careless, at the very least, to carry on in the way they did" - that is classic victim Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 #43
Free speech is great stuff and should never be viewed as in 'is it productive or not'. Rex Jan 2015 #48
As with the "yelling 'Fire' in a theater" admonition... NYC_SKP Jan 2015 #54
"...freedom of expression should be tempered with the risk to innocents." Rex Jan 2015 #58
I appreciate your civility and respect. NYC_SKP Jan 2015 #59
I think over the years I know enough about the regulars here to know Rex Jan 2015 #60
it's not ludicrious, it's simple word substitution AtheistCrusader Jan 2015 #63
We should apply that to our gun laws as well Lordquinton Jan 2015 #64
Indeed. There's plenty of room for improvement there. NYC_SKP Jan 2015 #65
Did people deserve to die because of "hateful cartoons"? trotsky Jan 2015 #10
His stance on this appears eerily similar to the "Did you see how she was dressed? She should've cleanhippie Jan 2015 #16
Yes, it is exactly the same line of thought. trotsky Jan 2015 #19
Funny how in *your brain* it went there. NYC_SKP Jan 2015 #30
Yeah, you keep telling yourself that. cleanhippie Jan 2015 #32
I sleep like a little baby at night. NYC_SKP Jan 2015 #36
I'm sure you do, skp, I'm sure you do. cleanhippie Jan 2015 #37
I love living by the ocean as well. hrmjustin Jan 2015 #38
Hi hrmjustin! NYC_SKP Jan 2015 #40
You are always in my prayers. hrmjustin Jan 2015 #41
"They are giving you a hard time but don't let it get you down." AtheistCrusader Jan 2015 #42
This message was self-deleted by its author cleanhippie Jan 2015 #53
No, you should be. AtheistCrusader Jan 2015 #34
Did you really say Curmudgeoness Jan 2015 #39
"Charbonnier had famously shrugged off threats, saying: 'I'd rather die standing than live kneeling" NYC_SKP Jan 2015 #44
"Give me liberty or give me death." Curmudgeoness Jan 2015 #47
Have you read any quotes from him? cbayer Jan 2015 #46
I have been informed of that quote Curmudgeoness Jan 2015 #52
I agree that he was not looking to die. People in his position are cbayer Jan 2015 #56
The quote is attibuted to Spanish republican icon Dolores Ibarruri, 3 Sept., 1936: NYC_SKP Jan 2015 #61
I did not know that. I thought it was original to him, but I like it either way. cbayer Jan 2015 #62
Thanks for sharing this article Rainforestgoddess Jan 2015 #33
You are welcome. Of all that I read, this gave me the best overview cbayer Jan 2015 #50
It's part of the French tradition of anti-Clericalism too. oneview Jan 2015 #45
That is a good point. It's not the first time and it will likely not be cbayer Jan 2015 #51
Religions, like all other ideas, deserve criticism, satire, and, yes, our fearless disrespect. PassingFair Jan 2015 #55
The claim that pro gay artists were homophobic to defend religions which are homophobic Bluenorthwest Jan 2015 #66
Thank you for this, I do not appreciate them but understand them more. Thanks uppityperson Jan 2015 #67
You are welcome. I found it a good overview on the magazine. cbayer Jan 2015 #68

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
2. I don't like the 'toons and I don't often agree with their message, but
Wed Jan 7, 2015, 06:43 PM
Jan 2015

I think the analysis in this article is very good at explaining where they were coming from.

They meant to be outrageous and I think the editor fully expected to be martyred for his cause.

I'm not sure that these are homophobic though, but I don't really get the point of some of them.

 

NYC_SKP

(68,644 posts)
3. I think it provides great background, yes.
Wed Jan 7, 2015, 06:58 PM
Jan 2015

It might be that I don't understand the culture behind the publication and it's history.

And I can't help but see pain and fear and little else, especially for so many people not directly involved in spreading or committing the hatred.

Of course some folks would say that by simply belonging to a faith one shares responsibility for anything evil done in that faith's behalf.

I see just victims here, no winners.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
4. It's really complicated and perhaps hard to know what is right or wrong here.
Wed Jan 7, 2015, 07:11 PM
Jan 2015

I support their general cause - keeping French government secular. Like many other areas in Europe, there is a growing theocratic force that needs to be countered, whether it is coming from christians or muslims. That appears to have been their goal.

But there is also a growing islamophobia and I think they may have played a role in feeding that. That is where one finds the innocent victims caught in the crossfire, imo.

The position you describe of holding individuals responsible for anything evil done in the name of their religion is a huge problem. It is keeps people from being able to distinguish between ordinary people and extremists. It's a sledge hammer primarily used by those who stand in opposition to the religion without regard to it's good and bad parts.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
5. It's "hard to know what is right or wrong here"??
Wed Jan 7, 2015, 08:07 PM
Jan 2015

Are you kidding me?

It's WRONG to murder, no matter how offensive a fucking cartoon is! What the hell is going on here?

MADem

(135,425 posts)
27. I am going to step up and defend cbayer--I don't think anyone is supporting MURDER.
Thu Jan 8, 2015, 12:10 PM
Jan 2015

The dividing lines are people who mock/insult/deride in graphic fashion, and those who take great offense at these insults.

There are "right" ways, and "wrong" ways to react to offense--mass murder is certainly not a "right" way--no one here at DU thinks that, and it's silly to accuse anyone of thinking that way.

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
35. But it's 'expected' and 'should have been anticipated' by the victims, according to some parties
Thu Jan 8, 2015, 03:15 PM
Jan 2015

in attendance to these threads.

Which is a vile thing to say.

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
6. You don't understand the culture behind the publication and it's history.
Thu Jan 8, 2015, 02:27 AM
Jan 2015

But keep on doubling and tripling down on blaming the victims. So far your self-deletes are staying one step ahead of the jury decisions.

bravo.

 

NYC_SKP

(68,644 posts)
7. Thank you.
Thu Jan 8, 2015, 02:32 AM
Jan 2015

Yeah, I could see all offended people hitting their alert buttons, and a LOT of people sending me jury results.

So, yeah, self delete except for a few that needed to stay because I'm right in calling bullshit.

Hateful cartoons.

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
8. You realize some of them were created in direct response to their offices being firebombed, right?
Thu Jan 8, 2015, 02:34 AM
Jan 2015

They were meant to be offensive, to be sure. I'd use the word 'defiant', where you say 'hateful'.

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
9. Also, you are making an uninformed snap judgment about a magazine making deadly serious satire about
Thu Jan 8, 2015, 02:52 AM
Jan 2015

political issues in a country whose politics you probably don't follow, in a language you probably don't speak, and a culture you probably don't live embedded in.

Some of those cartoons are pretty ugly, because they are lampooning people who are really ugly. Openly racist right-wing orgs, for instance. Some of the references they are making are really obscure. That doesn't make the cartoons hateful, or the people who make them, by extension, bad people in any way.

 

NYC_SKP

(68,644 posts)
11. Admittedly, I am.
Thu Jan 8, 2015, 10:54 AM
Jan 2015

But the vitriolic responses and false claims against and logical fallacies applied in reaction to my replies don't sway me from my position:

It was careless, at the very least, to carry on in the way they did, with decidedly insulting cartoons and knowing full well that violent reactions might occur.

They don't live in a bubble, there are innocent people around them would could, and did, suffer from the blowback.

More generally, meeting hatred with insult rarely produces results.

It's not that their provocative cartoons are not well deserved, my question is how productive can they hope to have ever been?

It's simply not the tool I would use to try to persuade people to think differently; I would have expected more anger and violence and that's what they got.

Thank you for being civil in your reply.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
12. Why is it reasonable to expect "that violent reactions might occur"?
Thu Jan 8, 2015, 11:02 AM
Jan 2015

Since when is violence (in this case, murder) a reasonable reaction to being offended?

It's simply not the tool I would use to try to persuade people to think differently; I would have expected more anger and violence and that's what they got.

That sounds disturbingly similar to "They deserved it." That's not what you're saying, is it?

 

NYC_SKP

(68,644 posts)
14. I see the world as a schoolyard, people really behave like children, they are children, in fact.
Thu Jan 8, 2015, 11:31 AM
Jan 2015

The human species has never fully evolved.
In many instances, adults act more childish than well-reared intelligent middle school students.

Here is my schoolyard analogy:

Johnny T is upset with how the Gordo brothers have been behaving at school, they've done some wrong things and nothing Johnny has does seems to help, telling the teachers and the police, nothing works. The Gordo brothers, just two of the twelve Gordos at school, have even beaten up some of the other kids.

So, Johnny T decides to use his art skills to make insulting graffiti and post it in the bathrooms, the playground, and elsewhere. One of them gets a bloody nose from the older Gordo and responds by doubling his output of insulting graffiti.

Johnny T also announces that he knows they hate it but he doesn't care, his freedom of speech is worth it, yada yada yada.

Even after getting death threats, Johnny T carries on. He's begun selling more graffiti, he doesn't care that his graffiti insults ALL of the Gordo family, even the most peaceful ones.

A week later the Gordo brothers kill Johnny T.

Was this killing deserved? No.

Could it have been forseen? Well, you tell me.

Does the fact that something can be foreseen mean the victim is to be blamed?

I don't know. I just know that sometimes these things end up hurting innocent bystanders.

Now you can go ahead and construct a logical fallacy laden reply telling me what I'm saying is blaming the victim, and then I'll have to ignore you because you're not in this for the discussion, you're in this for something else.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
15. Why weren't the death threats considered the initial crime?
Thu Jan 8, 2015, 11:36 AM
Jan 2015

Why are you more outraged at the person provoking than the person who thinks murder is an acceptable reaction?

 

NYC_SKP

(68,644 posts)
18. I don't know, they seem like the original crime to me.
Thu Jan 8, 2015, 11:41 AM
Jan 2015

The two Gordo brothers were being asshole bullies long before Johnny T turned his pencils against them.

Johnny T had spent time railing against the school administration and some other bullies before the Gordos became a bigger problem.

The death threats were by far the more severe crime.

And I'm not more outraged at the provocative cartoonists, I've only said that I disagree with their conduct and carelessness.

Their only crime is one of negligence and arrogance, neither of which are as severe as death threats and shootings and bombings.

But even that crime of negligence and arrogance has victims, and I'm calling them on it.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
20. Carelessness?
Thu Jan 8, 2015, 11:44 AM
Jan 2015

For living in a free society and expressing ideas?

Quit calling out the victims! They didn't kill themselves or the bystanders. THE MURDERERS DID.

 

NYC_SKP

(68,644 posts)
23. I'm going for a walk.
Thu Jan 8, 2015, 11:51 AM
Jan 2015

It looks like a beautiful day looking out over the ocean. Listening to the surf while I type these replies seems like such a waste of time and daylight.

Wish you were here to discuss while we stroll along the beach so as to have the best of both activities.

Gotta go now.

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
22. It does blame the victim, and it does support 'might makes right'.
Thu Jan 8, 2015, 11:51 AM
Jan 2015

Because the Gordos are violent people (you painted them attacking other people before attacking the artist), Johnny T should be silent.

"I don't know."

You do know. Basically you are advocating here for the Gordos to win. You've already tripped to the underlying mechanism by pointing out Johnny T should be aware that the graffiti is hazardous. You've acknowledged that he should be aware that his art is risky. That apportions at least some of the blame, to Johnny T. You are calling him out as the primary variable. He can make his art and be injured, or, he can be silent. You've put the onus on him, not on the Gordo's, where it belongs.


(I made a modification to your scenario in my mind, that people asked him to put up the graffiti, as some homeowners and businesses sometimes do, in spaces reserved *for* graffiti, because I don't like the introduction of the additional variable of Johnny T being characterized as a criminal, since vandalism is criminal activity itself.)

 

NYC_SKP

(68,644 posts)
24. ...
Thu Jan 8, 2015, 11:57 AM
Jan 2015

Forgot to mention that Johnny's insults were pretty inflammatory, like nudity and just weird stuff that had editorial value and little more.

I'd have preferred that his graffiti be designed to enlighten, inform, challenge in rational way the beliefs behind the Gordo's hatred.

I just happen to think that these kinds of messages might have produced positive results while the insulting messages were not likely to succeed.

I disagree with Johnny's strategy, I support his right to express his ideas but I think they were ill-advised.

Maybe they will have a positive impact over time, I don't know. I just think I would never have tried to solve a problem that way, quite the opposite.

Gotta go walk my little dog now.

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
26. You've already admitted you are missing cultural and linguistic context for the images/commentary in
Thu Jan 8, 2015, 12:06 PM
Jan 2015

the magazine.

"I'd have preferred that his graffiti be designed to enlighten, inform, challenge in rational way the beliefs behind the Gordo's hatred."

I think it does. Holding up a mirror to the French National Front and calling them out as a group of racists, when they pretend to be 'nationalists' is, in fact, enlightening commentary, particularly for the people who might not have tripped to the true nature of the National Front.

NF is a group that is in fact so racist, it is hyper-anti-immigrant in a way that harms incoming Islamic immigrants to France.

If you think Johnny's ideas are 'ill advised', you don't support him, and you don't place the full blame where it belongs; the cretins that would use physical force to silence other people.

 

NYC_SKP

(68,644 posts)
49. I think what they've done might well do more harm than good. I'm not the only one who thinks so.
Thu Jan 8, 2015, 04:30 PM
Jan 2015
France lost five of its most prominent political cartoonists yesterday. For decades, they had mocked the powerful, the sacred, the dictators, and all those who believed themselves above criticism. These cartoonists felt there was no better way to fight fundamentalism than through derision and laughter. The late Charb, Charlie Hebdo's editor-in-chief, was killed, evoking the words of Spanish republican icon Dolores Ibarruri, who was known to boast: "I'd rather die standing than live kneeling."

It is this very impertinence, this freedom to rebel against ideologies, structures and hierarchies through art and literature, that has been targeted. France is known for its triad "liberty, equality, brotherhood" engraved at the helm of every school, on all official buildings. This motto attributed to French theologian and writer Francois Fenelon at the end of the 17th century was popularised during the French Revolution, when popular unrest toppled religious and authoritative powers. This philosophy was central to Charlie Hebdo's editorial line and promoted by Charb, known for his firm leftist stands, and for advocating for more justice and wealth redistribution.

Yet, the likely beneficiaries of this heinous act will be the very opponents of this libertarian and humanist stance. A few hours after the events, extreme right leader Marine Le Pen immediately seized the opportunity to unleash her short-sighted Islamophobic attacks. While spontaneous gatherings and demonstrations took place across the country to show the country's grief and support for the victims, Le Pen dissuaded her supporters from participating. She later set conditions for taking part in the Republican march organised for next Sunday.
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2015/01/defining-moment-french-right-20151812591698588.html


"Yet, the likely beneficiaries of this heinous act will be the very opponents of this libertarian and humanist stance. "

I'm not alone in questioning the efficacy of this approach to fighting fundamentalism...

~~~

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
57. Marine Le Pen is the leader of the National Front. The one I just mentioned.
Thu Jan 8, 2015, 04:58 PM
Jan 2015

The one Charline Hebdo took to task in one of your so called 'Offensive' cartoons.

http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--2Ea5CAgX--/c_fit,fl_progressive,q_80,w_320/q2ydp3x50xtcektdwz2n.jpg

'An Assembly of Racists'.

That's the NF logo, lower left.

 

Goblinmonger

(22,340 posts)
13. Yes, by all means this is the fault of the people that drew and published the cartoons.
Thu Jan 8, 2015, 11:11 AM
Jan 2015

How dare they try to make a point about something being bad. They should have known that people were going to kill people over this. That was a reasonable expectation. How could they possibly have tried to make a point realizing that innocent people would get killed? They should never have done it. All the blame lies with them.

for fuck's sake.

 

NYC_SKP

(68,644 posts)
21. Which is not at all what I wrote. How you all go there is beyond me.
Thu Jan 8, 2015, 11:45 AM
Jan 2015

How hard can it be to see that I'm calling them on their carelessness and arrogance, I'm not saying they deserved it and I think you know that.

You're right about this:

They should have known that people were going to kill people over this. That was a reasonable expectation.


This part I have never said, YOU said it:

How dare they try to make a point about something being bad. They should never have done it. All the blame lies with them.


Sarcasm or not, when engaged in a battle bullets don't know which side is righteous.

Peace.



 

rug

(82,333 posts)
28. He does that a lot.
Thu Jan 8, 2015, 12:29 PM
Jan 2015

When you state differently what someone said, it's much easier to answer.

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
17. I've seen this argument before.
Thu Jan 8, 2015, 11:40 AM
Jan 2015

You call them logical fallacies and false claims, I call it 'taking your argument to its logical conclusion'.

"It was careless, at the very least, to carry on in the way they did, with decidedly insulting cartoons and knowing full well that violent reactions might occur."


One could apply simple word substitution and make this victim blaming about a rape, wherein someone was 'wearing too short of a skirt' in a 'bad neighborhood' and 'rape might occur'.

I approach things, and evaluate them from principle. An argument you can make for this issue, can be applied to any other issue, wherein some party might perceive a provocation, however reasonable or unreasonable. Anything you might say about this victim, the mechanism must be applicable to other victims in other situations, OR, you're engaged in special pleading, which is by itself, offensive.

I'm not trying to berate you at the moment, trying to help you see what you appear to be missing here.


"They don't live in a bubble, there are innocent people around them would could, and did, suffer from the blowback."

This is the cost of living in a civilized society, where people are free to speak their mind. The fault and the blame lies with those who would escalate words or images, to physical violence. This is not a matter of incitement. Charlie Hedbo didn't scream 'fire' in a crowded theater. It spoke when those that have no right to do so, told them to 'be silent or else'.

“Stand before the people you fear and speak your mind -- even if your voice shakes.”
― Maggie Kuhn
 

Warren Stupidity

(48,181 posts)
43. "It was careless, at the very least, to carry on in the way they did" - that is classic victim
Thu Jan 8, 2015, 04:08 PM
Jan 2015

blaming. You must be so proud.

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
48. Free speech is great stuff and should never be viewed as in 'is it productive or not'.
Thu Jan 8, 2015, 04:30 PM
Jan 2015

If that is the case, we might as well do away with poetry.

It all boils down (IMO) to you have every right to be outraged at me for what I do (and you can publicly rake me over the coals), but you have no right to murder me in cold blood. There is no equivalency between a drawing and murder. A and B never cross each other. Ever.

Okay, so we don't print pictures of Mohammad. What do we do when the NEXT cult demands something from us - we cannot print pictures of cats, for example. How far do we go to feel 'safe'?

 

NYC_SKP

(68,644 posts)
54. As with the "yelling 'Fire' in a theater" admonition...
Thu Jan 8, 2015, 04:42 PM
Jan 2015

...one can reasonably opine that responsible use of the freedom of expression should be tempered with the risk to innocents.

I'm not so concerned about the offense that some might take, but I am about the risk of physical harm.

"Collateral damage":

Frederic Boisseau, caretaker

The 42-year-old was in the reception area when the gunmen entered the building, Le Monde writes.

Married, he was the father of two children.


Ahmed Merabet, policeman

Arriving at the scene of the attack, the 42-year-old opened fire on the gunmen but was injured in the exchange, Le Figaro writes.

Then, as he lay on the ground, a gunman shot him in the head from close range, in an act captured on amateur video.


Brigadier Franck Brinsolaro, police bodyguard

The 49-year-old was assigned to protect Charb after he received death threats. He was married, with two children.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30724678


 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
58. "...freedom of expression should be tempered with the risk to innocents."
Thu Jan 8, 2015, 04:58 PM
Jan 2015

That is something I would expect to read from the PM of China or some other dictatorship that fears freedom of expression. From cults way too insecure in their own belief system, for it to stand up to criticism and ridicule.

Nobody deserves to die, just because they decided to mock another culture or group. Only insane people believe that. If you want people to fear reprisal for daring to ridicule others, than you are really not that concerned with freedom of speech or expression and basically saying the 'terrorists won.'

IMO.


EDIT - however I do not believe you are victim blaming and are sincerely trying to prove a point to people. I see it, I do. I just disagree with you.

 

NYC_SKP

(68,644 posts)
59. I appreciate your civility and respect.
Thu Jan 8, 2015, 05:48 PM
Jan 2015

I do.

Some seem to think I'm blaming the victims here, going so far as to say that it reminds them of blaming rape victims for dressing a certain way.

I don't respond, that's ludicrous.

The publishers and cartoonists and editors in this case were trying, at least, to do a public service in challenging fundamentalism and bigotry with sharp satire.

They chose to do it in ways I would not have, in ways I think might have done more harm than good.

They clearly understood the risks, and apparently accepted them and that's their choice.

I disagree with that choice largely because of the risk to others, but also because I don't think it's an effective strategy and could create more enemies.

Again, thank you for the added note.

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
60. I think over the years I know enough about the regulars here to know
Thu Jan 8, 2015, 06:02 PM
Jan 2015

that despite our differences and times yes we do fight like cats and dogs - nobody wants to see innocent people die. That's just ridiculous and I won't believe it for a second.

We have different opinions on this tragic event, but for some to pretend it means you are cheering on the death of some writers in France is beyond disingenuous and moronic.


AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
63. it's not ludicrious, it's simple word substitution
Thu Jan 8, 2015, 06:39 PM
Jan 2015

If your argument works for one subject but not the other, it's worthless special pleading.

Lordquinton

(7,886 posts)
64. We should apply that to our gun laws as well
Thu Jan 8, 2015, 09:43 PM
Jan 2015

We have zero accountability when it comes to firearms, so something should be done "about the risk of physical harm."

 

NYC_SKP

(68,644 posts)
65. Indeed. There's plenty of room for improvement there.
Thu Jan 8, 2015, 09:52 PM
Jan 2015

For example, stop using the term "accident" to describe the criminal negligence that leads to a child finding a gun and ammo and shooting someone or themselves.

I'm with you on that, Lordquinton!

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
10. Did people deserve to die because of "hateful cartoons"?
Thu Jan 8, 2015, 10:41 AM
Jan 2015

Is murder an acceptable response to being offended?

cleanhippie

(19,705 posts)
16. His stance on this appears eerily similar to the "Did you see how she was dressed? She should've
Thu Jan 8, 2015, 11:37 AM
Jan 2015

expected it" drivel.



trotsky

(49,533 posts)
19. Yes, it is exactly the same line of thought.
Thu Jan 8, 2015, 11:42 AM
Jan 2015

One should reasonably expect to be raped if one dresses provocatively. You can't blame the rapist for being taunted and baited. You should have foreseen the possibility of being raped. And on and on.

It's a disgusting attitude, basically just writing off the responsibility of the people COMMITTING THE REAL CRIME. They couldn't help themselves. They warned you. You knew. Ugh.

 

NYC_SKP

(68,644 posts)
30. Funny how in *your brain* it went there.
Thu Jan 8, 2015, 01:36 PM
Jan 2015

It says more about you than about me.

It's an insult to women and to victims of rape to compare the two, you should be ashamed.

 

NYC_SKP

(68,644 posts)
36. I sleep like a little baby at night.
Thu Jan 8, 2015, 03:28 PM
Jan 2015

Especially here at the ocean, even with the windows closed you hear the ocean.

It's almost too loud when the windows are open!

Today I'm working on my laptop but glancing out frequently because whales have been sighted in recent days.

I saw some sea otters a bit ago, an indication of some food. The whales are often not far behind.

Bodies of water keep me at peace, that's why I don't get upset the way others do when their foistings are rejected.

 

hrmjustin

(71,265 posts)
38. I love living by the ocean as well.
Thu Jan 8, 2015, 03:46 PM
Jan 2015

I love the fog horns on the bay.

They are giving you a hard time but don't let it get you down.

 

NYC_SKP

(68,644 posts)
40. Hi hrmjustin!
Thu Jan 8, 2015, 03:57 PM
Jan 2015

I'm a Pisces, I think it's in my blood.
And, they say that our bodies have roughly the same salinity and many of the same minerals as the ocean.

It's hard to get me down after surviving three head surgeries last year.
And that last one in November, when they removed the infected chunk of skull, brought me to an almost unnatural state of joy and gratitude.

Take care, my friend. I wish we weren't at opposite oceans!

Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #42)

Curmudgeoness

(18,219 posts)
39. Did you really say
Thu Jan 8, 2015, 03:50 PM
Jan 2015

that the editor fully expected to be murdered over these cartoons? I hardly think that is the case. It isn't about becoming a martyr.....that is for the religious crowd. It comes down to standing up to the bully and not allowing one view to silence you.

 

NYC_SKP

(68,644 posts)
44. "Charbonnier had famously shrugged off threats, saying: 'I'd rather die standing than live kneeling"
Thu Jan 8, 2015, 04:13 PM
Jan 2015

It's sort of a battle cry among martyrs.

Editor Stephane Charbonnier had famously shrugged off threats, saying: 'I'd rather die standing than live kneeling'

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2900259/Gunmen-kill-11-Charlie-Hebdo-attack.html#ixzz3OGKwIn2D
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook


France lost five of its most prominent political cartoonists yesterday. For decades, they had mocked the powerful, the sacred, the dictators, and all those who believed themselves above criticism. These cartoonists felt there was no better way to fight fundamentalism than through derision and laughter. The late Charb, Charlie Hebdo's editor-in-chief, was killed, evoking the words of Spanish republican icon Dolores Ibarruri, who was known to boast: "I'd rather die standing than live kneeling."

It is this very impertinence, this freedom to rebel against ideologies, structures and hierarchies through art and literature, that has been targeted. France is known for its triad "liberty, equality, brotherhood" engraved at the helm of every school, on all official buildings. This motto attributed to French theologian and writer Francois Fenelon at the end of the 17th century was popularised during the French Revolution, when popular unrest toppled religious and authoritative powers. This philosophy was central to Charlie Hebdo's editorial line and promoted by Charb, known for his firm leftist stands, and for advocating for more justice and wealth redistribution.

Yet, the likely beneficiaries of this heinous act will be the very opponents of this libertarian and humanist stance. A few hours after the events, extreme right leader Marine Le Pen immediately seized the opportunity to unleash her short-sighted Islamophobic attacks. While spontaneous gatherings and demonstrations took place across the country to show the country's grief and support for the victims, Le Pen dissuaded her supporters from participating. She later set conditions for taking part in the Republican march organised for next Sunday.
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2015/01/defining-moment-french-right-20151812591698588.html


"Yet, the likely beneficiaries of this heinous act will be the very opponents of this libertarian and humanist stance. "

I'm not alone in questioning the efficacy of this approach to fighting fundamentalism...

~~~

Curmudgeoness

(18,219 posts)
47. "Give me liberty or give me death."
Thu Jan 8, 2015, 04:25 PM
Jan 2015

"I'd rather die standing than live kneeling."

These statements do not mean that the speaker is looking to die, or expects to become a martyr. It may say that they are not afraid of death, but I do not believe that they were looking for it.

You keep saying that satire and cartoons are not the way to deal with the fundamentalist (or any bullies, I suppose). So how should these people be dealt with? What are the answers? What strategy will make an iota of difference to them, because I don't see them ever sitting around the campfire. The amount of rage in them, fueled by religion, will not disappear until they die. I believe that they will continue hating no matter what we do. So what is the solution?

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
46. Have you read any quotes from him?
Thu Jan 8, 2015, 04:21 PM
Jan 2015

This one in particular:

'I'd rather die standing than live on my knees'

I don't know about you, but I read that as his knowing that he might come to a violent end.

Did you know that the offices had been previously firebombed?

There are all kinds of martyrs and they aren't all religious. When you stand up to bullies and not allow them to silence you, they often turn up the heat.

Sometimes events like this result in blowing the cover off things and leading to some positive change. It's the best we could hope for as a result of this heinous crime.

I do not think it was his wish to die in this way, but he took a stand that he knew came with some risk.

Are you trying to find some way to twist this so that I am the bad guy here?




Curmudgeoness

(18,219 posts)
52. I have been informed of that quote
Thu Jan 8, 2015, 04:36 PM
Jan 2015

(above), and I am aware of the firebombing as well as the constant death threats. But I still do not think that he was looking to die. To not fear death is not the same as wanting to die, and people who want to be martyrs are hoping to die. I am sure this was not the case here. Even I have said that I would rather be dead than to live (fill in the blank). That doesn't mean that I want to die....totally different.

I am not twisting anything. Those were your words. I am just shocked at how many people are casting blame on the cartoonists for drawing cartoons. I expected more outrage over the terrorists who murdered them or the religion that encourages and condones it....and I see so much "they should have known better". :shakes head:

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
56. I agree that he was not looking to die. People in his position are
Thu Jan 8, 2015, 04:56 PM
Jan 2015

generally not looking to die, but they know that they may. He is much like the kansas city doctor who was providing abortion services. He believed in what he was doing and knew what the risks were. Neither wanted to be martyrs, they just realized that they might be.

There is plenty of outrage about the terrorists who committed these murders. There is also analysis of how and why it happened. Discussing that is not casting blame on the cartoonists, it's just assessing the situation.

If you aren't seeing the outrage and seeing a lot of "they should have known better", it might be because you are reading inside a cocoon where people are demonized for, well, just about anything. This might just be a bandwagon and not a reflection of what is really going on here.

And it's certainly not a reflection of my position, no matter what might be said.

 

NYC_SKP

(68,644 posts)
61. The quote is attibuted to Spanish republican icon Dolores Ibarruri, 3 Sept., 1936:
Thu Jan 8, 2015, 06:13 PM
Jan 2015

You probably knew this but others might not.

HER SPEECH

Words cannot express the profound impression caused by the stirring speech of our magnificent Pasionaria. It was the voice of the fighters of Irun, Oviedo and Malaga that came from her lips; it was they who were appealing for help to the Spanish people, to the champions of the Great Revolution. It was the fighters of Badajoz and other battlefields who were calling to the French people not to allow their sister country to perish in an unequal struggle.

Tears streamed from the eyes of men and women as they listened to Pasionaria, and all hearts contracted with a spasm of pain and rage.

"People of democratic Spain, people who are fighting for the liberty and rights of man!"—thundered the voice of Pasionaria, "the whole Spanish people—socialists, communists and anarchists alike— have taken up arms against the fascist revolt. Fascism shall not pass! "Better die standing, than live kneeling!"

http://www.marxists.org/archive/ibarruri/1936/09/03.htm




cbayer

(146,218 posts)
62. I did not know that. I thought it was original to him, but I like it either way.
Thu Jan 8, 2015, 06:35 PM
Jan 2015

I often have a great deal of respect for people that are willing to put their lives on the line for their cause, as long as I am aligned with that cause. Even if I am not fully aligned with the methods, I do think fighting against theocracy and religious extremism is a good cause.

Rainforestgoddess

(436 posts)
33. Thanks for sharing this article
Thu Jan 8, 2015, 02:34 PM
Jan 2015

I think it's important that everyone see the images.

The farther they are spread, the more we beat the religious extremists who want to curtail our ability to see them.

My Facebook avatar is now a cartoon of a single pencil (yesterday) a broken pencil (today) and the broken pencil sharpened on both sides (tomorrow)

That's how we must respond. Flood the world with more critical analysis of *everything *. Whether it's stupid, offensive or insightful.

So again, thank you for sharing.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
50. You are welcome. Of all that I read, this gave me the best overview
Thu Jan 8, 2015, 04:31 PM
Jan 2015

of what this was about with the least bias.

Above there is some talk about martyrdom and the possible silver lining to events like this. If it makes people more aware of the extremism and more people gather to stand against it, that has to be a good thing.

Your avatar sounds wonderful. You might also really like this article from yesterday's LA Times.

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/opinion-la/la-ol-cartoonists-respond-to-charlie-hebdo-attack-20150107-htmlstory.html

 

oneview

(47 posts)
45. It's part of the French tradition of anti-Clericalism too.
Thu Jan 8, 2015, 04:14 PM
Jan 2015

A long and at times quite honorable tradition from the original French Revolution onward.

PassingFair

(22,434 posts)
55. Religions, like all other ideas, deserve criticism, satire, and, yes, our fearless disrespect.
Thu Jan 8, 2015, 04:47 PM
Jan 2015

Religion, a mediaeval form of unreason, when combined with modern weaponry becomes a real threat to our freedoms. This religious totalitarianism has caused a deadly mutation in the heart of Islam and we see the tragic consequences in Paris today. I stand with Charlie Hebdo, as we all must, to defend the art of satire, which has always been a force for liberty and against tyranny, dishonesty and stupidity. ‘Respect for religion’ has become a code phrase meaning ‘fear of religion.’ Religions, like all other ideas, deserve criticism, satire, and, yes, our fearless disrespect.” –Salman Rushdie

 

Bluenorthwest

(45,319 posts)
66. The claim that pro gay artists were homophobic to defend religions which are homophobic
Fri Jan 16, 2015, 08:19 PM
Jan 2015

is abusive, insulting, exploitative and wrong. It seems some have no empathy for LGBT people who suffer denigrating language from religious quarters, but instant rivers of empathy for stone cold murderers who felt insulted. So they want to use LGBT issues to promote religions which are anti gay by claiming that pro equality artists were the actual bigots.

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