If you believe in a creator god or gods, how did they create?

[Htom Sirveaux]

The traditional Abrahamic monotheistic God is said to be infinite, meaning that there is no "room" for anything else but him. But how does the infinite contradict its own nature by limiting itself in order to produce a finite universe? An infinite divided by a finite is still an infinite. No room, no potential either inside or outside the creator to be brought to actuality (no other beings in existence, no potential within the creator without violating the divine perfection)...logically, creation seems impossible for an infinite being. And said infinite being cannot do the logically impossible without turning itself into a mixture of logical and illogical (violating the divine simplicity, another traditional attribute).

[Xipe Totec]

1. The Creation Hymn of the Rig Veda asserts

that in the beginning there was no air, no heavens, no water, no death and no immortality. Night and day did not exist and there was only the breathing of the One. Then somehow creation occurred. No one knows how this happened, and the Rig Veda speculates that possibly even the One does not know.

-Commentary on the Rig Veda, quoted in "The Turbulent Mirror"

[Htom Sirveaux]

3. Hinduism is definitely something I need to learn more about. n/t

[Xipe Totec]

7. If you want to watch something really trippy, look for The Secret Life of Chaos

Chaos Theory conjures up images of nature gone haywire. But there is a fascinating and hidden side to Chaos, one that scientists are only now beginning to understand. In his continued exploration of the laws of nature, the host of "Everything and Nothing," Jim Al-Khalili shows that Chaos Theory addresses a question humankind has asked for millennia. How did we get here?

[SCantiGOP]

40. Stephen Hawking had no problem with this explanation of the Big Bang

Once there was nothing; suddenly it exploded into everything.

[still_one]

2. Just entertaining your thought game, why do you assume the infinite produces a "finite universe"?

why not an infinite universe?

As to your you assumption of the Abrahamic monotheistic God, it does not attempt to define "how god was created". It just assumes god was always there. Perhaps it is the scientific suggestion of everything started as a singularity, and the concept of god is this singularity

Some religions traditions believe that it is beyond human comprehension to understand where god came from, and they answer it by saying god was always there.

[Htom Sirveaux]

4. Well, if the universe is itself infinite,

then it has no need of a creator to bring it from potentiality to actuality, having always existed. Just as the Abrahamic tradition says of God. The finite universe is the one that is said to need a creator. And I'm no physicist, but my current understanding is that the "singularity" is a product of the fact that our models of the universe break down below a planck length, not an assertion that something called "the singularity" actually existed.

[still_one]

6. What is the universe expanding into, a void, and that assumes whatever that void is, it is infinite

[Voltaire2]

19. it is by definition everything so your question makes no sense.

[Voltaire2]

20. "the concept of god is this singularity" is not even close to the active interventionist god

described in all of the abrahamic texts. That is instead a variation on pantheism. If you wish to limit god to "we don't know what happened at the beginning", that is fine, but generally this position is a tactical one, and the arguer goes on to make other claims for their god that are entirely inconsistent with this very specific and limited claim.

[mia]

5. "...meaning that there is no "room" for anything else but him."

This seems to be the opposite of my understanding of the essence of the word, infinite..."limitless or endless in space, extent, or size; impossible to measure or calculate."

Infinite includes everything within and across space and time. There are no limits in any direction. The very notion of creation involves everlasting potential.

I don't understand what you mean by "divine perfection".

[Htom Sirveaux]

15. In classical theology, God is said to be "fully actual".

Meaning he has fully realized all of his potential. If there was any left over, God could move closer to perfection by realizing it. And there are no other beings besides God to carry a potential for God to bring to actual.

[marylandblue]

33. When I still believed in God, I did not believe this type of theology

I believed in the more ancient concepts that said the gods needed the creation and wasn't perfect without us. This is sort of idea is in the Bible too, where, for example, it says that God enjoys the smell of burnt offerings and wasn't particularly nice. It's only later on, when we traded prophets for theologians that we rationalized and sanitized God into an infinite and perfect being.

[Htom Sirveaux]

36. Were you part of a church that believed in that

God, or was it more personal study?

[marylandblue]

39. Personal study nt

[marylandblue]

8. Jewish mystical writings say that

the Infinite withdrew from a space within itself to create an empty container and then injected Divine Light into this container.

[mia]

14. Does this mean that the infinite defined the outer boundary of creation?

That creation extends infinitely within?

[marylandblue]

17. Yes the outer boundaries are defined by God

and also everything in creation has a spark of the Divine.

[Htom Sirveaux]

16. Indeed, but the limits would themselves be finite.

And an infinite divided by a finite would still be an infinite. So still no "room" for the empty container.

[wasupaloopa]

9. I don't think any of us can say anything for certain about creation.

We can't use any of our sences or our ability to reason to know the answer.

We can only speculate.

[c-rational]

10. In the begining was the word...your post reminds me of the conundrum posited by George Carlin

If God is all powerful can he create a rock so big that he cannot lift it? My answer 40 years later is god is the rock too. How did the ancient yogas see the Unity principle espoused by Emerson and confirmed by modern physicists who discovered the Big Bang...the practice of meditation. The Adwita principal teaches that all knowledge lies within, and when you see two you see falsely.

[bagelsforbreakfast]

11. Obviously they were kinda drunk at the time... n/m

[RKP5637]

12. The God of the Universe is Science! n/t

[Binkie The Clown]

13. "GOD" or more properly, "G.O.D." (Giver of Data) programmed the parameters of the universe,

uploaded the program and punched the Run button, and behold, the simulation we call "reality" booted up and went live, and the rest is, as they say, root/god/history.log

[Htom Sirveaux]

18. Deism updated for the 21st century! nt

[dhol82]

28. I like that!

I really like it.

[Doodley]

30. We still have the question: Who or what created G.O.D?

[Binkie The Clown]

35. Clearly, G.O.D. is an atheist and doesn't believe in a "creator". nt

[Xipe Totec]

41. Or, as Hofstadter recursively defined G.O.D \ G.O.D. over Djinn nt

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recursive_acronym

[guillaumeb]

21. I believe that the Creator created existence.

Questions about the "how" or the motivation of the Creator are speculation.

But an all-powerful being is, by definition, all powerful.

[Htom Sirveaux]

22. But power is not the traditional God's only or most important trait.

Simplicity is equally as important, and being the source of order, God must himself be orderly, and simplicity means that he will be fully orderly. Meaning that even omnipotence does not allow the logically impossible, as I'm suggesting finite creation is for an infinite being.

[guillaumeb]

23. We can speculate about the Creator for eternity.

But I believe that it is impossible for a human intellect to comprehend all that the Creator is.


Impossible for my intellect anyway.

And if the Big Bang started the universe at the Creator's will, all that follows is a result of the Creator's will. Chaos is necessary to order just as darkness is necessary to light.

[Htom Sirveaux]

24. "All that follows is a result of the Creator's will"

God wills evil? That seems implied in your comments that chaos is necessary to order, darkness necessary to light...evil necessary to good?

[guillaumeb]

25. The Creator created, and all else follows.

Death is a part of life. Humans are obviously not perfect, so why would anyone be surprised when they turn out to not be perfect?

[Htom Sirveaux]

26. Is the creator perfect?

Or do the imperfections of the creation reflect an imperfect creator?

[EvilAL]

38. That's it in a nutshell.

A perfect creator cannot create imperfection, he wouldn't be perfect if he could do that.
One cannot be a perfect carpenter and build a crooked house, same as a perfect god cannot create an imperfect human.
It is agreed Humans are not perfect, if they were created it was not by a perfect being.

[Turbineguy]

27. That's a thorny question.

But then there's baby cheeks.

[DavidDvorkin]

29. Apparently by way of meaningless babble.

[Htom Sirveaux]

37. It's an attempt at dealing with medieval theology/philosophy.

I'm not an expert, so hopefully those who know will correct me if I've misinterpreted or omitted something

[Corvo Bianco]

31. It's an asymptote

[Htom Sirveaux]

32. That sounds intriguing, I wish I knew what it meant!

Please expand!

EDIT: Or I could just look it up. Are you saying that the universe is an asymptote, or God is?

[Corvo Bianco]

34. Mmm, like Zeno's paradox

You said that a portion of an infinite space is also an infinite space. All distances are rendered infinite and you are incapable of movement as a result. I think the guy concludes that distance is illusory.

I like that point about the awkwardness of attempting to cram a finite object into a space without actual spacial properties.

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