West Mich. towns riled by atheist's crusade

[rug]

Kahle
(Photo: Kendra Stanley-Mills / AP)

Francis X. Donnelly, The Detroit News
12 a.m. EST January 24, 2015

Norton Shores – What is an atheist doing in the heart of Michigan's Bible Belt?

Raising hell, for one thing.

Mitch Kahle, who moved to this lakefront community in western Michigan a year ago, has quickly made his presence felt.

He convinced Ottawa County to remove a religious sign from a county park, persuaded Grand Haven to turn a 48-foot cross on city land into an anchor, and got two school districts to stop a minister from continuing to hold lunchtime programs at schools.

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/michigan/2015/01/24/west-mich-towns-riled-atheists-crusade/22253013/

[edhopper]

1. Sounds like all positive things

even if he is a "Militant fundamentalist anti-theist".

[rug]

2. I find the sociology of the whole thing fascinating.

I hope you read the entire article.

[edhopper]

3. Yes

or at least scanned it.
I'll give it another go.

[edhopper]

4. You mean the people who think they live in a Christian country?

confronted by someone who shows them they don't?

[rug]

5. That, and the langage both sides are using.

That, and the different persons and groups who are slowly emerging and choosing sides.

That, and how he's transplanted a strategy he used successfully in Hawaii into western Michigan, a homogeneous, Calvinist region that could hardly be more different.

[edhopper]

7. And yet

he is meeting some success. Which I applaud. I don't think religion belongs in the public sector. (no, I'm not saying religion can't be public)

He certainly doesn't mince words.

[longship]

33. West Michigan is a Calvanist stronghold.

There is a reason that there is a town called Holland on the coast of Lake Michigan. The Dutch Reformed Church is strong here. In fact, it very well may be the Dutch Reformed center. That's why Grand Rapids has Calvin College in its midst.

It also is why half of Grand Rapids is named AmWay, or DeVoss -- Calvinists all. And let us not forget Blackwater, also a Calvanist front from the evil DeVoss family.

Voting Democrat here is a singular useless exercise. Yet my good friends and I soldier on.

[edhopper]

34. “Be not afeard;

the isle is full of noises,"

[longship]

38. Hehehehehe! What? Me worry? nt

[rug]

35. I went to Gerry Ford's grave there a few years ago.

[longship]

37. What one should do is tour the Gerry Ford Museum.

It has an Oval Office replica, always good entertainment, probably used in multiple Hollywood films.

The best things in Grand Rapids are Art Prize and Founders Brewing. The former is radical and crazy artworks, the latter is really good food and superb brews.

Unfortunately, all the good restaurants downtown are closed on Sunday. The Calvanists roll up all the sidewalks.

[rug]

39. It was closed when I got there.

We were staying at the Amway Grand Plaza and I decided to talk a walk along the river. Lo and behold, there he was.

[Dorian Gray]

40. Founders

All Day IPA is one of our favorites to bring to weekend get togethers with friends.

[cbayer]

36. I took my kids to Traverse City once for some meetings I had to go to.

They had never seen a place so white and called it "Pleasantville" (like the movie). It was indeed without color and felt very calvinistic.

[cbayer]

6. Firebrand?

While I support his cause(s), I sure wish he could proceed without being antagonistic. Maybe it's not possible in this case.

I was not aware that there was a bible belt in Michigan and that people in Michigan called outsiders carpetbaggers. Live and learn.

[rug]

8. It's very mch a Bible belt.

It's the home of Thomas Nelson / Zondervan publishers as well as WestBow Press, a Christian self-publishing company. I have no doubt a lot of the books that are routinely scorned in here come from there. It's also the home of Calvin College, not to mention Gerry Ford's old district. I have cousins in Grand Rapids and when I'm out there there's a fundy flavor, distinctly different from the South, but still fundy. Kind of like Thai food compared to Szechuan, distinctly different but still Asian.

[cbayer]

10. I haven't spent much time there, obviously.

I did go to a meeting in Traverse City and spent a few days. My kids had never been to a place so homogeneous in their lives and called it Pleasantville.

I guess this should not surprise me.

[edhopper]

9. Michigan is a

two State kind of place.

That's how they end up with people like Rick Snyder.

[cbayer]

11. I'm getting the picture.

It sounds so, well, southern!

[okasha]

21. All-purpose gadfly.

I give him props for taking his causes out into the real world under his own name rather than making a career as an anonymous keyboard warrior.

[cbayer]

23. Agree with that. I think his cause is good and he deserves much

credite for pursuing his agenda.

I just wish he could do it in a less hostile way, but sometimes fire has to be fought with fire.

[okasha]

24. There comes a point in working to move away from the status quo

where confrontation needs to give way to negotiation, then cooperation. Malcolm X. learned this when he made the pilgrimage to Mecca. Some people can't or won't make the transition(s), though. I suspect this man is one of the latter. Hence the "scowl for the camera, dear" photo.

[cbayer]

25. Scowl for the camera! Priceless.

The image seems purposefully menacing, doesn't it? It seems to reflect his persona.

[on point]

28. Grassroots resistance to creeping theocracy and facism

[cbayer]

29. And I support that.

The only thing I object to is the hostility on both sides. I would rather see them building bridges than firewalls.

He is on the right side on this and I hope he is able to change hearts and minds.

[on point]

30. I agree peace and discussion best way forward always

Last edited Sun Jan 25, 2015, 12:17 PM - Edit history (1)

We have a problem now with people who do not respect the constitution and rights of others. They should've self policed and said , no these religious displays don't belong in public spaces. It is not the person who put up resistance and called them on it that committed the affront. It is those who did it in first place that did and are the ones deserving of condemnation for breaking the peace, not the one who resisted

[cbayer]

31. We see a lot of stories in here about this and I think

there is general agreement that enforcement of state/church separation is a good thing. Sometimes it is done in a positive way and other times things escalate.

I would rather see this as an opportunity to educate so there are less issues over time.

If I point fingers, I will do it at both sides. I think he is unnecessarily adversarial and says some really hostile things about religion in general. I think the other side goes way over the line in their threats and name calling.

One of the things I generally like about FFRF is that they generally take the high road. They don't usually lower themselves to the derisive name calling that so further alienates people.

[Cartoonist]

12. The man is an American Hero

No question about it. He is putting his life on the line for freedom.

He has received hate mail and death threats, and been cursed at by Christians.

To citizen blues, what do you think of that? Can you provide any examples of an atheist making death threats?

During the two sessions, 15 people spoke about the sign, virtually all wanting it to be returned. One compared its removal to the Holocaust.

This is an insult not only to everyone of the Jewish faith, but to humanity itself. That is what is known as Christian privilege.

persuaded Grand Haven to turn a 48-foot cross on city land into an anchor

So, religion does have some use after all. Ha Ha Ha

[cbayer]

13. Er, there are a lot of examples of atheists making death threats.

Perhaps you are completely unaware of what has happened to some of the prominent women involved in organized atheism, but "death threat" would be a mild way of describing what some of their fellow atheists have made.

Just google atheists women death threats and you will get more than you could imagine.

This position that atheists are saintly is ridiculous. They are human and just as there are bad people in any group, there are bad people in that one.

Religion has lots of uses. For example, it give you something to hate on and a whole lot of people to feel superior to.

[Cartoonist]

14. Huh???

I did google it and found nothing but death threats towards atheists. Show me some examples of atheists making death threats against Christians.

[cbayer]

15. These are atheists making death threats against other atheists.

You asked for example of atheists making death threats and there are plenty to be had.

There are also death threats and other horrible behavior exhibited by atheists towards some women who are speaking out about video games.

There is a subculture of rank misogyny deep within the atheist community. It is a small but really heinous group. It should not be ignored, but exposed and marginalized.

[Cartoonist]

16. Poor examples

I acknowledge that there are bad atheists. I am specifically looking for examples of bad atheists making death threats against Christians over the issue of religious freedom. Those assholes playing video games have nothing in common with this issue. Quit reaching.

[cbayer]

17. You have radically moved the goalposts, cartoonist.

This is what you said:

Can you provide any examples of an atheist making death threats?

I provided them. They are examples.

I'm not reaching. I am objecting to you taking completely unsupportable positions.

Now you have moved the goalposts to this:

bad atheists making death threats against Christians over the issue of religious freedom

which is a much more highly defined request.

I am not aware of that having happened and there is no question that it happens the other way frequently.

But some vandals did smash a statue of jesus in a cemetery in California yesterday, lol.

http://ktla.com/2015/01/23/vandals-desecrate-2-graves-smash-jesus-christ-tombstone-at-cemetery-in-san-gabriel/

[Cartoonist]

18. Hardly

The issue under discussion was religious freedom, not video games. You moved the goalposts in a childish attempt at scoring some points.

Last I looked, a statue wasn't a living being. Still reaching.

[cbayer]

19. OK, if you can't see the difference between your original request and

your subsequent request, I guess we have nothing more to talk about.

In addition, when you resort to ad homs like "childish attempt at scoring some points", you have already lost the debate.

[okasha]

20. He lost the debate back in post 12.

[cbayer]

22. I know. This is how this usually unwinds.

[on point]

26. Sounds great! Fight back against those who can't respect boundaries

[terip64]

27. Highly kick and recommend! n/t

[forsaken mortal]

32. Satanic Temple

Just make the spaces open to all religions, I'm sure the locals will be tolerant of the goat god that comes to visit.