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guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
Fri Jul 28, 2017, 04:59 PM Jul 2017

Bad news:Richard Dawkins, shunned in Berkeley, finds new venue nearby

From the article:

Richard Dawkins, the famed evolutionary biologist and ardent critic of religion, found a new San Francisco-area venue to host his current book tour after his planned Berkeley appearance was abruptly canceled.


To read more bad news:

http://religionnews.com/2017/07/27/richard-dawkins-shunned-by-berkeley-finds-new-venue-nearby/

Yes, Dawkins is ignorant, and loudly opinionated, and fond of his own celebrity, but to cancel the event is censorship. Freedom of speech is also the freedom to speak disagreeably.
34 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Bad news:Richard Dawkins, shunned in Berkeley, finds new venue nearby (Original Post) guillaumeb Jul 2017 OP
LMAO trotsky Jul 2017 #1
Wait a minute. Are we agreeing that this is bad news? guillaumeb Jul 2017 #3
Well edhopper Jul 2017 #23
Why do you say Dawkins is ignorant? You just put it out there like it is accepted wisdom. RelativelyJones Jul 2017 #2
Allow me to explain: guillaumeb Jul 2017 #4
Yes, I got that. And your editorializing about Dawkins ignorance is put out there RelativelyJones Jul 2017 #6
I was expressing an opinion. Just like you just did. guillaumeb Jul 2017 #7
Who said anything about denying you a right to an opinion? RelativelyJones Jul 2017 #8
I am glad we cleared that up. guillaumeb Jul 2017 #10
Why do you assume that disagreement equals denying your right to an opinion? RelativelyJones Jul 2017 #13
I do not. But your first question was a "why" question. guillaumeb Jul 2017 #17
No, you didn't explain why. You've just said it's your opinion. muriel_volestrangler Jul 2017 #21
And opinions can be based on many things. guillaumeb Jul 2017 #22
I am a big fan of Dawkins. SamKnause Jul 2017 #5
And this also is your personal opinion. guillaumeb Jul 2017 #9
Reading the posts, it seems you do want to argue. SamKnause Jul 2017 #11
Well, you did ask a question about the post that the format should have answered. guillaumeb Jul 2017 #12
Exactly where did I ask a question ??? SamKnause Jul 2017 #14
It was an error on my part. My apologies, and you do the same. guillaumeb Jul 2017 #18
I, too, love watching Dawkins jiminvegas Jul 2017 #15
Welcome to DU. guillaumeb Jul 2017 #19
I disagree that this is censorship. Jim__ Jul 2017 #16
An interesting response. guillaumeb Jul 2017 #20
KPFA are banning him because they don't Doodley Jul 2017 #26
Your assertions are just wrong. Jim__ Jul 2017 #33
KPFA Uses the public airwaves for which they are licensed bitterross Jul 2017 #28
Your feelings are not the determining factor here. Jim__ Jul 2017 #34
The world could do with more Richard Dawkins and fewer Popes. Cuthbert Allgood Jul 2017 #24
Welcome to DU. guillaumeb Jul 2017 #25
Thank you. Cuthbert Allgood Jul 2017 #30
I dare say your opinion is quite mistaken bitterross Jul 2017 #27
A person can be well qualified in a particular field, as Dawkins is, guillaumeb Jul 2017 #31
Since when is a science lecture considered "bad news"? And about what is he ignorant? beam me up scottie Jul 2017 #29
The "bad news" in the title referred to not allowing him to speak. eom guillaumeb Jul 2017 #32

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
1. LMAO
Fri Jul 28, 2017, 05:22 PM
Jul 2017

Richard Dawkins, allegedly the worst atheist in the world, writes books and says mean things about religion. He's never hurt anyone, never taken away anyone's rights, never done a single freaking thing anywhere near what the world's worst theists have done, yet many portray him as "the other side of the coin" for religious extremists.

Again, LMAO.

Good news: Richard Dawkins is still making bigoted theists tremble and condemn him.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
4. Allow me to explain:
Fri Jul 28, 2017, 05:25 PM
Jul 2017

1)The shadowed portion of the post is an excerpt.

2) It is followed by a link to the original article.

3) The part after the link is my own editorializing.

So................

Hope this helps you.

RelativelyJones

(898 posts)
6. Yes, I got that. And your editorializing about Dawkins ignorance is put out there
Fri Jul 28, 2017, 05:28 PM
Jul 2017

without any evidence. I guess these pearls are just a gift to us mortals.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
7. I was expressing an opinion. Just like you just did.
Fri Jul 28, 2017, 05:31 PM
Jul 2017

So why the confusion? Would you deny me the right to my opinion?

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
10. I am glad we cleared that up.
Fri Jul 28, 2017, 05:34 PM
Jul 2017

We both expressed an opinion. My original opinion was expressed as an editorial comment at the end of my post.

Perhaps I should title all of my comments as "in my opinion", but that could get awkward.

RelativelyJones

(898 posts)
13. Why do you assume that disagreement equals denying your right to an opinion?
Fri Jul 28, 2017, 05:40 PM
Jul 2017

That is quite a leap to make. An opinion without evidence is basically just a preference. You don't like Dawkins? He gets on your nerves? Fair enough. But without an argument you aren't going to convince anyone.

muriel_volestrangler

(101,316 posts)
21. No, you didn't explain why. You've just said it's your opinion.
Sat Jul 29, 2017, 09:33 AM
Jul 2017

When someone asks "why do you say ...", they're asking why you hold that opinion. As far as we can tell, you have no reason or evidence to hold it. All you've shown yourself capable of telling us is that it is your opinion.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
22. And opinions can be based on many things.
Sat Jul 29, 2017, 05:43 PM
Jul 2017

And belief can also be based on many things.

So yes, my opinion of Dawkins is based on his personality and his unprovable beliefs.

SamKnause

(13,106 posts)
14. Exactly where did I ask a question ???
Fri Jul 28, 2017, 05:42 PM
Jul 2017

You must have confused my post with another one.

I simply made a statement that I like Dawkins.

I like watching his debates, documentaries, and lectures on YouTube.

There was no question involved.

I will chalk it up to an innocent mistake on your part.

Have a great Friday night and a great weekend.

jiminvegas

(104 posts)
15. I, too, love watching Dawkins
Fri Jul 28, 2017, 05:58 PM
Jul 2017

debates, documentaries, and lectures on YouTube.

And I love to read his books.

Those are not personal opinions, those are facts.

And I believe Richard Dawkins is extremely intelligent and knowledgeable. Those are personal opinions based upon lots of evidence.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
19. Welcome to DU.
Fri Jul 28, 2017, 08:41 PM
Jul 2017

You might love to read his books, etc. That is a personal preference of yours. So in a sense it is a fact, but it does not make any or all of what Dawkins says a fact.

I believe that he is intelligent and in his particular field of evolutionary biology he is undoubtedly qualified, but when he opines about faith and religion he is no more credible than you or me.

Jim__

(14,076 posts)
16. I disagree that this is censorship.
Fri Jul 28, 2017, 07:47 PM
Jul 2017

KPFA is not under any obligation to provide a platform for Dawkins.

KPFA's statement on the matter:

KPFA cancelled a book event with Richard Dawkins when members of our community brought our attention to Dawkins’ abusive speech against Muslims. The speech we reviewed included assertions during his current book tour that Islam is the “most evil” of world religions, Twitter posts denigrating Muslim scholars as non-scholars and other tweets.

We serve a broad and diverse community, including many Muslims living under threat of persecution and violence in the current political context. Islamophobic rhetoric stokes that threat. While Mr. Dawkins has every right to express his views, KPFA has every right not to sponsor and profit from an event spreading them. That is what we’ve done.

KPFA’s events organizers notified Mr. Dawkins’ publicist at Random House when we first started considering cancellation of his event, and again once we made the final decision to do so, which was before notice was sent out to ticket holders.

We have since extended an offer to Mr. Dawkins to discuss this matter on KPFA’s airwaves, a forum where his assertions can be engaged and challenged, but KPFA will have no financial stake in promoting them. He has not yet responded.

There is an audio (about 4 and a half minutes) news story at the link.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
20. An interesting response.
Fri Jul 28, 2017, 08:43 PM
Jul 2017

My personal opinion of Dawkin's behavior aside, I am a firm believer in free speech, but as you note, KPFA is under no obligation to provide a platform.

Doodley

(9,091 posts)
26. KPFA are banning him because they don't
Sun Jul 30, 2017, 05:35 PM
Jul 2017

tolerate criticism of Islam (not Muslims, but Islam). That is censorship.

Jim__

(14,076 posts)
33. Your assertions are just wrong.
Mon Jul 31, 2017, 08:31 PM
Jul 2017

Dawkins is not being banned from KPFA - from post #16:

We have since extended an offer to Mr. Dawkins to discuss this matter on KPFA’s airwaves, a forum where his assertions can be engaged and challenged, but KPFA will have no financial stake in promoting them. He has not yet responded.


And, if he chooses to discuss the matter on KPFA’s airwaves, he will be free to criticize Islam.
 

bitterross

(4,066 posts)
28. KPFA Uses the public airwaves for which they are licensed
Sun Jul 30, 2017, 06:01 PM
Jul 2017

As long as they are using my public airwaves I feel they have an obligation to air all views. No matter how disagreeable they find them. The Supreme Court has weighed in that free speech ends at the incitement of violence. I am quite certain Dawkins does not incite violence.

And yes, I would say the same thing about Ann Coulter or Milo what's-his-name and Alex Jones. I vehemently disagree with all of those people but I will not silence them. I will simply change the channel as is my right.

It is the height of political correctness to cancel a speaker because one doesn't like their tweets and book.

Jim__

(14,076 posts)
34. Your feelings are not the determining factor here.
Mon Jul 31, 2017, 08:33 PM
Jul 2017

Simple fact: KPFA does not have any obligation to air Dawkins’ views.

Second simple fact: they are not refusing to air Dawkins views, they are just choosing the setting in which to air them.

Cuthbert Allgood

(4,921 posts)
24. The world could do with more Richard Dawkins and fewer Popes.
Sun Jul 30, 2017, 11:36 AM
Jul 2017

That said, I also don't think it's censorship. There is no government actor involved here.

 

bitterross

(4,066 posts)
27. I dare say your opinion is quite mistaken
Sun Jul 30, 2017, 05:47 PM
Jul 2017

The definition of "ignorant" according to Webster's is:

Definition of ignorant
1 a : destitute of knowledge or education an ignorant society; also : lacking knowledge or comprehension of the thing specified parents ignorant of modern mathematics
b : resulting from or showing lack of knowledge or intelligence ignorant errors

2: unaware, uninformed

see: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ignorant

To call such a learned person ignorant certainly exposes a peevish bias against them. Apparently, simply because you disagree with the man you've resorted to ad hominem attacks.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
31. A person can be well qualified in a particular field, as Dawkins is,
Mon Jul 31, 2017, 03:16 PM
Jul 2017

but when he expounds on an unrelated field his opinion is uninformed. Thus my choice of the word.

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
29. Since when is a science lecture considered "bad news"? And about what is he ignorant?
Sun Jul 30, 2017, 06:26 PM
Jul 2017

Disliking Dawkins' opinions regarding religion isn't proof of ignorance, he seems to be much more knowledgeable about the subject than many of his critics. Those same critics have tried to discredit him for years by claiming that he shouldn't discuss religion because he's not an 'expert' on theology.

There's actually a term that was coined in response to these attacks:

The Courtier's Reply is a term popularized by biologist/blogger PZ Myers to describe an informal logical fallacy that boils down to: "But you haven't read enough on it!"

His answer to the fallacy is to say that telling a non-believer that he should study theology before he can properly discuss whether a god exists is like telling the child in the fable to study haute couture before he can properly discuss whether the Emperor is naked.

Essentially, it's a particularly ham-handed argument from authority where the position's proponent attempts to bury the opponent under a pile of detail which is largely irrelevant to the opponent's argument.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Courtier's_Reply


Here's the original essay:

There’s a common refrain in the criticisms of Dawkins’ The God Delusion that I’ve taken to categorizing with my own private title—it’s so common, to the point of near-unanimous universality, that I’ve decided to share it with you all, along with a little backstory that will help you to understand the name.

I call it the Courtier’s Reply. It refers to the aftermath of a fable.

I have considered the impudent accusations of Mr Dawkins with exasperation at his lack of serious scholarship. He has apparently not read the detailed discourses of Count Roderigo of Seville on the exquisite and exotic leathers of the Emperor’s boots, nor does he give a moment’s consideration to Bellini’s masterwork, On the Luminescence of the Emperor’s Feathered Hat. We have entire schools dedicated to writing learned treatises on the beauty of the Emperor’s raiment, and every major newspaper runs a section dedicated to imperial fashion; Dawkins cavalierly dismisses them all. He even laughs at the highly popular and most persuasive arguments of his fellow countryman, Lord D. T. Mawkscribbler, who famously pointed out that the Emperor would not wear common cotton, nor uncomfortable polyester, but must, I say must, wear undergarments of the finest silk.

Dawkins arrogantly ignores all these deep philosophical ponderings to crudely accuse the Emperor of nudity.

Personally, I suspect that perhaps the Emperor might not be fully clothed — how else to explain the apparent sloth of the staff at the palace laundry — but, well, everyone else does seem to go on about his clothes, and this Dawkins fellow is such a rude upstart who lacks the wit of my elegant circumlocutions, that, while unable to deal with the substance of his accusations, I should at least chide him for his very bad form.

Until Dawkins has trained in the shops of Paris and Milan, until he has learned to tell the difference between a ruffled flounce and a puffy pantaloon, we should all pretend he has not spoken out against the Emperor’s taste. His training in biology may give him the ability to recognize dangling genitalia when he sees it, but it has not taught him the proper appreciation of Imaginary Fabrics.


http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2006/12/24/the-courtiers-reply/


I see no evidence that Dawkins is "ignorant" about religion, in fact he seems to have studied it at length. I think his criticism irritates religious apologists so they resort to using ad hominems because they can't refute what he says. Fortunately their attempts to discredit him have failed.

And "bad news"? What's that about?

What an odd way to describe a science lecture, in my opinion this can only considered 'bad news' if one is anti-science.
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