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patrice

(47,992 posts)
Sat Apr 28, 2012, 06:30 PM Apr 2012

Should Boomers fear the version of "liberation theology" held by at least some young?

Should Boomers fear the version of "liberation theology" held by a possibly significant minority of young Americans?

The linked article is a consideration of anarchism as the young's reaction to their own perceived inability to respond effectively to the failures of conventional social justice and problem solving.

I personally see at least some anarchism as a reaction to the religious powers that motivated our involvement in an illegal and immoral war that killed something around 250,000 INNOCENT Iraqis. From this perspective, civil anarchism, against evil government, is more socially acceptable than turning on the religious institutions that have failed social moral development.

I'm curious about all of the faith in anarchy that I see around me and wondering if my generation needs to fear vulnerable elder years that are politically and economically affected by anarchistic youth culture.

I know persons who would say, "No" on the somewhat mystical assumption that anarchism will free the truth and that "freedom" will lead to the discovery that (whatever form de facto "death panels" take) the consequences of economic injustice, though deeply pragmatic and conveniently effective for some, profoundly diminish the whole human mind-heart and America's future political powers, the young of today, will effectively resist that decline.

I think that mind-heart REAL -ization, to which some such anarchistic positions refer, is a potentiality that is progressively diminished by the amount of suffering and pain that occurs over time before we "discover" this particular mind-heart truth about ourselves.

If that diminution of potentials matters to anarchists, then they need to weigh being somewhat less anarchistic in service of this truth, lest we lose this particular potential BEFORE we have a chance to discover what it is.

If that loss and the possibility of de-facto "death panels" doesn't matter to anarchists, I have to ask, "What's the point? Anarchism for the sake of anarchism? Or is there some other payoff? . . . Power? for example.

http://projects.washingtonpost.com/sermons/59/

On a scale of 1-5, what is your average level of concern about the issues associated with decline and aging being politically/economically managed by any generation other than the current generation of elders in that experience?


0 votes, 0 passes | Time left: Unlimited
not concerned enough to notice;
0 (0%)
only just concerned enough to notice;
0 (0%)
concerned, but no more than what might be considered normal;
0 (0%)
concerned somewhat more than what might be considered normal;
0 (0%)
very concerned.
0 (0%)
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Should Boomers fear the version of "liberation theology" held by at least some young? (Original Post) patrice Apr 2012 OP
You seem to be asking 2 different questions. Jim__ Apr 2012 #1
Freedom is the connecting point. patrice Apr 2012 #3
Has the negligable duration of human existance any effect edgineered Apr 2012 #2
So, expect to be put out on an ice flow, right? And you are saying it's not the young, but patrice Apr 2012 #5
You have lost me. Maybe I do not have the ability to see edgineered Apr 2012 #12
Not saying that they aren't wonderful, just young. And I agree with the linked editorial patrice Apr 2012 #13
Gotcha. All sounds like the normal to me. nt edgineered Apr 2012 #15
If you want to discuss liberation theology, maybe you should first learn what it is struggle4progress Apr 2012 #4
I'm not referring to MY understanding of it, but rather to mistakes that CAN be made about it with a patrice Apr 2012 #6
I read your post and then clicked and read the link in your post -- none of which has much to do struggle4progress Apr 2012 #14
In my experience, the different factions acquire synergy from sharing the value that they place patrice Apr 2012 #16
Why do you find it necessary to be so insulting? You could have asked that question in a much patrice Apr 2012 #7
What's more important? Imparting your truth about Liberation Theology? Or being nasty? patrice Apr 2012 #8
This is all new to me and it's pretty dense stuff cbayer Apr 2012 #9
It's my reaction to running into both/all of these perspectives within the Occupy. patrice Apr 2012 #10
Oh, ok. So it's coming out of OWS? cbayer Apr 2012 #11
To be fully honest, I should mention that I have also run across anarcho-expressions about patrice Apr 2012 #18
Can you tell me more? I think an example would help me understand better. cbayer Apr 2012 #20
Not in too much detail, since this is a public board. Just an HR type who expressed clear bigotry patrice Apr 2012 #22
As an anarchist youth of the 60s, I can only dream that today's anarchists Warren Stupidity Apr 2012 #17
The author mentions the '60s. Perhaps you can tell me why/how anarchists patrice Apr 2012 #19
Individualist anarchists have no answers to your questions. Warren Stupidity Apr 2012 #23
From my perspective anarchism is more about destruction for destruction's sake. If it were really patrice Apr 2012 #21
See my other post, but quite simply anarchism is not equivalent to chaos. Warren Stupidity Apr 2012 #24

Jim__

(14,020 posts)
1. You seem to be asking 2 different questions.
Sat Apr 28, 2012, 06:48 PM
Apr 2012

The question in the title is about fear of the liberation theology being embraced by some of the younger generation, and the poll question is about ceding power to the younger generation.

I'm not very informed about the level of anarchy in the younger generation; and the article really didn't give me a feel for how widespread it is. I think any hope offered by anarchy is a delusion, a delusion that highly organized people will use to their advantage and against any anarchists.

Ceding power to a younger generation is inevitable; and, of course it is risky. The older generation has made certain preparations for old age; but, if the next generation does not respect these preparations, they can tear them down. The powers that be are working hard to convince the young that the old are stealing from them - not out of any concern for the young but out of a desire to seize even more power.


patrice

(47,992 posts)
3. Freedom is the connecting point.
Sat Apr 28, 2012, 07:07 PM
Apr 2012

In Liberation Theology that's the freedom NEEDED to living a fully Christian life. In anarchism, it's freedom for freedom's sake (though some of us don't think that anarchism will produce freedom).

Just thinking about all of this passion for freedom I experience from Libertarians, Anarchists, Tea Partyers, and Constitutionalists and wondering how that thread makes it possible to morph one position into the other, especially with our responsibility for what happened to Iraq being a big motivator amongst those who, prior to that, had little inclination to want to fundamentally fight the system in any basic way.

edgineered

(2,101 posts)
2. Has the negligable duration of human existance any effect
Sat Apr 28, 2012, 06:55 PM
Apr 2012

on the nature of our existence or development of sensual perceptions? I maintain human behaviors are no different now than since recorded history use of resources and learned skills do not change human nature.

How wrong can I be? (don't hit me until I take off my glasses. OK?)

patrice

(47,992 posts)
5. So, expect to be put out on an ice flow, right? And you are saying it's not the young, but
Sat Apr 28, 2012, 07:11 PM
Apr 2012

the species? If so, perhaps I should ask about the rate at which the march to the ice-flows might increase, due to the young's infatuation with anarchism.

edgineered

(2,101 posts)
12. You have lost me. Maybe I do not have the ability to see
Sat Apr 28, 2012, 07:38 PM
Apr 2012

the common anarchy of all youths. The young I see today are wonderful and it makes me happy to see them enjoy their young lives.

Then I'm not sure that I understand this. You suggest something occurred to my spiritual existence to change me from youthful anarchist. Can you define the process?

Finally, please direct me to this ice-flow thing so I may be more ready for the ethereal. Obviously I am not ready to die.

patrice

(47,992 posts)
13. Not saying that they aren't wonderful, just young. And I agree with the linked editorial
Sat Apr 28, 2012, 07:55 PM
Apr 2012

that they feel it is impossible to effect real change, so the whole thing should come down, so we can all start over from scratch, and anarchism is the shortest route to ending government: don't vote, don't commit, don't do anything that enables "the beast" and its primary handmaid, government. I suppose the process differs for each person, but according to this author, begins with that sense of futility.

Ice-flow was a joking reference to ancient forms of "elder care". You said something about how human behavior has not been changed that much by the 21st century (which I agree, though there may be significant small differences on the interpersonal level) and I was alluding to older forms of human behavior with that reference to "ice flow".

struggle4progress

(117,766 posts)
4. If you want to discuss liberation theology, maybe you should first learn what it is
Sat Apr 28, 2012, 07:11 PM
Apr 2012

and read some of its texts

patrice

(47,992 posts)
6. I'm not referring to MY understanding of it, but rather to mistakes that CAN be made about it with a
Sat Apr 28, 2012, 07:12 PM
Apr 2012

push from anarchism.

struggle4progress

(117,766 posts)
14. I read your post and then clicked and read the link in your post -- none of which has much to do
Sat Apr 28, 2012, 07:57 PM
Apr 2012

with liberation theology, as I understand liberation theology

patrice

(47,992 posts)
16. In my experience, the different factions acquire synergy from sharing the value that they place
Sat Apr 28, 2012, 08:28 PM
Apr 2012

in what they refer to as freedom and, since freedom, thus, takes such a high priority, they don't get much beyond their intuitive sense of the differences amongst themselves and, hence, have not really committed to one another beyond their shared freedom-high.

This author suggests a connection between the impulse to identify with the freedom posited by anarchism and Liberation Theology in a few places by describing elements of a social dynamic that amount to how those who are authentically free are also free, in a particularly important way, from themselves, which, though similar in its value for freedom, would also differentiate at least some anarchists from Liberation Theologists:

Regardless of culture or religious affiliation, similar prescriptions have been offered by humanity's saints and sages for realizing this feeling of centeredness in joy: serve your brothers and sisters in gratitude as best you can...surrendering attachments to outcomes, as well as personal grievances along the path. . .

This prescription transcends dogma as a pathway of "impersonal empowerment" - the willingness to labor amongst the "shadows of the valley," shining Light where we can, . . .

Friends, we balk at how intractable our social problems seem nary so much out of a sense of being impotent as "unique" personalities... rather, we balk at how powerful we may become as beings able to transcend personal concerns in faithfulness with our fellow beings.


I know he doesn't use the label "Liberation Theology", but he IS trying to suggest a more effective way for the impulse toward freedom, manifested in at least some anarchism, to direct itself, a way that has at least some of the traits that would inher in more fully realized Liberation Theology.

patrice

(47,992 posts)
7. Why do you find it necessary to be so insulting? You could have asked that question in a much
Sat Apr 28, 2012, 07:14 PM
Apr 2012

less superior tone.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
9. This is all new to me and it's pretty dense stuff
Sat Apr 28, 2012, 07:18 PM
Apr 2012

Anarchists in general make me uncomfortable.

FWIW, I had never heard this as a description of liberation theology.

I'm not sure what to think.

patrice

(47,992 posts)
10. It's my reaction to running into both/all of these perspectives within the Occupy.
Sat Apr 28, 2012, 07:26 PM
Apr 2012

Everyone gets a buzzzzzzzzzz on over freedom, but the particular differences in their positions are avoided in the name of solidarity.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
11. Oh, ok. So it's coming out of OWS?
Sat Apr 28, 2012, 07:32 PM
Apr 2012

It is really difficult to get a read on what is happening within the various factions of OWS, imo. Your explanation helps me understand why that may so.

patrice

(47,992 posts)
18. To be fully honest, I should mention that I have also run across anarcho-expressions about
Sat Apr 28, 2012, 08:42 PM
Apr 2012

evil government amongst certain young professionals I know in health care, the worst, and most recent, incidentally, not involved in direct care fortunately.

patrice

(47,992 posts)
22. Not in too much detail, since this is a public board. Just an HR type who expressed clear bigotry
Sat Apr 28, 2012, 09:20 PM
Apr 2012

against the anti-war movement and not just bigotry but very clear ignorance about the variety in peace people too. I had known her to be negative about government, which is very common around here, but I was very surprised at the presence of that sort of attitude in a human relations "professional" (not that everyone has to be perfect, just a little self-awareness isn't too much to expect in that field is it and since we aren't close friends I expected her to be more conscious of how she is perceived, especially in public.)

... makes me wonder if there isn't something to this stuff about diploma mills and how all of that is going to affect America's elders.

 

Warren Stupidity

(48,181 posts)
17. As an anarchist youth of the 60s, I can only dream that today's anarchists
Sat Apr 28, 2012, 08:31 PM
Apr 2012

will do better than we did. I do not fear that part of our future at all.

patrice

(47,992 posts)
19. The author mentions the '60s. Perhaps you can tell me why/how anarchists
Sat Apr 28, 2012, 08:50 PM
Apr 2012

don't appear to think that emergent properties of systems that are not properly controlled CAN, and most likely WILL, enslave us, thus further mitigating AGAINST the freedom that, as I understand it, motivates anarchism.

I imagine the answer to that question has something to do with progressive cycles, but each of the turnings would likely be accompanied not only by pain and suffering, but also LOSS, material and psychological, which losses mitigate against whatever anarchism ultimately results in. I suppose we could say that loss is inevitable, but if freedom is the purpose, loss that is not CHOSEN, loss that is imposed by others, no matter how well intentioned, still mitigates AGAINST fully realized freedom.

 

Warren Stupidity

(48,181 posts)
23. Individualist anarchists have no answers to your questions.
Sun Apr 29, 2012, 08:43 AM
Apr 2012

They are today's 'libertarians' and the end result of their proposals is likely the post-industrial global feudalism we can see developing around us.

The other branch of anarchism, the socialist branch, does not eschew collective organizations of governance, it simply insists that they be strictly democratic and in fact demands that such organizations be pervasive, governing all of society on democratic participatory principals.

patrice

(47,992 posts)
21. From my perspective anarchism is more about destruction for destruction's sake. If it were really
Sat Apr 28, 2012, 09:07 PM
Apr 2012

about the value of freedom, it would admit that chaos does not yield only freedom; it also yields slavery and any freedom that depends upon slaves remaining slaves is not freedom at all. Yes, slaves DO eventually rise up, but what's lost to chaos each time is not nothing.

It seems real respect for freedom and authentic personal development would also recognize the necessity of ontologically appropriate, teleologically adaptive control. Perhaps that's my bias as a teacher.

*Sorry about those words. They're just so much shorter than saying controls that are appropriate to the being that each (or as many as possible) person is becoming & controls that continuously adapt in ongoing ways that increase the likelihood of certain outcomes, in this case freedom and full personal development for all.

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