Back when I was a young guy, I was still trying to figure out

[MineralMan]

whether I could believe in deities or not, and whether Christianity made sense to me. During that process, I talked to a lot of people, including pastors from several denominations of Christianity. I asked questions about particular passages in the Bible that interested me but were puzzling. Often, the pastor I was talking to explained that the English translation was causing my problems. Then, they'd start telling me what some Greek word meant that had been translated in the passage, and how that explained my misunderstanding.

I found it interesting that these people had learned Greek to better understand the English translations they were discussing. But then, I realized that it was very likely that they did not actually know the Greek language and were just repeating something they had read about that passage in the Bible. So, I created a little test.

I had a man who had immigrated from Greece translate a simple story from English into Greek. Then, I'd ask any pastor who tried this Greek explanation on me if he understood Greek. "Yes," they'd say, "I studied it at the seminary." Then, I'd hand them a piece of paper that had this written on it and ask them to translate it for me:

Έ?? ??ό?? ??? έ?? ????ί ???????ύ??? ?έ?? ?? έ?? ?ά???. ??? ?? ?ύ? ?ί??? έ??? ??ί????. ??? ???έ???? ??έ??????? ??? ??ί??.

Here's the same thing in English:

A boy and a dog walked in a forest. They both saw a squirrel. Then they returned home.

It's a very simple passage that uses common words. Not a single pastor I tried this on even got close.

I found that interesting. I learned from it. It also occurred to me that if the translation from the Greek was poor enough to require an explanation, then I couldn't really trust the English translation very much at all.

[yallerdawg]

1. Faith - firm belief in something for which there is no proof.

MM, just take their word for it!

They BELIEVE they learned Greek!

[MineralMan]

4. Yah, that was always at the core of my problem with religion.

One of my favorite lines from every funeral I have attended at a church is this,

"In sure and certain hope of the resurrection to eternal life through our Lord Jesus Christ, we commend to Almighty God our brother/sister N., and we commit his/her body to the ground; earth to earth, ashes to ashes, dust to dust."

"Sure and certain" and "hope" have always seemed contradictory to me, somehow. Why would one need to "hope" for something that was "sure and certain?"

Language is interesting. Maybe there's a Greek word for "hope" that means something else. I just don't know.

[muriel_volestrangler]

20. That quote is from the Anglican Book of Common Prayer, and isn't a direct lifting from the Bible

It's in the earliest 1549 version: http://justus.anglican.org/resources/bcp/1549/Burial_1549.htm

A Catholic may be able to say if there's an equivalent in that denomination - there isn't a particularly similar phrase here: http://www.usccb.org/prayer-and-worship/bereavement-and-funerals/prayers-for-death-and-dying.cfm

So this may just be down to how 16th century English churchmen wanted to phrase it. Lots here if you want to look for more: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Common_Prayer

[MineralMan]

24. Thank you. That is interesting information.

I don't believe I said it was from the Bible, though. I rarely go to Catholic funerals for some reason. I don't know that many Catholics well, and there aren't any in my extended family.

Many protestant denominations have borrowed stuff from the Anglican Book of Common Prayer, it seems, since that phrase has been used at most funerals I've attended. Lutheran ones mostly, these days, since we live near my wife's family.

I've just always found the wording odd. I did ask a Lutheran minister about it once, and she said that it was based on a different understanding of the word, "hope," which she said can also mean "assurance." Again, odd, in my mind. But, that was her interpretation and understanding, so there it is.

[saidsimplesimon]

2. Beware of Greeks

bearing gifts? Thanks as always MM, you are amazing.

[Angry Dragon]

3. I see you took the plunge

[MineralMan]

5. Well, yes. That was over 50 years ago...

I haven't seen any reason to rethink it, either.

[Angry Dragon]

8. I was talking about the conversation a few days ago

[MineralMan]

13. Ah, yes. OK. Well, I'm dipping my toe, at least.

Odds are, though, that I'll end up being driven off before long. We'll see...

[Warpy]

6. I went to school with a lot of Greek kids

They all had after school Greek classes a couple of times a week. I used to practice their lessons with them, eventually learned just enough that I never had to look up spelling when I went into nursing school years later.

I did learn there was an enormous difference between modern and classical Greek, think of Middle English versus the Queen's English and add 1000+ years of added difference. People who study classical Greek are going to have a bit of trouble with your story. If they get anywhere in the ball park, they're doing fine.

They do need to remember that the Greek was itself a bad translation of Aramaic. It's like a vast game of telephone, things repeated down the years and getting more confused with every repetition--or translation.

[MineralMan]

9. Yes, Koine and modern Greek are different,

but a simple story with simple words shouldn't be that difficult, really.

I speak and read Russian. I have little trouble reading Old Church Slavonic, the language used in the liturgy of the Russian Orthodox Church. It uses even a slightly different alphabet, but I can read it OK, despite the differences.

[sprinkleeninow]

12. You made me woozy. eom

[MineralMan]

11. BTW, I can also read Old English and Middle English.

I read Beowulf in Old English and Chaucer in Middle English.

[TexasProgresive]

7. "Traduttore, tradittore" or Translator, traitor

The one thing I still have from studying Latin and French is that a translation is always the interpretation of the translator. I that person knows only the language without know the people who speak it, it gets worse. Your Greek friend wrote in modern day Greek and not the Greek commonly used 2,000 years ago. Kind of like old English v. modern English. And don't get me started about the problem of idiomatic speech in different countries speaking the "same" language.

[MineralMan]

10. Yes, I understand all of that. However, I still had questions about

the translation process and why something would require an explanation based on the Koine Greek version of the same passage. Language is difficult enough as it is, and something that has been translated from more than one language and then passed through a bunch of priests to decide how it should read. By the time we get to English, it's all sort of confusing.

So a collection of second-hand copies of scriptures, written over a period of a couple of thousand years in several old languages, got translated and assembled into what the Christian churches use. Plus there are multiple translations into English, even, all of which differ to one degree or another.

And people are still having to explain confusing passages by referring to one of the intermediate languages, even if the person doing the referring has little to no knowledge of that intermediate language. It doesn't inspire me to have much belief in its accuracy, frankly.

Plus the argument that it's all inspired by, given by, or otherwise transmitted by a deity is not much help, since that circular logic is based on a premise that cannot be verified. To believe the Bible, one must first believe that the deity exists. Too much of a stretch for me, really.

[guillaumeb]

14. When translating from one language to another,

variances can occur.

And when things are copied by sometimes illiterate copyists, errors can occur.

And if you have ever had a class in Medieval English, the changes that have occurred in English are dramatic.

[Voltaire2]

15. Your Greek immigrant did not speak read or write the Greek language of the new testament.

You do know that, right?

[Heddi]

16. did you still have that paper in your pocket

and you transcribed it here for us or did you memorize the greek

curious minds want to know

[MineralMan]

17. I converted it to a graphics file in both languages in 1984,

when I got my first PC. I've moved those files, along with many others, to each new PC as time has passed. I have pretty much everything I have ever written stored on various digital media, since my high school days in the early 1960s.

I retyped the English today, and used Google Translate, then checked the Greek to make sure it was the same.

Thanks for asking.

[Heddi]

18. That is just an amazing story

amazing

[MineralMan]

19. Why? Instead of storing all that stuff on paper,

I started storing it as data as soon as I could. First, on 5.25" floppies, and transferred to new formats as they appeared. Now, they're all on DVDs and on USB thumb drives. Everything is sorted into folders with file names that let me access individual items quickly.

Why? Because it's important to me. I'm weird that way.

[struggle4progress]

21. Can you read English?

https://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/basis/beowulf-oe.asp

[MineralMan]

22. Poorly in Old English, but I read Beowulf

in Old English decades ago. I'm very rusty at it these days, however. As an old English major, that was one of the more interesting classes I had, though.

[MineralMan]

23. There is considerably less difference between Koine Greek and Modern Greek

Here's an interesting link about that:
https://forum.wordreference.com/threads/how-understandable-is-koine-greek-to-a-modern-greek-speaker.1249898/

And here is a passage from the book of John, rendered in Koine and Modern Greek. I know no Greek at all, but looking at the two blocks of text, it seems to me that it wouldn't be that difficult for an educated Greek person to understand the Koine version reasonably well. One Greek poster in the thread at the above link says the Koine would be understood by a modern Greek speaker. I will take that poster's word for it:

Koine:
?? ?? ???????? ?? ??? ????????? ????????? ????? ???? ????? ??? ????????
????? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ????? ??????? ??? ??? ???? ???????? ?????????? ?????? ??? ????? ?? ?????? ??????? ?????? ? ?? ?????? ??? ?? ? ? ???? ??? ?????
???????? ? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??? ??? ?? ??? ??????? ?????? ?? ??????? ????? ??? ????????? ??? ????
????? ???? ????? ? ????????? ??? ??????? ???????? ?????????? ????? ?? ?? ??????? ??? ??? ??????? ??? ?????? ????? ???????? ????????? ??? ??????????
???????? ? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ??? ?? ??? ??????? ?? ?????? ??? ????????? ?? ??????? ????????? ??? ??? ????????? ??? ????
?? ???????????? ?? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ??? ?? ???????????? ?? ??? ????????? ?????? ?????
?? ???????? ??? ????? ??? ??? ???? ?????????? ??????
?? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ??? ??? ????? ????? ??????? ??? ??? ????? ????? ??????? ??? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ??? ? ???????????? ?? ??? ?????????


-------------------------------------------------
Modern Greek
Ή?? ?? ά?????ό? ??? ?? ??? ??????ί??, ???ό????? ??????ό?????, ά???? ??? ?????ί??.
?ύ??? ή??? ???? ??? ????ύ? ??ά ????ό? ??? ?ί?? ???? ???ό?· ????ί, ???ύ????? ό?? ??ό ???ύ ή???? ???ά??????· ??ό?? ????ί? ?ύ????? ?? ?ά??? ?? ????ί? ??ύ??, ?? ???ί? ?? ?ά?????, ?ά? ??? ή??? ? ??ό? ???' ????ύ.
?????ί?? ? ????ύ? ??? ?ί?? ???? ???ό?· ????ώ?, ????ώ? ??? ?έ??, ?ά? ??? ??? ??????ή ά?????, ??? ?ύ????? ?? ί?? ??? ??????ί?? ??? ???ύ.
?έ??? ???? ???ό? ? ???ό?????· ??? ?ύ????? ά??????? ?? ??????ή ?έ??? ??; ?ή???? ?ύ????? ?? ???έ??? ????έ??? ???ά? ??? ??? ????ί?? ??? ????ό? ????ύ ??? ?? ??????ή;
?????ί?? ? ????ύ?· ????ώ?, ????ώ? ??? ?έ??, ?ά? ??? ??? ??????ή ?? ύ????? ??? ???ύ?????, ??? ?ύ????? ?? ???έ??? ??? ??? ??????ί?? ??? ???ύ.
?? ????????έ??? ?? ??? ????ό? ?ί??? ???? ??? ?? ????????έ??? ?? ??? ???ύ????? ?ί??? ???ύ??.
?? ????ά??? ό?? ??? ?ί???, ??έ??? ?? ??????ή?? ά?????.
? ά????? ό??? ?έ??? ??έ??, ??? ??? ???ή? ????ύ ???ύ???, ???ά ??? ???ύ???? ?ό??? έ?????? ??? ??? ??ά???· ?ύ??? ?ί??? ???, ό???? ?????ή?? ?? ??? ???ύ?????.