Einsteins faith and ours

[guillaumeb]

From the very interesting article:

NASHVILLE, Tenn. (RNS) Kurt Vonnegut believed that Albert Einstein’s general theory of relativity, as an intellectual contribution for the benefit of humanity, could be compellingly paired with another compact formula as radical and revolutionary as any scientific discovery.
Also the product of Jewish thought, it comes from the peasant-artisan Jesus of Nazareth, and it goes like this: “Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.”

True enough. And were the history of religion the sad tale of countless souls submitting sadly to the reigning dogmas of their times and places, the question would be settled. Einstein was in no way religious. He was, in fact, religion’s opposite. But what if his own witness is a model for thinking these matters through more carefully?

Einstein’s faith seems to have borne a deep resemblance to that of one of his heroes, Baruch Spinoza, the 17th-century Jewish philosopher and lens-grinder who was famously unwilling to credit a definitive distinction between God and nature. When it comes to seemingly ultimate questions that won’t submit to proofs, both men viewed relentless humility as the only posture befitting good faith. Einstein was known to accept, from those who chose to affix it, the label of agnostic, but he bristled at the thought of being pushy about it: “I prefer an attitude of humility corresponding to the weakness of our intellectual understanding of nature and of our own being.”

An attitude of humility, as Einstein stated, recognizes that humans do not have the intellectual capacity to recognize everything..............even if the human in question has an IQ above 120 or so.

To read more:
http://religionnews.com/2017/04/24/einsteins-faith-and-ours/

[trotsky]

1. Ah, Einstein.

"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."

Apparently Einstein thought he had the intellectual capacity to reject your god, g-man.

[guillaumeb]

3. And Einstein had the intellectual capacity to say this:

“I prefer an attitude of humility corresponding to the weakness of our intellectual understanding of nature and of our own being.”

To label Einstein as either atheist or believer fails to recognize the nuance of his position. So no, as much as it might serve your argument, or your particular belief, Einstein did not think he had such capacity. The key word is humility in the above quote. Humility based on the weakness of human intellectual understanding.

[trotsky]

5. I didn't label him anything.

I quoted him, just like you did.

My quote shows that he rejects the personal god that you believe in. Sorry if that upsets you, but it's no reason to accuse me of doing something I didn't.

[guillaumeb]

6. Again, you are "finding" something in his statements that is not actually there.

He neither rejected nor embraced any deity. He recognized that his intellect might not be sufficient to be able to make such a determination. Any mischaracterization of his position, deliberate or inadvertent, does not upset me.

[trotsky]

9. Yeah, I'm "finding" what he said.

I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly.

You're the one trying to manipulate his statements (and mine). Please continue digging your hole if you wish.

[guillaumeb]

10. And both statements, taken together,

support the idea that Einstein never rejected the idea of a deity, he simply rejected the idea of a personal relationship with a deity.

[trotsky]

12. Yet he rejected YOUR GOD.

Which is exactly what I said. Dang, this really stings you, doesn't it? LOL

[guillaumeb]

17. Define what I consider to be "my God" before declaring your huge victory.

Given that I never have defined my beliefs, this could be interesting.

[trotsky]

19. LMAO!!!!

That's not how any of this works, though I certainly understand how desperately you wish it did.

[guillaumeb]

20. You do get points for consistency.

[trotsky]

21. Yes, consistently opposing your agenda. n/t

[AtheistCrusader]

2. This is little better than mormons posthumously baptizing non-mormons without consent.

Try a different tack.

[guillaumeb]

4. Explain this quote from Einstein:

“I prefer an attitude of humility corresponding to the weakness of our intellectual understanding of nature and of our own being.”

[AtheistCrusader]

7. Plain english meaning.

I don't suppose you presume 'humility' is the sole domain of Religion?

[guillaumeb]

8. Still waiting for your interpretation of what Einstein meant.

Fell free to elaborate.

[trotsky]

11. How much "humility" is involved...

when one believes in a personal creator god who wants a relationship with you?

[guillaumeb]

14. I have no idea.

And I am still waiting for that interpretation.

[trotsky]

15. Are you saying you're not a Christian anymore? n/t

[guillaumeb]

18. Waiting for AC's interpretation. eom

[Act_of_Reparation]

13. Beware the perils of quote mining.

Here's the whole thing:

I have repeatedly said that in my opinion the idea of a personal God is a childlike one, but I do not share the crusading spirit of the professional atheist whose fervor is mostly due to a painful act of liberation from the fetters of religious indoctrination received in youth. I prefer an attitude of humility corresponding to the weakness of our intellectual understanding of nature and of our own being.

Einstein does not believe in your personal God. He goes further, calling your concept of a personal God "childlike". Further still, he lays the blame for the "crusading atheists" you hate so much squarely at the feet of your fellow theists, who in their youth tried to rob them of their conscience and intellect.

Einstein isn't disagreeing with atheists in principal, and he sure as hell isn't giving the argument for a personal God even the slightest fraction of an ounce of credibility. He's talking about demeanor. About how one, a scientist in particular, should present themselves as a dispassionate observer and shy away from making declarative statements.

[guillaumeb]

16. My idea of a deity is not in play here.

If anything, Einstein is making the argument that, while he does not believe in a personal deity, he is humble enough to recognize the limitations of his human intellect.

Einstein also talks of the fervor of the crusading professional atheist. So Einstein is not agreeing or disagreeing with theistic or atheistic belief. He recognizes that he cannot make any determination.

[AtheistCrusader]

23. He is literally taking the agnostic path.

That's fine. I'm an agnostic atheist too.

[Act_of_Reparation]

24. It's always in play. Your agenda demands it.

If anything, Einstein is making the argument that, while he does not believe in a personal deity, he is humble enough to recognize the limitations of his human intellect.

No. You're just trying to find a gap you can shove your god into. He's saying our intellect is limited, so scientists should, as a professional habit, avoid making declarative statements. He is not saying our intellect is so limited as that the existence of a personal God seems every bit as likely as its non-existence.

Einstein also talks of the fervor of the crusading professional atheist. So Einstein is not agreeing or disagreeing with theistic or atheistic belief. He recognizes that he cannot make any determination.

Again, no. He takes a clear position on the existence of god. He does not believe. He has made a determination. But he recognizes that he is Albert fucking Einstein, renowned physicist, and that anything he says publicly will be taken in context of his profession. Any scientist accustomed to speaking with the general public is aware of this and uses appropriate caution as so personal opinion is not confused with professional output.

[guillaumeb]

25. Ah yes, my not so hidden agenda.

I was hoping that none of you would see through my arguments, but you have revealed my agenda.

[Act_of_Reparation]

26. Action succeeds motivation.

Everyone who posts here does so for a reason.

[AtheistCrusader]

22. "We have to admire in humility the beautiful harmony of the structure of this worldas far as we can

grasp it"

Weakness and understanding is relative. In his time, he couldn't square the beginnings of quantum theory with the observable world. Today it can be measured and demonstrated to a great degree.

Always good to be cautious about what we speculate we don't know, and what we don't know we don't know.

[Fix The Stupid]

34. Ok...

“I prefer an attitude of humility corresponding to the weakness of our intellectual understanding of nature and of our own being.”

Or in other words, treat the believers like you would a 4 yr. old waiting for the easter bunny on sunday morning.

[guillaumeb]

35. Ok indeed.

You have explained your personal view, but that is not what I asked for.

[edhopper]

27. The Universe is so great and complex

we should not overestimate our ability to scientifically understand it.

No God, or whether one exists needed. No God needed to pursue that understanding.

Seems Einstein was pretty straight forward.

[guillaumeb]

28. No deity is needed.

But if one is needed............

[edhopper]

29. Nothing in the Universe

reguires a diety to explain it.

Einstein understood that.

If you come up with anything that does, let us know.

[trotsky]

30. Is one needed?

What would be the observations that indicate so?

[guillaumeb]

32. I feel it would be a personal need.

And as such, the observations and conclusions vary.

[trotsky]

33. So if it's a personal need to have a creator,

all that can be said is that a believer imagines a creator who exists only within the mind of that believer, according to their individual needs.

I'm perfectly OK with that.

[Bretton Garcia]

31. Science is humble; always open to revision

When data warrants.

So you don't have to be religious to be humble.

In fact, in many ways religion is far less humble than science. Religion often asserts that it is the unchangeable voice of God. And it is slow about seeing any problem in its views. Even when data warrants, and even demands, revisions.