The Millennials God

[rug]

By Nicolette Manglos-Weber
January 18th 2017

The Millennial Generation—consisting of those individuals born between 1980 and 2000—is an oddity when it comes to religion. On the one hand, its members are leaving organized religion in unprecedented numbers. On the other hand, they are not exactly unbelievers.

According to a survey conducted in 2014 by the Pew Research Center, the modal 18-29-year-old identifies as “nothing in particular”: not part of a distinct religious group, but not atheist or agnostic either. Most believe in God with some certainty. Yet it is unclear from this survey just what kind of God they mean, and how they ‘experience’ that God in which they believe.

This puzzle relates to two larger narratives often told about the Millennial Generation. The first narrative claims that because of their many privileges, Millennials are self-focused, immature, and afraid to make strong commitments. An alternate narrative posits that due to growing economic uncertainty and inequality, Millennials are self-reflective, spiritually attune, and unwilling to compromise on core values of self-fulfillment.

The exodus from organized religion generally fits the first narrative: Millennials are the ultimate spiritual individualists who avoid faith commitments. They are the Marlboro men and women of American spirituality. The persistent belief in God fits the second narrative: Millennials are insatiable soul searchers, intrigued by the unseen and unscientific. They like to ask the big questions while rejecting easy answers.

http://blog.oup.com/2017/01/the-millennials-god-religion/



https://academic.oup.com/socrel/article/77/2/193/2223745/Relationships-with-God-among-Young-Adults?searchresult=1

[guillaumeb]

1. But I though that religious belief is dying out?

At least that is the impression given by reading some of the posts here.

[tonedevil]

2. The article...

seems to indicate religious belief is dying out, but not necessarily a belief in God. Mind you that God can be a personal being involved in the lives of people today, or someone who created the world but is no longer involved in it, or something like a cosmic life force.

[guillaumeb]

3. Belief in a God

is the basis of religion. What form that belief takes, how believers are organized, or not, around that belief is another issue.

[tonedevil]

4. Belief in God...

doesn't require religion. People who are spiritual but not religious seem to show that to be true.

[guillaumeb]

5. No, belief does not require any formalized system.

But if these millennials reject what they currently see, they might be open to alternatives to the traditional experience of religion.

[AtheistCrusader]

9. That would be wonderful.

I can't wait till all these religions go extinct, and everyone has a personal relationship, or not, as they choose, on their own terms with whatever they feel god might be.

Most of what is wrong with religion is tied up in telling people God is X, wants you to do Y, and doesn't want you to do Z.

[guillaumeb]

11. That might be a very long wait.

It might even feel like an eternity.

[AtheistCrusader]

13. The pace has increased.

It's not logarithmic yet, but hope springs eternal.

[guillaumeb]

15. Hope does persist.

As does the belief in an other, however that other is defined. Belief in an afterlife and in a deity, or deities, seems to be a constant in the history of homo sapiens.

[AtheistCrusader]

16. Not universally so, but a significant percentage, sure.

Likely conferred some evolutionary benefit. Fortunately, we're still evolving.

[guillaumeb]

22. The evolutionary benefit of linking members of a group,

and to a certain degree also reinforcing and emphasizing hierarchy.

[tonedevil]

18. Belief in...

a deity and belief in an afterlife are separate though not mutually exclusive concepts. Belief in a cosmic life force is yet another concept. Are you postulating something based on what you see as a constant in the history of homo sapiens?

[tonedevil]

10. They might...

or they might be more open to FSM, or not ever joining any religion and defining their belief for themselves. Regardless your opening salvo trying to make this article a refutation of the notion that the trend is toward less religion not more doesn't really stand up to scrutiny.

[guillaumeb]

14. Whether it is formalized religious belief or an informal version,

the religious belief is the common element.

[tonedevil]

17. The article...

talks of belief in God which is not of necessity a religious belief. Move the goalposts to wherever you want it doesn't make what you are saying relevant.

[guillaumeb]

21. To try to separate the concept of a deity from religion

is indeed moving the goalposts.

A definition of religion:

a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/religion

If you insist on calling a belief in a god a non-religious thing, perhaps you should consider how religion is generally defined. Note in the definition the word usually being employed. Religion can be a personal thing, a unique view, and it can also be a social thing involving other people and often that social thing involves group ritual.

[tonedevil]

23. Are you saying...

belief in God requires religion? What about if you define God as a cosmic life force? I'm not saying all belief in God is non-religious, but I am saying you can believe in God and not religion. You seem to be saying it is not possible.

[guillaumeb]

24. I am saying that religion generally concerns itself with a relationship

to a deity, or deities.

I am not saying that a belief in a deity must be a formalized belief, with associated rituals, but that it generally does take that form.

[tonedevil]

28. Generally does take that form...

maybe the case especially traditionally, but that is not what the article is describing. The story from the article is that young people are not identifying with any religious group, but they do believe in God. That said they are using a number of definitions of God the three mentioned are a personal being involved in the lives of people today, someone who created the world but is no longer involved in it, or something like a cosmic life force. To me this says that there is a trend to reject religion, but hold on to some spiritual belief. So yes just like you snidely put it in your first post to this thread religious belief is dying out.

[guillaumeb]

31. Your comment assumes too much.

It assumes that these current levels of non-affiliation will remain constant.

SO belief in a deity is not dying out. At least not among millennials. And belief in a deity is religious belief. It might not be a belief in organized religion, but it is a type of religious belief all the same.

[tonedevil]

32. Yeah...

I'm the one assuming too much. You are the one conflating religion with God. From my perspective you are so invested in your beliefs you twist like a pretzel to defend them.

[guillaumeb]

35. Source a definition of religion that does not reference a higher power or similar

wording. If you insist on your own personal definition of words that might win the argument, at least in your mind, but there is no point in debating when one person insists that words do not mean what they are defined as.

[tonedevil]

38. Even if all religions...

incorporate a higher power religion is not necessary for the existence of a higher power. Spiritual, but not religious is a thing for a lot of people.

[AtheistCrusader]

46. Buddhism.

There are 'gods/goddesses' and 'spirits' to some sects of Buddhist, but they are not in charge, nor are they worshipped. They are 'lost' as we are, and seek enlightenment.

[guillaumeb]

47. Agreed. I mentioned Buddhism in my post #42.

And I would argue that Buddhism is a philosophy and not a religion.

[AtheistCrusader]

48. No true scotsman fallacy.

Also, Jainism, Deism would qualify as non-deistic religions.

[guillaumeb]

50. No, simply the fact that religion is generally defined as a system that discusses the relationship

with a deity.

[AtheistCrusader]

54. I would not attempt to tell deists that they are wrong/not religious.

[guillaumeb]

57. Nor would I.

I would not presume to tell anyone that they are wrong when it comes to beliefs.

[AtheistCrusader]

58. But you'd tell them their religion isn't a religion?

[guillaumeb]

62. If someone wishes to define up as down I would point that out.

If religion is defined as being concerned with a relationship with a powerful, non-human other, attempts to redefine the word are exercises in semantics.

[Bretton Garcia]

6. Some religions focus on say, spirits, rather than gods

[guillaumeb]

8. Words can mean many different things.

So when some people talk about the Great Spirit............?

[tonedevil]

12. They might be...

talking about the Turtle who's back is what makes up the world as we know it.

[Angry Dragon]

19. religion is no more than a personal set of beliefs and requires not a belief in a god

[guillaumeb]

25. Religion is both a personal and a group thing.

And religious belief by definition requires a deity or deities.

[Angry Dragon]

39. and it is past time that that narrow definition is challenged

definitions change all the time
and who among you feel that you may challenge my religion??

[guillaumeb]

40. How would you define religion? eom

[Angry Dragon]

41. a religion is a set of beliefs that one tries to live their life by

a belief in a deity is not required

[guillaumeb]

42. That is also one of the definitions of philosophy.

And while people do live their lives by their philosophical beliefs without reference to a deity, I am thinking of Buddhism, when those beliefs include a deity that is termed religion.

And I am not saying that one is preferable to the other, simply that when speaking of religion, a deity or deities is generally understood to be part of a religion.

[Angry Dragon]

43. I just say it is time to broaden the definition

[guillaumeb]

44. Good luck. eom

[Angry Dragon]

45. thanks

[Bretton Garcia]

49. Gods? In Confucianism, Buddhism?

Normally Buddha is not regarded as a god. And he notes no other god above him.

[guillaumeb]

51. Agreed.

Buddhism has been mentioned here, by me and others. But religion is generally defined in relation to a deity.

[Bretton Garcia]

53. Anthropology notes many other things in religions

This article suggests that complex societies evolved without a Most High God:

http://www.nature.com/news/complex-societies-evolved-without-belief-in-all-powerful-deity-1.17040

[guillaumeb]

56. An interesting article.

All human societies have been shaped by religion, leading psychologists to wonder how it arose, and whether particular forms of belief have affected other aspects of evolved social structure. According to one recent view, for example, belief in a "big God" — an all-powerful, punitive deity who sits in moral judgement on our actions — has been instrumental in bringing about social and political complexity in human cultures.

This suggests that religion, no matter the form it takes, is a constant.

[Bretton Garcia]

60. Yes. But with the Big God gone, we're down to the smaller survivors now.

And other articles will question them in turn; individual spirits or ghosts, and related magical beliefs.

[guillaumeb]

63. Your title represents your...........

wishes, hopes, and personal conclusions perhaps, but given that humans seem to be wired for religious belief.........

[Bretton Garcia]

65. Which are just hopes and personal conclusions?

Regarding "hard wiring" for religion? Some here once suggested religion was just Inchoate primitive ignorance. Something inevitable, like childhood. But nothing to be retained.

It's not so much a cultural or biological universal, to be externally, sentimentality retained. As a low level of evolution, to be replaced by something better. By say, a rational, scientific ethics.

[guillaumeb]

66. Again, personal beliefs disguised as rationality?

And there is nothing wrong with belief. We all believe something. We all believe in something. Some believe in a Creator, some believe that science is a substitute. Some believe that answers can be found in faith and science.

[Bretton Garcia]

67. Personal belief ... based on Science?

[guillaumeb]

69. Let me repeat myself, at the risk of seeming rude:

And there is nothing wrong with belief. We all believe something. We all believe in something. Some believe in a Creator, some believe that science is a substitute. Some believe that answers can be found in faith and science.

With thanks to Paul Simon.

[Bretton Garcia]

71. I met Paul Simon. He dissed my girlfriend

AND he wasn't a scientist or a serious philosopher.

[rug]

73. Was her name Cecilia?

[Bretton Garcia]

74. Nah; rolly poly girl.

When she recognized him on MTV, she hit me so hard my arm was black and blue.

She worked as a grocer, and had some muscles. But? She had diamonds on the souls of her shoes.

Simon did the album in South Africa, with some Afro Pop black guitar players and choirs I liked. Caused some problems with the US embargo. Which though was aimed at white Africans, not black ones.

[guillaumeb]

75. I still like his music.

IS your girlfriend taller than Paul Simon?

No matter what else he is, he is a gifted lyricist and musician.

[muriel_volestrangler]

27. Belief in God is certainly lower in the 18-29 age group than others

http://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/belief-in-god/#demographic-information (look for 'Belief in God by Age Group' and click to expand it if necessary)

Absolutely certain: 18-29 51%, 30-49 62%, 50-64 69%, 65+ 70%

and similar trends for fairly or absolutely certain. Similarly, for 'importance of religion in one's life' http://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/importance-of-religion-in-ones-life/#demographic-information

Very important: 18-29 40%, 30-49 51%, 50-64 59%, 65+ 65%

[guillaumeb]

29. One wonders how these numbers might change with age.

The need for religion seems to be a constant in human societies. I have no idea if this reflects a hard-wiring of the human brain for religion. Due to a language barrier, we cannot ask the other big brained mammals. Nor can we do anything but speculate about other sentient species that might exist.

[muriel_volestrangler]

34. Pew doesn't make it easy to see, but we can work out changes from 2007 to 2014

They give some figures for both polls.

http://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/belief-in-god/

For all age groups, in 2007 absolutely certain belief in God 71% (absolutely of fairly 88%); in 2014 64% and 83% respectively. But I can't find a comparison for particular groups like 18-29.

For the "atheist", "nothing in particular, religion important/not important" etc. categories, we have the detailed tables: http://assets.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/11/2015/05/Appendix-D-Detailed-Tables.pdf

Put those numbers into a spreadsheet, and we find the 18-29 age group consists of, in each year:
overall unaffiliated 2007 22%; 2014 34%
Atheist 3%; 6%
Agnostic 4%; 7%
Nothing particular relig not important 8%; 13%
Nothing particular relig important 7%; 8%

So we see that the growth is almost entirely in the non-believing categories (Muslim grew from 0.5% to 1.4%; "other Christian" from 2.9% to 3.1%; "Unitarian and other liberal faiths" from 0.7% to 1.5%, and everything else shrank; though I'm not sure giving these figures to that accuracy is justified). The 2014 18-29 generation is less religious than the 2007 one.

[guillaumeb]

36. Responding to your last paragraph:

I would say that, at most, one might conclude that:

the 2014 18-24 generation is less formally religious than the 2007 one.

But again, people do evolve with age, and that evolution could entail a return to more traditional forms of belief.

[muriel_volestrangler]

37. The categories for which religion is unimportant went from 15% to 26%

A 1% increase in "nothing in particular, but feel religion is important" was not enough to make up for the 12% drop in affiliation with a specific religion. They were less religious, and also less formally religious.

You are correct that the poll does not have the ability to foresee the future. The trend could indeed reverse.

[Bretton Garcia]

61. Many will evolve into atheism

[guillaumeb]

64. Your hope?

You have a right to your hopes and beliefs.

[Bretton Garcia]

68. No. Evolutionary Anthropology

Modern iteration. Probably. Or some other social science ideas.

Better than raw Pollyanna hope.

[guillaumeb]

70. Both are based on hope.

One disguised as rationality, but it is still a hope, or a belief, that science will eventually have all the answers.

[Bretton Garcia]

72. No. Reason, probability, material evidence, for science.

Faith in contrast, by dictionary definition, is belief in things for which there is no evidence.

[guillaumeb]

76. Agreed on the definition of hope.

Lack of proof is the reason that faith is needed.

[Bretton Garcia]

7. Typical problems with Pew data here.

Some nones avowed a "personal" god. But does that mean 1) they take God, capital G, in a very personal way? Or they 2) take God in an individual way. Or....?

Here as usual, Pew data stinks. And its interpretation.

[rug]

20. By any measure, it is describing theists, not atheists.

Which is all the first reply says.

[Bretton Garcia]

33. Someone could take or understand God in a way...

... that includes the opinion he doesn't exist.

[tecelote]

26. Whether they believe in God or not...

They reject organized religion. Healthy, in my opinion.

Independent thinkers.

[guillaumeb]

30. But will that level of rejection remain stable as millenials age? eom

[Bretton Garcia]

52. Catholic priests loved to declare deathbed conversions....

Of reprobates. Probably for the sake of the families.

Whether that was just a last minute fiction, topspin, or some following Pascal's Wager, in every case the sincerity or honesty might be doubted.

[guillaumeb]

55. They received a bonus for each deathbed conversion.

Double points for atheists.

[hrmjustin]

59. The millennials in my family don't believe in religion but are not atheists.

But that is similar to the rest of my family.

I just missed being a millennial but I personally believe but have my doubts.