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ISIS has nothing to do with Islam (Original Post) cleanhippie Nov 2015 OP
Great Cartoon about Islam and peace Gothmog Nov 2015 #1
You just offended some people with your cartoon Yorktown Nov 2015 #2
Yeah, I've got another easily-offended snowflake stalking me in another thread. cleanhippie Nov 2015 #3
It's touching how some really, really want to think religion is good Yorktown Nov 2015 #4
Seems more like deep-seeded hatred and anger to me. cleanhippie Nov 2015 #5
So what is your position on lying does it show good moral character? Leontius Nov 2015 #6
I remember you were quite shifty about Nicaea I, playing loose with words Yorktown Nov 2015 #7
Everything I said about the Council is historical fact. Leontius Nov 2015 #8
We must disagree. Over and out. Yorktown Nov 2015 #9
Not over, but he's out cleanhippie Nov 2015 #11
Unlike religious types who love to do it on me, I did not report Yorktown Nov 2015 #12
It's mere projection and nothing more. cleanhippie Nov 2015 #13
I give you the link you to that discussion on Nicaea 1 if I had had it Yorktown Nov 2015 #14
There is no record of the Council discussing Biblical canon. Leontius Nov 2015 #15
St Jerome says Nicaea 1 decide the gospel of Judith was canonical Yorktown Nov 2015 #16
Hmm. Probably not, since Judith is not a gospel but an earlier Judaic text struggle4progress Nov 2015 #17
Hmm. Probably yes, since you are discussing canonic text Yorktown Nov 2015 #18
Also not canonical but only deutero-canonical in Judaism struggle4progress Nov 2015 #19
Do you really believe Nicaea 1 was trying to decide the canon of Judaism? Yorktown Nov 2015 #20
Nope. I believe you're trawling for reactions, posting struggle4progress Nov 2015 #26
I may be prejudiced but Leontius Nov 2015 #33
I'm afraid I've done my share of stupid in my life, struggle4progress Nov 2015 #35
No it's my word and every Church historian that has written on the Council with one know exception. Leontius Nov 2015 #21
I already told you why you are probably wrong Yorktown Nov 2015 #22
Wrong on the delagate number by a factor of 6 is quite an error Leontius Nov 2015 #25
I speed-read wiki diagonally; it doesn't help you make any valid point Yorktown Nov 2015 #27
I guess you missed section 12.1 Biblical canon Leontius Nov 2015 #28
I guess you missed my answer #22 to which I already directed you Yorktown Nov 2015 #29
Section 12.1 directly contradicts everything you have asserted about Nicaea and Biblical Canon. Leontius Nov 2015 #30
You're wrong on two counts Yorktown Nov 2015 #31
Sure doesn't address it at all Leontius Nov 2015 #32
The point you are referring to explicitly says I am right Yorktown Nov 2015 #34
"War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strengh" Leontius Nov 2015 #36
Have you heard the description "Two bald men fighting over a comb"? mr blur Nov 2015 #37
Do know anything about the issue? Leontius Nov 2015 #38
He left out "compulsive" in an attempt to be nice. cleanhippie Nov 2015 #39
Am I the second 'bald man'? Yorktown Nov 2015 #40
It is also possible Jerome confused what occured at Nicaea with Leontius Nov 2015 #23
See my post #22 Yorktown Nov 2015 #24
No. In fact I think they should be silenced from further debate. cleanhippie Nov 2015 #10
 

Yorktown

(2,884 posts)
4. It's touching how some really, really want to think religion is good
Thu Nov 19, 2015, 06:33 PM
Nov 2015

Some deep, deep psychological wish to retain the pure innocence of childhood?

cleanhippie

(19,705 posts)
5. Seems more like deep-seeded hatred and anger to me.
Thu Nov 19, 2015, 06:51 PM
Nov 2015

Most likely just projection over not being loved enough as a child or something?

 

Leontius

(2,270 posts)
6. So what is your position on lying does it show good moral character?
Thu Nov 19, 2015, 06:51 PM
Nov 2015

Do you trust liars, do you support them?

 

Yorktown

(2,884 posts)
7. I remember you were quite shifty about Nicaea I, playing loose with words
Thu Nov 19, 2015, 06:56 PM
Nov 2015

Are you saying someone here might have once wrongly pointed towards you an accusation which was accurate when directed to a general comment by many believers?

Why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye, brother Leontius?

Your zig-zaging about Nicaea I was not inspiring.

 

Leontius

(2,270 posts)
8. Everything I said about the Council is historical fact.
Thu Nov 19, 2015, 07:01 PM
Nov 2015

The fallacies were yours. Your inability to answer direct questions is becoming obvious and tedious.

 

Yorktown

(2,884 posts)
12. Unlike religious types who love to do it on me, I did not report
Thu Nov 19, 2015, 07:44 PM
Nov 2015

Even if Leontius wrote this charming sentence:

The fallacies were yours. Your inability to answer direct questions is becoming obvious and tedious.

cleanhippie

(19,705 posts)
13. It's mere projection and nothing more.
Thu Nov 19, 2015, 07:57 PM
Nov 2015

Look at his last several posts. All anger and hatred, no on-topic substance, just blatant personal attacks.
Considering his remarks in Interfaith regarding this group, it was totally expected.
It's a shame to see one self-immolate though. Very sad.

 

Yorktown

(2,884 posts)
14. I give you the link you to that discussion on Nicaea 1 if I had had it
Thu Nov 19, 2015, 08:17 PM
Nov 2015

I was not impressed by the level of fortitude of Leontius in that discussion.

He started off by saying it was a 'debunked myth' that Nicaea 1 had busied itself with determining the canonical gospels.

I brought him a quote by 'saint' Jerome proving the contrary.

He never even once acknowledged his mistake, trying to muddle it under multiple sidesteppings.

Oh, well,...



 

Leontius

(2,270 posts)
15. There is no record of the Council discussing Biblical canon.
Mon Nov 23, 2015, 11:59 PM
Nov 2015

Last edited Tue Nov 24, 2015, 01:28 AM - Edit history (1)

There was no action taken by the Council in setting a Biblical canon. Everything decided by the Council was published and is available today. Find any statement of the Council that concerns Biblical canon and post it. Jerome's statement is wrong, plain and simple if, his meaning is that the council took any action on the Book of Judith. It would help to read the documents of the Council before you assert what is in them.

 

Yorktown

(2,884 posts)
16. St Jerome says Nicaea 1 decide the gospel of Judith was canonical
Tue Nov 24, 2015, 12:08 AM
Nov 2015

So it's your word against that of saint Jerome.

And please, spare me the rather weak and obvious loose use of words: "action taken"

According to Jerome, the council came to an oral agreement the gospel of Judith was canonical

It is an action in the sense that the delegates went back home holding that idea.

Actions are not just putting things in black and white.

Welcome back, btw.

 

Yorktown

(2,884 posts)
18. Hmm. Probably yes, since you are discussing canonic text
Tue Nov 24, 2015, 12:48 AM
Nov 2015

OK, I made a mistake about Judith. OT, not NT. And?

You were still wrong when claiming Nicaea 1 did not take canonical decisions.

 

Yorktown

(2,884 posts)
20. Do you really believe Nicaea 1 was trying to decide the canon of Judaism?
Tue Nov 24, 2015, 01:20 AM
Nov 2015

Please, desist from cheap debating tricks, not very interesting.

I was referring to the fact Nicaea 1 did indeed debate what the canonic status of certain texts.

Contrarily to your initial statement about that council. No amount of finagling will cover up that.

Cheap courtroom tactics will only work on the unwary.





struggle4progress

(118,566 posts)
26. Nope. I believe you're trawling for reactions, posting
Tue Nov 24, 2015, 01:55 AM
Nov 2015

wingnut bullshizz by Mark Dice, anti-semitic crap by some wacko, and now arguing about what the council of Nicaea decided about a text that you first incorrectly identified as a gospel and then next incorrectly identified as a Jewish canonical text

Discussion is entertaining when informative: Mark Dice's rightwing propaganda isn't informative; neither is anti-semitic crap; nor is it informative to listen to your arguments about texts you haven't ever bothered to examine

 

Leontius

(2,270 posts)
33. I may be prejudiced but
Tue Nov 24, 2015, 03:49 AM
Nov 2015

I think we can answer the question "Are you smarter than an atheist?" from another OP with a yes here.

struggle4progress

(118,566 posts)
35. I'm afraid I've done my share of stupid in my life,
Tue Nov 24, 2015, 06:44 AM
Nov 2015

and there's probably more idiocy from me ahead too -- but the silly bottom-dragging for reactions from some folk around here certainly doesn't improve the world

 

Leontius

(2,270 posts)
21. No it's my word and every Church historian that has written on the Council with one know exception.
Tue Nov 24, 2015, 01:25 AM
Nov 2015

Jeromes' statement is ambiguous at best but he does not say what he means by validated and wrote this 80 yrs later. No member in attendance has written anything to support it or your contention that any discussion on Canon took place. Considering that Athanasius is considered the father of the Canon and was in attendance at the Council he surely would have written about it. The original statement by MoL was also not just stating some mention or discussion of any possible canon or legitimacy of any books by some bishops but a statement of definitive forming of the Canon at Nicaea at Constantines order. The Catholic Encyclopedia, New Advent and Wikipedia just to mention three sources among many all agree with what I have written.

 

Yorktown

(2,884 posts)
22. I already told you why you are probably wrong
Tue Nov 24, 2015, 01:40 AM
Nov 2015

Nicaea 1 happens in 325.
I already mentioned to you the commissioning of 50 'yardstick' Bibles for the Church of Constantinople by Constantine who was pivotal at Nicaea. That happened in 331.
Since it is unlikely Constantine would have taken the decision of the contents without some degree of consensus among the 1800 Nicaea delegates, there is every reason to suppose some discussion about canonical texts occured. In addition to that referred to by Jerome.

btw, the text of wiki on Nicaea does in no way contradict what I wrote above.
And I wouldn't touch the Catholic Encyclopedia with a barge pole.
Just like Islam's hadiths, it's just party line propaganda.

 

Leontius

(2,270 posts)
25. Wrong on the delagate number by a factor of 6 is quite an error
Tue Nov 24, 2015, 01:49 AM
Nov 2015

Since no mention of the completion or even the content of the so called Constantinian Bibles exists this assertion of your is without any meaning or merit.

 

Yorktown

(2,884 posts)
27. I speed-read wiki diagonally; it doesn't help you make any valid point
Tue Nov 24, 2015, 02:17 AM
Nov 2015

I just speed-read wiki diagonally

Attendees
Constantine had invited all 1,800 bishops of the Christian church (about 1,000 in the east and 800 in the west),

and didn't bother with
but a smaller and unknown number attended. Eusebius of Caesarea counted more than 250,[18] Athanasius of Alexandria counted 318,[9] and Eustathius of Antioch estimated "about 270"[19] (all three were present at the council). Later, Socrates Scholasticus recorded more than 300,[20] and Evagrius,[21] Hilary of Poitiers,[22] Jerome,[23] Dionysius Exiguus,[24] and Rufinus[25] recorded 318. This number 318 is preserved in the liturgies of the Eastern Orthodox Church[26] and the Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria.


Congrats, you just won one internet point.

Redeemable at any well stocked Church near you.

 

Leontius

(2,270 posts)
30. Section 12.1 directly contradicts everything you have asserted about Nicaea and Biblical Canon.
Tue Nov 24, 2015, 03:20 AM
Nov 2015

What you have amounts to someone 80 yrs after the conference saying that the principals at Yalta might have discussed the weather that week.

 

Yorktown

(2,884 posts)
31. You're wrong on two counts
Tue Nov 24, 2015, 03:24 AM
Nov 2015

1- wiki 12.1 doesn't address directly my claim made in answer #22

2- your Yalta example adds fuel to my fire. You do not know if FDR, Churchill and Stalin commented about the weather. Since it is a common topic in general, even more so during wartime if they discussed about this or that current military campaign, it is quite likely they discussed the weather.

Just like canonical texts at Nicaea 1.

 

Leontius

(2,270 posts)
32. Sure doesn't address it at all
Tue Nov 24, 2015, 03:42 AM
Nov 2015

Except it is a total and complete refutation to every point you have made, including the masterful post #22. It destroys all arguments you have presented. And is in complete opposition to anything you have posted on the subject.

 

Yorktown

(2,884 posts)
34. The point you are referring to explicitly says I am right
Tue Nov 24, 2015, 03:52 AM
Nov 2015

Literaly:

In Jerome's Prologue to Judith[68] he claims that the Book of Judith was "found by the Nicene Council to have been counted among the number of the Sacred Scriptures", which suggests that the Nicene Council did discuss what documents would number among the sacred scriptures.

So my post #22 explains to you why, and wiki 12 confirms.

Game, set and match.

 

mr blur

(7,753 posts)
37. Have you heard the description "Two bald men fighting over a comb"?
Tue Nov 24, 2015, 03:02 PM
Nov 2015

Your obsessive behaviour in this thread reminds me of it.

Meanwhile, in the real world, fanatical religious lunatics who differ from you only in the style of delusions they favour, are slaughtering people whose only "crime" is to think for themselves. Something you might try, by the way.

 

Leontius

(2,270 posts)
38. Do know anything about the issue?
Tue Nov 24, 2015, 04:43 PM
Nov 2015

There is only one here with a bald head. And why is only my behavior called "obsessive"?

 

Leontius

(2,270 posts)
23. It is also possible Jerome confused what occured at Nicaea with
Tue Nov 24, 2015, 01:41 AM
Nov 2015

the Council of Laodicea a regional council that was held in 364 and does contain a defined Canon of the Bible.

cleanhippie

(19,705 posts)
10. No. In fact I think they should be silenced from further debate.
Thu Nov 19, 2015, 07:38 PM
Nov 2015


If you see any toupee's while on vacation, do say hi for me.
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