Religion
Related: About this forumCharlie Hebdo and its biting satire, explained in 9 of its most iconic covers
http://www.vox.com/2015/1/7/7507883/charlie-hebdo-explained-coversby Amanda Taub on January 7, 2015, 2:00 p.m. ET
Masked gunmen on Wednesday attacked the Paris offices of Charlie Hebdo, a French magazine known for its biting humor and, more specifically, for a string of satirical cartoons about Islam and the Prophet Muhammed.
Charlie Hebdo, whose name translates roughly to "Charlie Weekly," is a weekly publication that covers French politics through cartoons, satirical articles, and jokes. Although its editor-in-chief Stéphane Charbonnier, who was killed in the attack, has said that he considered the magazine a leftist-pluralist publication, its stance can perhaps better be described as anti-institutional. Its biting satire habitually targeted the government, high-profile politicians, and organized religion. The magazine was founded in 1969, and was resurrected in 1992 following a three-year hiatus.
Those cartoons have provoked a backlash against the magazine in the past, including a firebomb attack on its offices in 2011. But for the editors of the magazine, the offense was the point: the cartoons were directed as much at public sanctimony about Islam and multiculturalism as they were at their nominal subjects. They believed that the short-term decision to avoid offense would damage French secular culture in the longer term.
That debate is not limited to the pages of Charlie Hebdo. The question of whether Islam poses a threat to French culture is a hot-button issue in France, where "laïcité" secularism has such importance that it has been described as a "founding myth" of the French republic.
more at link
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)...
Trigger warning.
http://gawker.com/what-is-charlie-hebdo-and-why-a-mostly-complete-histo-1677959168
...
cbayer
(146,218 posts)I think the analysis in this article is very good at explaining where they were coming from.
They meant to be outrageous and I think the editor fully expected to be martyred for his cause.
I'm not sure that these are homophobic though, but I don't really get the point of some of them.
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)It might be that I don't understand the culture behind the publication and it's history.
And I can't help but see pain and fear and little else, especially for so many people not directly involved in spreading or committing the hatred.
Of course some folks would say that by simply belonging to a faith one shares responsibility for anything evil done in that faith's behalf.
I see just victims here, no winners.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)I support their general cause - keeping French government secular. Like many other areas in Europe, there is a growing theocratic force that needs to be countered, whether it is coming from christians or muslims. That appears to have been their goal.
But there is also a growing islamophobia and I think they may have played a role in feeding that. That is where one finds the innocent victims caught in the crossfire, imo.
The position you describe of holding individuals responsible for anything evil done in the name of their religion is a huge problem. It is keeps people from being able to distinguish between ordinary people and extremists. It's a sledge hammer primarily used by those who stand in opposition to the religion without regard to it's good and bad parts.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Are you kidding me?
It's WRONG to murder, no matter how offensive a fucking cartoon is! What the hell is going on here?
MADem
(135,425 posts)The dividing lines are people who mock/insult/deride in graphic fashion, and those who take great offense at these insults.
There are "right" ways, and "wrong" ways to react to offense--mass murder is certainly not a "right" way--no one here at DU thinks that, and it's silly to accuse anyone of thinking that way.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)in attendance to these threads.
Which is a vile thing to say.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)But keep on doubling and tripling down on blaming the victims. So far your self-deletes are staying one step ahead of the jury decisions.
bravo.
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)Yeah, I could see all offended people hitting their alert buttons, and a LOT of people sending me jury results.
So, yeah, self delete except for a few that needed to stay because I'm right in calling bullshit.
Hateful cartoons.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)They were meant to be offensive, to be sure. I'd use the word 'defiant', where you say 'hateful'.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)political issues in a country whose politics you probably don't follow, in a language you probably don't speak, and a culture you probably don't live embedded in.
Some of those cartoons are pretty ugly, because they are lampooning people who are really ugly. Openly racist right-wing orgs, for instance. Some of the references they are making are really obscure. That doesn't make the cartoons hateful, or the people who make them, by extension, bad people in any way.
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)But the vitriolic responses and false claims against and logical fallacies applied in reaction to my replies don't sway me from my position:
It was careless, at the very least, to carry on in the way they did, with decidedly insulting cartoons and knowing full well that violent reactions might occur.
They don't live in a bubble, there are innocent people around them would could, and did, suffer from the blowback.
More generally, meeting hatred with insult rarely produces results.
It's not that their provocative cartoons are not well deserved, my question is how productive can they hope to have ever been?
It's simply not the tool I would use to try to persuade people to think differently; I would have expected more anger and violence and that's what they got.
Thank you for being civil in your reply.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Since when is violence (in this case, murder) a reasonable reaction to being offended?
It's simply not the tool I would use to try to persuade people to think differently; I would have expected more anger and violence and that's what they got.
That sounds disturbingly similar to "They deserved it." That's not what you're saying, is it?
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)The human species has never fully evolved.
In many instances, adults act more childish than well-reared intelligent middle school students.
Here is my schoolyard analogy:
Johnny T is upset with how the Gordo brothers have been behaving at school, they've done some wrong things and nothing Johnny has does seems to help, telling the teachers and the police, nothing works. The Gordo brothers, just two of the twelve Gordos at school, have even beaten up some of the other kids.
So, Johnny T decides to use his art skills to make insulting graffiti and post it in the bathrooms, the playground, and elsewhere. One of them gets a bloody nose from the older Gordo and responds by doubling his output of insulting graffiti.
Johnny T also announces that he knows they hate it but he doesn't care, his freedom of speech is worth it, yada yada yada.
Even after getting death threats, Johnny T carries on. He's begun selling more graffiti, he doesn't care that his graffiti insults ALL of the Gordo family, even the most peaceful ones.
A week later the Gordo brothers kill Johnny T.
Was this killing deserved? No.
Could it have been forseen? Well, you tell me.
Does the fact that something can be foreseen mean the victim is to be blamed?
I don't know. I just know that sometimes these things end up hurting innocent bystanders.
Now you can go ahead and construct a logical fallacy laden reply telling me what I'm saying is blaming the victim, and then I'll have to ignore you because you're not in this for the discussion, you're in this for something else.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Why are you more outraged at the person provoking than the person who thinks murder is an acceptable reaction?
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)The two Gordo brothers were being asshole bullies long before Johnny T turned his pencils against them.
Johnny T had spent time railing against the school administration and some other bullies before the Gordos became a bigger problem.
The death threats were by far the more severe crime.
And I'm not more outraged at the provocative cartoonists, I've only said that I disagree with their conduct and carelessness.
Their only crime is one of negligence and arrogance, neither of which are as severe as death threats and shootings and bombings.
But even that crime of negligence and arrogance has victims, and I'm calling them on it.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)For living in a free society and expressing ideas?
Quit calling out the victims! They didn't kill themselves or the bystanders. THE MURDERERS DID.
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)It looks like a beautiful day looking out over the ocean. Listening to the surf while I type these replies seems like such a waste of time and daylight.
Wish you were here to discuss while we stroll along the beach so as to have the best of both activities.
Gotta go now.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)I hope you have plenty of time to think.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Because the Gordos are violent people (you painted them attacking other people before attacking the artist), Johnny T should be silent.
"I don't know."
You do know. Basically you are advocating here for the Gordos to win. You've already tripped to the underlying mechanism by pointing out Johnny T should be aware that the graffiti is hazardous. You've acknowledged that he should be aware that his art is risky. That apportions at least some of the blame, to Johnny T. You are calling him out as the primary variable. He can make his art and be injured, or, he can be silent. You've put the onus on him, not on the Gordo's, where it belongs.
(I made a modification to your scenario in my mind, that people asked him to put up the graffiti, as some homeowners and businesses sometimes do, in spaces reserved *for* graffiti, because I don't like the introduction of the additional variable of Johnny T being characterized as a criminal, since vandalism is criminal activity itself.)
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)Forgot to mention that Johnny's insults were pretty inflammatory, like nudity and just weird stuff that had editorial value and little more.
I'd have preferred that his graffiti be designed to enlighten, inform, challenge in rational way the beliefs behind the Gordo's hatred.
I just happen to think that these kinds of messages might have produced positive results while the insulting messages were not likely to succeed.
I disagree with Johnny's strategy, I support his right to express his ideas but I think they were ill-advised.
Maybe they will have a positive impact over time, I don't know. I just think I would never have tried to solve a problem that way, quite the opposite.
Gotta go walk my little dog now.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)the magazine.
"I'd have preferred that his graffiti be designed to enlighten, inform, challenge in rational way the beliefs behind the Gordo's hatred."
I think it does. Holding up a mirror to the French National Front and calling them out as a group of racists, when they pretend to be 'nationalists' is, in fact, enlightening commentary, particularly for the people who might not have tripped to the true nature of the National Front.
NF is a group that is in fact so racist, it is hyper-anti-immigrant in a way that harms incoming Islamic immigrants to France.
If you think Johnny's ideas are 'ill advised', you don't support him, and you don't place the full blame where it belongs; the cretins that would use physical force to silence other people.
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)It is this very impertinence, this freedom to rebel against ideologies, structures and hierarchies through art and literature, that has been targeted. France is known for its triad "liberty, equality, brotherhood" engraved at the helm of every school, on all official buildings. This motto attributed to French theologian and writer Francois Fenelon at the end of the 17th century was popularised during the French Revolution, when popular unrest toppled religious and authoritative powers. This philosophy was central to Charlie Hebdo's editorial line and promoted by Charb, known for his firm leftist stands, and for advocating for more justice and wealth redistribution.
Yet, the likely beneficiaries of this heinous act will be the very opponents of this libertarian and humanist stance. A few hours after the events, extreme right leader Marine Le Pen immediately seized the opportunity to unleash her short-sighted Islamophobic attacks. While spontaneous gatherings and demonstrations took place across the country to show the country's grief and support for the victims, Le Pen dissuaded her supporters from participating. She later set conditions for taking part in the Republican march organised for next Sunday.
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2015/01/defining-moment-french-right-20151812591698588.html
"Yet, the likely beneficiaries of this heinous act will be the very opponents of this libertarian and humanist stance. "
I'm not alone in questioning the efficacy of this approach to fighting fundamentalism...
~~~
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)The one Charline Hebdo took to task in one of your so called 'Offensive' cartoons.
http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--2Ea5CAgX--/c_fit,fl_progressive,q_80,w_320/q2ydp3x50xtcektdwz2n.jpg
'An Assembly of Racists'.
That's the NF logo, lower left.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)How dare they try to make a point about something being bad. They should have known that people were going to kill people over this. That was a reasonable expectation. How could they possibly have tried to make a point realizing that innocent people would get killed? They should never have done it. All the blame lies with them.
for fuck's sake.
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)How hard can it be to see that I'm calling them on their carelessness and arrogance, I'm not saying they deserved it and I think you know that.
You're right about this:
This part I have never said, YOU said it:
Sarcasm or not, when engaged in a battle bullets don't know which side is righteous.
Peace.
rug
(82,333 posts)When you state differently what someone said, it's much easier to answer.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)You call them logical fallacies and false claims, I call it 'taking your argument to its logical conclusion'.
One could apply simple word substitution and make this victim blaming about a rape, wherein someone was 'wearing too short of a skirt' in a 'bad neighborhood' and 'rape might occur'.
I approach things, and evaluate them from principle. An argument you can make for this issue, can be applied to any other issue, wherein some party might perceive a provocation, however reasonable or unreasonable. Anything you might say about this victim, the mechanism must be applicable to other victims in other situations, OR, you're engaged in special pleading, which is by itself, offensive.
I'm not trying to berate you at the moment, trying to help you see what you appear to be missing here.
"They don't live in a bubble, there are innocent people around them would could, and did, suffer from the blowback."
This is the cost of living in a civilized society, where people are free to speak their mind. The fault and the blame lies with those who would escalate words or images, to physical violence. This is not a matter of incitement. Charlie Hedbo didn't scream 'fire' in a crowded theater. It spoke when those that have no right to do so, told them to 'be silent or else'.
Stand before the people you fear and speak your mind -- even if your voice shakes.
― Maggie Kuhn
prayin4rain
(2,065 posts)Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)blaming. You must be so proud.
Rex
(65,616 posts)If that is the case, we might as well do away with poetry.
It all boils down (IMO) to you have every right to be outraged at me for what I do (and you can publicly rake me over the coals), but you have no right to murder me in cold blood. There is no equivalency between a drawing and murder. A and B never cross each other. Ever.
Okay, so we don't print pictures of Mohammad. What do we do when the NEXT cult demands something from us - we cannot print pictures of cats, for example. How far do we go to feel 'safe'?
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)...one can reasonably opine that responsible use of the freedom of expression should be tempered with the risk to innocents.
I'm not so concerned about the offense that some might take, but I am about the risk of physical harm.
"Collateral damage":
The 42-year-old was in the reception area when the gunmen entered the building, Le Monde writes.
Married, he was the father of two children.
Ahmed Merabet, policeman
Arriving at the scene of the attack, the 42-year-old opened fire on the gunmen but was injured in the exchange, Le Figaro writes.
Then, as he lay on the ground, a gunman shot him in the head from close range, in an act captured on amateur video.
Brigadier Franck Brinsolaro, police bodyguard
The 49-year-old was assigned to protect Charb after he received death threats. He was married, with two children.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30724678
Rex
(65,616 posts)That is something I would expect to read from the PM of China or some other dictatorship that fears freedom of expression. From cults way too insecure in their own belief system, for it to stand up to criticism and ridicule.
Nobody deserves to die, just because they decided to mock another culture or group. Only insane people believe that. If you want people to fear reprisal for daring to ridicule others, than you are really not that concerned with freedom of speech or expression and basically saying the 'terrorists won.'
IMO.
EDIT - however I do not believe you are victim blaming and are sincerely trying to prove a point to people. I see it, I do. I just disagree with you.
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)I do.
Some seem to think I'm blaming the victims here, going so far as to say that it reminds them of blaming rape victims for dressing a certain way.
I don't respond, that's ludicrous.
The publishers and cartoonists and editors in this case were trying, at least, to do a public service in challenging fundamentalism and bigotry with sharp satire.
They chose to do it in ways I would not have, in ways I think might have done more harm than good.
They clearly understood the risks, and apparently accepted them and that's their choice.
I disagree with that choice largely because of the risk to others, but also because I don't think it's an effective strategy and could create more enemies.
Again, thank you for the added note.
Rex
(65,616 posts)that despite our differences and times yes we do fight like cats and dogs - nobody wants to see innocent people die. That's just ridiculous and I won't believe it for a second.
We have different opinions on this tragic event, but for some to pretend it means you are cheering on the death of some writers in France is beyond disingenuous and moronic.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)If your argument works for one subject but not the other, it's worthless special pleading.
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)We have zero accountability when it comes to firearms, so something should be done "about the risk of physical harm."
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)For example, stop using the term "accident" to describe the criminal negligence that leads to a child finding a gun and ammo and shooting someone or themselves.
I'm with you on that, Lordquinton!
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Is murder an acceptable response to being offended?
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)expected it" drivel.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)One should reasonably expect to be raped if one dresses provocatively. You can't blame the rapist for being taunted and baited. You should have foreseen the possibility of being raped. And on and on.
It's a disgusting attitude, basically just writing off the responsibility of the people COMMITTING THE REAL CRIME. They couldn't help themselves. They warned you. You knew. Ugh.
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)It says more about you than about me.
It's an insult to women and to victims of rape to compare the two, you should be ashamed.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Whatever helps you sleep at night, I guess.
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)Especially here at the ocean, even with the windows closed you hear the ocean.
It's almost too loud when the windows are open!
Today I'm working on my laptop but glancing out frequently because whales have been sighted in recent days.
I saw some sea otters a bit ago, an indication of some food. The whales are often not far behind.
Bodies of water keep me at peace, that's why I don't get upset the way others do when their foistings are rejected.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Willful ignorance is the best sleep-aid, I hear.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)I love the fog horns on the bay.
They are giving you a hard time but don't let it get you down.
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)I'm a Pisces, I think it's in my blood.
And, they say that our bodies have roughly the same salinity and many of the same minerals as the ocean.
It's hard to get me down after surviving three head surgeries last year.
And that last one in November, when they removed the infected chunk of skull, brought me to an almost unnatural state of joy and gratitude.
Take care, my friend. I wish we weren't at opposite oceans!
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Unsurprising post from you.
Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #42)
cleanhippie This message was self-deleted by its author.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Here's another way of stating the problem with your position.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=176479
Curmudgeoness
(18,219 posts)that the editor fully expected to be murdered over these cartoons? I hardly think that is the case. It isn't about becoming a martyr.....that is for the religious crowd. It comes down to standing up to the bully and not allowing one view to silence you.
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)It's sort of a battle cry among martyrs.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2900259/Gunmen-kill-11-Charlie-Hebdo-attack.html#ixzz3OGKwIn2D
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
It is this very impertinence, this freedom to rebel against ideologies, structures and hierarchies through art and literature, that has been targeted. France is known for its triad "liberty, equality, brotherhood" engraved at the helm of every school, on all official buildings. This motto attributed to French theologian and writer Francois Fenelon at the end of the 17th century was popularised during the French Revolution, when popular unrest toppled religious and authoritative powers. This philosophy was central to Charlie Hebdo's editorial line and promoted by Charb, known for his firm leftist stands, and for advocating for more justice and wealth redistribution.
Yet, the likely beneficiaries of this heinous act will be the very opponents of this libertarian and humanist stance. A few hours after the events, extreme right leader Marine Le Pen immediately seized the opportunity to unleash her short-sighted Islamophobic attacks. While spontaneous gatherings and demonstrations took place across the country to show the country's grief and support for the victims, Le Pen dissuaded her supporters from participating. She later set conditions for taking part in the Republican march organised for next Sunday.
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2015/01/defining-moment-french-right-20151812591698588.html
"Yet, the likely beneficiaries of this heinous act will be the very opponents of this libertarian and humanist stance. "
I'm not alone in questioning the efficacy of this approach to fighting fundamentalism...
~~~
Curmudgeoness
(18,219 posts)"I'd rather die standing than live kneeling."
These statements do not mean that the speaker is looking to die, or expects to become a martyr. It may say that they are not afraid of death, but I do not believe that they were looking for it.
You keep saying that satire and cartoons are not the way to deal with the fundamentalist (or any bullies, I suppose). So how should these people be dealt with? What are the answers? What strategy will make an iota of difference to them, because I don't see them ever sitting around the campfire. The amount of rage in them, fueled by religion, will not disappear until they die. I believe that they will continue hating no matter what we do. So what is the solution?
cbayer
(146,218 posts)This one in particular:
'I'd rather die standing than live on my knees'
I don't know about you, but I read that as his knowing that he might come to a violent end.
Did you know that the offices had been previously firebombed?
There are all kinds of martyrs and they aren't all religious. When you stand up to bullies and not allow them to silence you, they often turn up the heat.
Sometimes events like this result in blowing the cover off things and leading to some positive change. It's the best we could hope for as a result of this heinous crime.
I do not think it was his wish to die in this way, but he took a stand that he knew came with some risk.
Are you trying to find some way to twist this so that I am the bad guy here?
Curmudgeoness
(18,219 posts)(above), and I am aware of the firebombing as well as the constant death threats. But I still do not think that he was looking to die. To not fear death is not the same as wanting to die, and people who want to be martyrs are hoping to die. I am sure this was not the case here. Even I have said that I would rather be dead than to live (fill in the blank). That doesn't mean that I want to die....totally different.
I am not twisting anything. Those were your words. I am just shocked at how many people are casting blame on the cartoonists for drawing cartoons. I expected more outrage over the terrorists who murdered them or the religion that encourages and condones it....and I see so much "they should have known better". :shakes head:
cbayer
(146,218 posts)generally not looking to die, but they know that they may. He is much like the kansas city doctor who was providing abortion services. He believed in what he was doing and knew what the risks were. Neither wanted to be martyrs, they just realized that they might be.
There is plenty of outrage about the terrorists who committed these murders. There is also analysis of how and why it happened. Discussing that is not casting blame on the cartoonists, it's just assessing the situation.
If you aren't seeing the outrage and seeing a lot of "they should have known better", it might be because you are reading inside a cocoon where people are demonized for, well, just about anything. This might just be a bandwagon and not a reflection of what is really going on here.
And it's certainly not a reflection of my position, no matter what might be said.
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)You probably knew this but others might not.
Words cannot express the profound impression caused by the stirring speech of our magnificent Pasionaria. It was the voice of the fighters of Irun, Oviedo and Malaga that came from her lips; it was they who were appealing for help to the Spanish people, to the champions of the Great Revolution. It was the fighters of Badajoz and other battlefields who were calling to the French people not to allow their sister country to perish in an unequal struggle.
Tears streamed from the eyes of men and women as they listened to Pasionaria, and all hearts contracted with a spasm of pain and rage.
"People of democratic Spain, people who are fighting for the liberty and rights of man!"thundered the voice of Pasionaria, "the whole Spanish peoplesocialists, communists and anarchists alike have taken up arms against the fascist revolt. Fascism shall not pass! "Better die standing, than live kneeling!"
http://www.marxists.org/archive/ibarruri/1936/09/03.htm
cbayer
(146,218 posts)I often have a great deal of respect for people that are willing to put their lives on the line for their cause, as long as I am aligned with that cause. Even if I am not fully aligned with the methods, I do think fighting against theocracy and religious extremism is a good cause.
Rainforestgoddess
(436 posts)I think it's important that everyone see the images.
The farther they are spread, the more we beat the religious extremists who want to curtail our ability to see them.
My Facebook avatar is now a cartoon of a single pencil (yesterday) a broken pencil (today) and the broken pencil sharpened on both sides (tomorrow)
That's how we must respond. Flood the world with more critical analysis of *everything *. Whether it's stupid, offensive or insightful.
So again, thank you for sharing.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)of what this was about with the least bias.
Above there is some talk about martyrdom and the possible silver lining to events like this. If it makes people more aware of the extremism and more people gather to stand against it, that has to be a good thing.
Your avatar sounds wonderful. You might also really like this article from yesterday's LA Times.
http://www.latimes.com/opinion/opinion-la/la-ol-cartoonists-respond-to-charlie-hebdo-attack-20150107-htmlstory.html
oneview
(47 posts)A long and at times quite honorable tradition from the original French Revolution onward.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)the last.
PassingFair
(22,434 posts)Religion, a mediaeval form of unreason, when combined with modern weaponry becomes a real threat to our freedoms. This religious totalitarianism has caused a deadly mutation in the heart of Islam and we see the tragic consequences in Paris today. I stand with Charlie Hebdo, as we all must, to defend the art of satire, which has always been a force for liberty and against tyranny, dishonesty and stupidity. Respect for religion has become a code phrase meaning fear of religion. Religions, like all other ideas, deserve criticism, satire, and, yes, our fearless disrespect. Salman Rushdie
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)is abusive, insulting, exploitative and wrong. It seems some have no empathy for LGBT people who suffer denigrating language from religious quarters, but instant rivers of empathy for stone cold murderers who felt insulted. So they want to use LGBT issues to promote religions which are anti gay by claiming that pro equality artists were the actual bigots.