Religion
Related: About this forumHow sure are you that atheists don't "get" religion?
After all, many atheists (myself among them) weren't always atheists.
Apparently the scientific viewpoint that many atheists adopt just doesn't "translate" into religion, doesn't properly apply to religion. Didn't I, however, once speak that strange other "language" of religious thought myself? Wouldn't I know its nuances and see the translational difficulties?
Would you propose that I've forgotten the language of my youth? Or must it be the case that any atheist who abandons religion simply must not have be that good at the religious thing in the first place, otherwise they would have stuck with it?
Would you entertain the possibility that many atheists don't much care for religion because they understand it too well?
Permanut
(5,628 posts)but virtually every atheist I've ever known has an extensive knowledge about the claims of religion, and particularly about Christianity. My take on it is that atheism is a well considered option. I'm more of an agnostic; I have no idea why we're here, but it's pretty damn cool.
cstanleytech
(26,318 posts)You see it all starts when a man loves a women............................................
Permanut
(5,628 posts)I gotta say, I do have that part figured out.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)made no damn sense, and gradually became an atheist.
I remember what I felt as an Christian, but as far as intellectual understanding of religion, frankly it was that very questing and questioning that lead me to abandon it. I cannot wrap my mind around the idea of any reasonably educated person being honestly religious.
tama
(9,137 posts)Beautifully and honestly said. As for the reason of that inability, three possibilities come to mind:
1) Belief that it is objectively impossible to do so
2) It is possible but there is strong unwillingess to do so for some reason
3) There is will to comprehend the idea, but so far unsuccesfull
In case 3) e.g. open dialogue could offer some help. But preferably with someone else than me, as you have stated that you have developed strong negative prejudice against the appearance of my person.
Common Sense Party
(14,139 posts)It's not just the language--many times they have that, but they've lost (or never had) the meaning, the motivation, or the ability to put it into practice.
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)I find I, who have always been an atheist... even when forced to attend church.... seem to know more about religions than their followers. I even find Hinduism and Shinto and, hell, Greek mythology fascinating and know about them too.... not just one sect of one religion. I love Bach and I can hear and understand what he is expressing in his amazing and beautiful Cantatas (I like Indian music too). There's nothing there that we all haven't experienced.
I also understand when something makes no sense, is obsolete and contradictory.
longship
(40,416 posts)Plus I would argue that many theists just go to church and not think too much about what their religion really states.
What has spurned me to learn more about religion is my atheism.
HeiressofBickworth
(2,682 posts)figured out which church the rich people attended and that's where she took us. She wasn't into the dogma or actual practice, just wanted to be where the upper class spent their Sunday mornings. Therefore, religion was never a big part of my young life. I remember when I was in high school, the school library had a set of small books -- one book for each of the major religions in the world. I read each and every one of them. I wish I could remember the author. By the time I finished, I figured they couldn't ALL be right, therefore they ALL had to be wrong. Atheism was the only thing that made sense to me then and to this day (I'm 66).
Yes, there is a "language" religious people speak with one another. For me, it's like listening to people discuss the divinity of the holy trinity, the easter bunny, Santa, and leprechauns.
JFN1
(2,033 posts)I was a strict Lutheran (Missouri Synod) until I found the hypocrisy of living those beliefs impossible to take - once I stopped fearing the "terrible consequences" of disbelief that had been pounded into me, I found I could no longer take my religion seriously.
It led me to this saying, which has been confirmed over and over by my experience: "The barb of religion must be inserted into the mind while young, else the mind has opened too far to accept it as a necessary truth."
sakabatou
(42,170 posts)The fact that I saw nor felt any presence of God. After learning much about the sciences, especially biology and astronomy, I decided that God is not needed. God is extraneous.
I think the first time I actually asked and was puzzled about my own religion was when I was picking pycantha berries on Saturday. A kid near me said that I can't pick them because it's Shabbat. I asked why and he responded: "You just can't." At the time, I didn't give a second notice and stopped picking (for the moment).
Response to Silent3 (Original post)
Duppers This message was self-deleted by its author.
BlueMTexpat
(15,372 posts)There are too many things that I personally have seen to make me totally deny the possibility of something that may exist but that has yet to be explained. Or is simply inexplicable by any known logic.
But I certainly understand your point. To my mind, there is no one "religion" on earth, especially anything that is institutionalized, that provides a satisfactory explanation.
As to your point, there is at least one poll that shows that agnostics and atheists are actually the best informed about religion. This link is from two years back. http://news.discovery.com/human/atheists-best-informed-about-religion.html
eqfan592
(5,963 posts)Even Dawkins is willing to say there is a extremely small mathematical possibility. An atheist (generally) is simply somebody who doesn't believe such a deity exists, and will continue to believe as such until such time evidence is provided that convincingly points in a different direction (but I'm not holding my breath).
BlueMTexpat
(15,372 posts)I also come from a fairly extensive religious background, but found that even when I was very young and much more naive and susceptible I hated the arbitrary and theological distinctions that religions made among themselves in deciding who is "worthy" and who isn't. Also, as a female, I simply could not believe that I am the lesser being, which is what the majority of established religions teach, or that those who are not practitioners of the religion in which I was raised are forever damned. And what the heck does "damned" mean anyway? When I see the extremely wretched lives that too many here on earth live, including watching their loved ones starve, die or be tortured, I simply cannot imagine that a Hell after death could be worse. Many of those who are suffering are firm believers. If it helps them endure, fine. But I wonder what kind of sadistic Supreme Being would put them through it or why. To "test their faith" is a too-easy cop-out answer, IMO.
My hesitation to cross the line is based more on a "gut" feeling than on any logic. For me, the idea of God has always been more like the allegory of the blind men and the elephant, where each blind man describes the part of the elephant that he personally experiences and insists that is what the elephant is. In fact, the elephant is none of those, nor is it even the sum of those, it is something entirely outside the blind men's experience.
But the point about being atheists being well-informed is an excellent one. In my experience, non-Christians often have a better understanding about what Christianity should be than many Christians do and they are certainly better informed about Christianity's beliefs and tenets than most Christians are about Christianity, let alone any non-Christian religion.
tama
(9,137 posts)And the allegory of blind men and elephant applies not only to idea of God but also to science and idea of nature.
eqfan592
(5,963 posts)And I think we are in general agreement. I can also appreciate your hesitation to "cross the line," as you put it. It was much the same for me for years, and to be honest I'm not exactly sure when I actually crossed the line, it just sort of happened. Maybe the same will happen to you, and maybe it won't, but either way you seem to be an eminently self-aware person, and I have a great deal of respect for that.
Thank you for your thoughts.
bpollen
(110 posts)Believers and non-believers have the same proof for their side: none. Agnostics just have a fear of commitment.
Religion, like politics, is all fine in theory. Then people get involved and everything goes to shit.
Silent3
(15,259 posts)I don't believe in leprechauns. Should I need proof to not believe in them?
When I say "I don't believe in leprechauns" do you automatically read that as me stomping my foot down and insisting leprechauns don't exist, no way, no how?
If you don't make that mistake, if you do understand that not having belief in a thing is not the same thing as insisting upon the nonexistence of that thing, do you see that as "fear" of commitment?
What's so virtuous about commitment? Doesn't it matter what it is that you're committing to? Might there not be issues where non-commitment is the more sensible position, where committing is simply foolish, not strong or noble?
Duppers
(28,125 posts)My self-deleted post above was intended for another thread. Sorry.
Silent3
(15,259 posts)Most of the times I've self-deleted a post it was simply because it was in the wrong thread, or written as a reply to the wrong post.
I guess you worry a bit, as do I, that someone will see your self-delete and assume that you posted something awful and then changed your mind about posting it.
tama
(9,137 posts)that former addicts like alcoholics and nicotinists often behave very judgementally towards those who continue drinking and smoking without major problems, which can create lots of social stress. Perhaps the situation with SOME atheists who are former Christians is analogical.
As there are also many people who go on religion hopping from cult to cult and from object of belief to object of belief it is also worth considering that the problem in those cases is deeply ingrained psychological and not necessarlly very consciouss psychological need to believe in something and to belong to some social group of shared belief system. So it is quite possible and plausible that also SOME atheists who are former Christians have not grown out from the psychological religious and authoritarian need to believe in something and project that attitude e.g. to scientific theories and paradigms, such as materialism and positivism.
It is alse very well known that we humans have deep psychological need to construct and defend positive (socially acceptable) self-images and endless ability of self-deception. Together with strong tendency to project what is condemnable and denied in self to other persons. And if weakening and gradual liberation of these psychological mechanisms is desired, empirical science and spiritual practices and traditions are in agreement about importance and benefit of introspective methodologies.
Such insight! Such wisdom! How could anyone object to the wisdom of your observations... without being a projecting power-game-playing imperialist, that is?
Have a cookie!
Edit: Can't forget "projecting"!
dmallind
(10,437 posts)cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Silent3
(15,259 posts)Never can get enough.
tama
(9,137 posts)it's just more. "Better" is about quality, not quantity. And more proof of the belief system that more is better and that only quantity matters is not better.
Silent3
(15,259 posts)If I say more is better, then more is better. I feel it deep down inside, so you can't argue with that. You're trying to deny me my experience, and trying to keep all of the quantum to yourself and your corporate masters.
tama
(9,137 posts)Well done!
But let's try to examine the geometric shape of "imperialistic" positivism rationally and qualitatively.
Assuming that consciousness refers to relation of self-reference, and that science is a dynamic process of self-correction in dialogue between systems and their environment, then it seems obvious that self-correction is not possible without introspective methodologies of self-referentiality. Thus in terms of ability to self-correct, positivist rejection of introspection and intuition becomes in fact anti-scientific ideological attitude not unlike religious dogmatism. Rejection of consciouss self-reference and self-correction and dogmatical attitude towards propositional claims leads to "imperialistic" projection of dogmatic belief systems and mechanistically repetitive behavior to environment instead of evolutionally sound self-corrective adaptation to constantly changing environment and dynamical interaction.
The positivist attitude that rejects introspection and practicis only extrospective projection considering nature and environment nothing but objects is in deed 'supernatural' positioning of the positivist subject over nature instead of participatory relation, as the self-corrective and adaptive consciouss relation of dynamic interactive participation in and with environment is forgotten and denied.
Silent3
(15,259 posts)In case you haven't figured it out, I've decided discussing anything with you is utterly fruitless because you've already declared quite plainly and proudly the array of defenses you'll bring forth: slippery, self-serving definitions of words, accusations of authoritarianism and imperialism and domination whenever it suits you, making childishness a virtue (by the way, a hint to someone for whom English is a second language: I think you were going for "child-like", not "childish", although your accidental word choice has a lovely irony), etc.
At this point all I intend to do with you is turn your own annoying rhetorical devices back on yourself for the entertainment value of it.
it's been clear for long time that you form an image of me as a rationalization that justifies refusal of communication.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)Wooooowoooooo!
tama
(9,137 posts)emotional reactions of the positivist religion are quite predictable.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)Because that's the way I read your post.
tama
(9,137 posts)are an addiction.
edhopper
(33,606 posts)alien-UFOs or ESP or the Loch Ness monster and found out that it was total bullshit. This can't be the result of allowing rational thought to shape their ideas, they must be former addicts who can't stand anyone else believing what they now reject for their own emotional reasons.
Yeah, that's it.
Leontius
(2,270 posts)it deserves an answer, No.
edhopper
(33,606 posts)don't care for religion?
Are you sure that most atheists are indeed anti-Christian positivists "True Atheists"? What about e.g. Buddhist etc. atheists who care for spiritual experiences and what religions can offer in that respect?
edhopper
(33,606 posts)to clarify his answer???
Or are you just here to nitpick that I absent mindedly put in most instead of many. Which is immaterial to my question.
OP: Would you entertain the possibility that many atheists don't much care for religion because they understand it too well?
Leonitus: No.
tama
(9,137 posts)Leontius
(2,270 posts)radical, so much more intellectually sophisticated, so much more progressive than those they consider inferior. For some it is a reaction to a perceived hurt they have had in the past that they can only see religion as the cause. For some it has been a discovery that they just can't believe without some material evidence to give it a foundation their minds can accept. They may have tried to believe and even wanted to believe but in the final analysis it just doesn't make sense, it defies their reason or they just examined it logically and dispassionately and found the same conclusion, faith is an unreasonable leap beyond the physical known .
edhopper
(33,606 posts)because they have carefully considered the premise of religion and rejected it. In other words they understand religion too well.
Leontius
(2,270 posts)They only go as far as their ability to see based on the physical world will take them. The truth is they read the words without real understanding. It's the only thing Gnostic's really grasped there is a "revealed knowledge" to some aspects of Christianity. 'They understand it too well' is not the case the way I see it and some confirm it here everyday.
eqfan592
(5,963 posts)I'm only an atheist because I did not really understand the words I was reading for years on end. And obviously we confirm that we don't "understand it too well" here every day, otherwise we wouldn't be atheists in the first place!! That can really be the only explanation! No, there's nothing insulting or ignorant at all with your line of reasoning, and I appreciate you showing me the error of my ways.
Leontius
(2,270 posts)eqfan592
(5,963 posts)And you did indeed clear that right up. Thanks!
edhopper
(33,606 posts)Of course I find your argument completely without merit.
Leontius
(2,270 posts)Some people have faith in the existence of God and others can't see any reason to believe it. I tend to just leave it at that.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)edhopper
(33,606 posts)cbayer
(146,218 posts)Do you mean just see it as useless and ignore it? Or do you mean are hostile towards it? Or do you mean something entirely different?
edhopper
(33,606 posts)"Would you entertain the possibility that many atheists don't much care for religion because they understand it too well?"
Leonitus answers: "No."
I am not making any statements. I "mean" nothing.
I am asking Leonitius since he disagrees with the OP why he thinks many atheist don't care for religion.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)I agree with Leonitus. I don't think many atheists disdain for religion comes from some great source of understanding that every one else is missing.
Each has an individual perspective which is unique. They may feel that there perspective is "knowing it well", but it is nothing but their perspective.
Basically the way I interpret that particular question by the OP is this:
I reject religion because I really know it so I have the authority to judge it. If you were as smart as me and really understood it, you would reject it, too.
Pretty insulting, that.
edhopper
(33,606 posts)the OP is referring to some who have questioned whether his atheism is just because he doesn't "get" religion. He is saying that since many atheist were religious once, we do in fact, "get" religion. And thinking that we are just to blind to see "the truth" is what is really insulting.
Quite the opposite, many atheist know about religion more than the faithful. Maybe it is this knowledge which has lead us to not believe.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)I am sure it has been said, but I have never seen it said here, that someone is an atheist because they just "don't get it". I can certainly see how that would be insulting.
OTOH, I do frequently see religious people told that they just don't get it (or worse, that they are delusional, child like, marks or just plain stupid).
Maybe we should all stop the name calling and just accept that each of us sees the world differently and, as long as we share some important goals and values, it doesn't really matter.
Why does this have to be a contest in which one side or the other wins?
edhopper
(33,606 posts)thinks atheist don't become so after they become well versed in religious ideas.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)edhopper
(33,606 posts)He doesn't seem to want to qualify his flippant remark.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)You don't have religion, by definition, but I have no idea what you mean by "get".
You have your own perspective on it, understanding of it, opinion on it. Is that "getting" it?
Lots of theists and deists also have a *scientific viewpoint* (if by that you mean they are scientifically trained). What does that have to do with anything at all.
If you find the language of religion strange and difficult to translate, maybe you actually don't get it. But only you would know that.
I have never thought for a minute that those who abandoned religion for atheism did so because they just didn't get it. The reasons are as numerous as there are individuals who have made this choice, imo.
This just reads like a lot of chest thumping or saber rattling to me.
darkstar3
(8,763 posts)has any basis criticizing it? How about the man who keeps telling us here on this board that we have "no idea" what Christianity is really about? He is one rather egregious example of someone telling atheists on this board that we just don't get it.
And I'm pretty sure you know him.
Thats my opinion
(2,001 posts)but not much of a religion that has thoughtful, authentic substance. If you did, you probably wouldn't hate it because so much of what you hold we hold in common. But then if you couldn't hate that view of religion which you might come to know---not come to believe in--that would take a weapon out of your hands. So you might as well pretend that it doesn't exist, and the only religion there is is something you can hate.
Of course people who are not internal to a faith can criticize it. I never said anything different. But there is a difference between knowing objectively and knowing subjectively as well as objectively.
I once found the following note in a hotel room in Ithaca N.Y.
"The management would like to know if our new shower heads are working properly. Our maids can't tell. The only way to really know is to stand under one. Please fill out the enclosed form with your evaluation."
eqfan592
(5,963 posts)...in this nation know what it is to "stand under" the "shower head" of religion. For me personally I was a confirmed Lutheran and at one point was considering becoming a pastor.
Also, you seem to like the word "hate" a lot. Hate is a very powerful emotion, and while I'm sure there are some atheists that hate religion, speaking for myself personally I don't think it applies. The only thing I come even close to hating is the negative impacts OF religion. You speak of "thoughtful, authentic substance" that can be found in religion. Do you believe this substance requires religion in order to be found? If not, then what exactly is the point of religion?
And my asking that question isn't a matter of me "hating" religion. These are questions I had to ask myself on my own journey many times. They are honest questions, and the answers I found are what lead me to become an agnostic and then eventually an atheist.
Thats my opinion
(2,001 posts)Of course there are those who post here who do not hate religion. i take you at your word about that. But there are others who clearly do.
eqfan592
(5,963 posts)..revealing their beliefs to friends and family, which may be responsible for the disdain some may feel about religion.
For me personally, why my experience was relatively pain free (outside of one particular incident with my mother), I also have many other issues with the uses that organized religion are put too.
darkstar3
(8,763 posts)and that includes accusing outsiders of bigotry simply because they have no patience for your piety.
And you're not helping. Not one bit.
ellisonz
(27,711 posts)Silent3
(15,259 posts)...so I'm a bit baffled you'd even need to have examples pointed out.
In a less obvious example, consider that Paul Wallace "How to Reconcile Science and Religion" article: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/paul-wallace/how-to-reconcile-science-_b_1404660.html
I don't agree that there's any "translation" problem. I think that religion and science don't mesh to well because religion relies on irrational thinking. Not just "different" thinking or "another way" of thinking, not something "beyond logic" or "beyond science", simply contrary to rational thought. Some ideas might be called "non-logical" or "non-rational", ideas which are neither supported by nor in opposition to logic and rationality, but I find that religion goes all the way to being contrary to rational thought.
The fact that I'd even say what I just said makes many people I've said it to say, one way or another, that I just "don't get it".
I have been religious before, however. I have had faith. I've thought I've felt the presence of God. Now that I don't believe, what has happened? Did I somehow forget some "other way of knowing" that I once had?
Or was I simply not "good enough" a believer before I stopped believing to have had that "other way of knowing"?
tama
(9,137 posts)between rational thinking and rationalizing.
Proposition "we positivists are rational and them (other) religionists are irrational" is not rational thinking, it is rationalizing is support of irrational belief.
Silent3
(15,259 posts)Don't you go trying to impose your authoritarian definitions on me to push your agenda!
of environmental evolutive adaptation is not mine and it pushes itself.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)then your post 37 above must have been a useless waste of bandwidth. Not to mention an imperialistic corruption of non-linear quantum forces.
tama
(9,137 posts)but the implied bivalent logic is unnecessarily limiting strawman rhetorics. As the push for adaptation can (and does) happen also on the level of rational inquiry and scientific study - without needing to be limited to those.
Environmental etc. science and many philosophical and religious views and attitudes (but not all, of course) concur on the assesment of our situation and need of very deep changes to remain adaptive. Positivist defense mechanisms against self-correcting introspection which could result in more adaptive behavioral changes can also be rationally analyzed and understood.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)see any need for reconciliation or be open-minded enough to search for one.
Those that dismiss religion as is irrational and illogical will find themselves in the same position as those that deny basic science.
It's all right. You don't have to get it. You don't have to reconcile it and the chances of you ever wanting to are slim to none.
Silent3
(15,259 posts)I see you avoided that question.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)Silent3
(15,259 posts)It's only by your reasoning that something either must now be missing, or I must not have had that special something needed to properly appreciate religion in the first place.
I'm sure you can hand-wave away the problem here, making it "personal", making it about what I want or don't want should do the trick.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)What hand-wave? What problem?
You have lost me here.
Thats my opinion
(2,001 posts)I cannot answer a question only you can answer. Given the nature of the religion you lost, the answer may be "very little."
Silent3
(15,259 posts)...that there's either something I lost or something I never had. I don't buy that myself, which is why I think you should be able to name what's supposedly missing.
and just maybe (it's for you to answer), it's not about losing something and needing it, but still carrying some unnecessary package that can also be lost.
eqfan592
(5,963 posts)Which is inherently irrational and illogical. There are theists who understand and accept this, and it does not deter their faith. And while I may not share their faith, I respect them for their honestly and self-awareness.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)While I agree that irrational and illogical may be technically correct terms to describe faith, they are used as pejorative descriptors and put people on the defensive. And they all too often lead to words like "delusional", which would not be at all technically correct.
Are there less loaded words that could be used that would accurately describe how faith is different than scientific findings?
eqfan592
(5,963 posts)But I do see your point.
The word "atheist" is a bit the same way, now that I think about it. Perhaps a new language is in order.
darkstar3
(8,763 posts)how long would it take before those we both disagree with "pervert" that language as well?
eqfan592
(5,963 posts)...it would work out better?
For me, I'm no longer going to refer to myself as an atheist. Instead, I will be a Snarliff! I find this word better represents my opinions and beliefs... (sorry, thought a little levity was in order)
cbayer
(146,218 posts)cause that's just how I roll.
eqfan592
(5,963 posts)dimbear
(6,271 posts)Thats my opinion
(2,001 posts)Had their search in other fields been ossified at an immature level, they would be in the same spot regarding those fields of inquiry.
darkstar3
(8,763 posts)do you include the following DUers on your list of "thinking people":
rug
zeemike
zebedeo
Sal316
Because I can tell you from many debates with them that they most certainly do not see God or religion in any way, shape, or form the way you do. In fact, cbayer says she disagrees with many of your views on God and reliigon, so I haven't met a single Christian online or in real life who agrees with your "sophisticated theology."
It seems you view yourself as the only "thinking person" around. I think there's a word for that. I also think that these four believing DUers might take offense to your implication. If you care nothing for the ways in which you insult atheists, do you care at all for the ways in which you insult other Christians?
Thats my opinion
(2,001 posts)And there are plenty of thinking people who have a sturdy faith. What you don't seem to get is that seminaries and schools of religious study and thousands of congregations hold a form of faith that you don't want to believe even exists.
I have never in this forum had a conversation with Cbayer. She is her own person, and while being a very thoughtful person does not agree with me--nor do I expect her to--ever.
darkstar3
(8,763 posts)than actually follow it. You are over generalizing in order to make your POV seem somehow more relevant. It's called a "bandwagon" fallacy, but you're doing it with blind sources and a level of passive-aggression rarely seen in the wild.
The problem is that you just can't possibly convince people that there is such a "bandwagon" when there are so damn many people who hold strongly to a faith you deny is even legitimate. Those many people I refer to include those DUers I mentioned above, and I notice that you managed to dodge the question rather artfully as to whether you think their version of religion is a "thinking" one.
Take a pause here for a moment, and forget about me and other atheists you love to tweak on this board...don't you think it's possible that your continued statements regarding "thinking people" and "sophisticated theology" might offend other Christians?
Back to the topic...I don't buy the "thousands of congregations." You want to give me numbers, you need to give me proof.
Finally, I don't deny that your version of faith exists. That's a straw man of your own building. I recognize that you are different. You believe that the majority is like you.
And you're wrong.
Thats my opinion
(2,001 posts)But if you think it is a tiny sect somewhere, you are just unaware that it forms a significant part of modern religious thought. And there are thousands of congregations, numerous denominations, scores of church councils and most theological schools that hold what i do. It is not a straw man of my own building.
Part of the issue is they rarely appear here. When I try to encourage them to join the conversation, they having read what is normally posted, are just not going to put themselves in a place where they and all they hold will be be regularly trashed. It is not that they are hesitant to enter the lists where they can be challenged, but frankly the nature of the challenges is often so toxic that they just won't submit themselves to that sort of thing.(just reread posts 4,9 75,79,7,10,18,21.34,38,39---just in this one string!) They wonder why I do. But I am not about to leave my Democratic colleagues under the false impression that there is nobody of faith who is somewhere this side of the 16th century.
darkstar3
(8,763 posts)You come at me again with numbers, yet you do not give proof.
And play your victim game somewhere else, I'm not interested.
Thats my opinion
(2,001 posts)and all the other seminaries that were begun by major Universities(excluding the Southern Baptists). Then try the ecumenical seminaries like Union in New York to name one of about thirty.Try the religion departments at about twenty of the Colleges of Cambridge and Oxford. Then take the World and the National Council of Churches. Consider among Catholics most of the Jesuit groups, Orbis Press and the Marynoll groups. Read the National Catholic Reporter and Commoweal. Add Church World Service, Bread for the World, the Religious Coalition for Farm Workers. The Religious. Coalition for Abortion Rights Then there are the Unitarians, the United Church of Christ, major parts of the Methodists, Presbyterians, Disciples, Lutherans--a variety of pro-Gay congregations---I'll give you a list of several hundred of them if you are really interested. Then there is The Christian Century (a widely read periodical among thousands of church people) And this is just a start!
Since your mind is already made up, my guess is that no amount of what you call Proof is going to satisfy you.
darkstar3
(8,763 posts)The Catholic Church
The Lutheran Church Wisconsin Synod
The Lutheran Church Missouri Synod
The Evangelical Lutheran Church of America
The Presbyterian Church (USA) - there are a lot of Presbyterian churches, let's just put them under this heading for now.
The United Methodist Church - there are a lot of Methodist churches, let's just put them under this heading for now.
...
Baptists, Episcopalians, Pentecostals, Apostles, and on, and on, and on...
Not one of those churches, all of which have published statements of faith and published dogmas, agrees with your view of God or religion. They believe in that kind of God that you call outdated. Go and look at their various websites and find out.
But neither one of us knows anything more now than we did two posts ago. Dropping names does nothing. The only thing you need to drop is the passive aggressive bullshit embodied in your last sentence. Then, if you want me to believe you, you need to reach for more than generalities, and certainly more than the religious studies departments of universities, which do not hold any view whatsoever on God or religion.
And let's be clear, that's what this is about. This is not about finding progressive Christians. We both know that they are out there, and you pointing to them in answer to my question is moving the goalposts. I'm looking specifically for proof of those "thousands of congregations" that view God and religion in the same way you do. You know, that "thinking" way, where God is more like "the Force" and Jesus isn't really the son of God.
If there are "thousands of congregations" out there that follow your process theology, then it should be no problem for you to post links to 5 of them. So how about we start there with the proof? Five links, and no bullshit.
Thats my opinion
(2,001 posts)trotsky
(49,533 posts)Just provide 5 links of the "thousands" you say exist.
Do you want to open minds or just bash people and keep them from posting in this group?
darkstar3
(8,763 posts)I care nothing for your digs at my person or your passive-aggression. I only care about proof. If you have any to support your assertion that your "thinking" religion is far-reaching and widespread, I'd say now's your chance to post it.
mr blur
(7,753 posts)trotsky
(49,533 posts)Could you explain, please?
Thats my opinion
(2,001 posts)Why would any theist venture into that sort of water when accusations are made about them with no evidence, just a negative conjecture? Please realize, when you go over the whole list I offered, why so few theists are going to enter this group only to be met by their being trashed.
.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)And let's take a closer look at what that person said:
many theists just go to church and not think too much about what their religion really states
You have previously stated/acknowledged that:
1) Your version of Christianity is liberal, tolerant, progressive, and a more accurate or "true" version than what atheists are attacking.
2) Your version of Christianity is unfortunately not practiced by the majority of Christians.
So what that person said is exactly what you yourself believe. Namely, that many (in fact, you take it a step farther and would say MOST) theists are going to church and not really thinking enough about what their religion really states. So are you the one pushing toxic thoughts then? Are you keeping theists from posting in this group?
Joseph8th
(228 posts)...I think is a convenience -- almost accidental artifact of the politicization of atheism as an antibody to bully fundamentalism. I say this because as an atheist, my path has (like most) been complicated by myriad highly subjective beliefs, which aren't shared by other atheists. It really is a retraction of gullibility for easy answers, one by one, with information and introspection the only known antidote for obsessive curiosity. Atheists will instantly diverge on the details of atheism, but agree with passion that reason, not faith, should inform and guide public discourse and policy. Science, being a universal language, gives us a way to communicate above the noise of the fray.
Whereas science is valueless (and so subject to abuse), atheism implies without encompassing the secular humanist ethos. It's political when expressed outwardly, and philosophical upon introspection. Science doesn't have the political in it's domain, even if it lands in a political range. Atheism does, and is merely informed by science. It isn't a science.
tama
(9,137 posts)science can be valueless (but need not be), in RL where science and humans meet science is never free of ideological components and value judgements. So the suggestion of valueless can be quite delusional and misguiding from philosophical points of view.
In social sciences e.g. the critical school is open about it's (leftist/progressive) values and practicing science based on those values. IMHO it's more honest and productive to be open about ideological presuppositions and attitudes than to try to claim pure value-free objectivity (which can lead to much denial and dishonesty).
Joseph8th
(228 posts)"...in my peanut butter!"
RE: social sciences. Right. Well, I confess I was speaking of the hard sciences. Social sciences are barely sciences, IMHO. And of course it goes without saying, "as an ideal". That said -- in the hard sciences, thanks to the scientific method we get pretty damn close to that ideal, and even occasionally hit it the mark.
Regardless of how close scientists get to the ideal, however, they are still under no obligation to justify or rationalize their research to religious believers who don't even try to achieve that level of objectivity in study.