Why are discussions about religious beliefs always so adversarial?

[MineralMan]

Some people have such beliefs. Others don't. Some people adhere to one religious group. Others adhere to others. Some have no religious beliefs at all. Why, I wonder, do we care?

I'm one of those who has no religious beliefs. I call myself an atheist, because that's what the term means. I know many people who have some sort of religious beliefs. They're welcome to them, but I would rather they didn't try to convince me I need the same beliefs.

Some people think that their religious beliefs are superior to other people's religious beliefs. They often seem eager to explain why other people's religious beliefs are incorrect. And yet, the same people rarely seek to actually examine the beliefs of others. How can they be sure their beliefs are the correct ones, if they have not examined the others?

Normally, I don't inquire into people's religious beliefs. And yet, they often seek to tell me about them. When they do, I may ask questions about those beliefs, particularly when they make little sense to me. But, when I do, often umbrage is taken from my questions. That's puzzling. Do they not truly want to explain their religion to me? Or are my questions somehow troubling to them?

Occasionally, someone will tell me how bad someone else's religious beliefs are. They will tell me that the other person's beliefs are false and violent or are somehow noxious. Sometimes I ask why they feel that way. Again, it soon becomes clear that no attempt has been made to actually understand the other person's beliefs. I find that odd.

Religion appears to be important to the majority of people, so it's of interest to me. I like to ask questions. My questions are not attacks on others' religious beliefs. They are questions to which I desire answers. If someone doesn't have the answers, they can say they do not know, and I will understand that I cannot expect answers from that person who doesn't know.

In the meantime, I do not believe that anything supernatural exists, nor do supernatural entities or gods. I am unable to believe such things. If you ask me questions, I will only be able to repeat that I am unable to believe such things. I cannot help you further in that regard. But, I am interested in your beliefs. I might ask questions about them. Sometimes, the questions might be difficult. Difficult questions, though, are not attacks. They are just questions. You don't have to answer them. Just say, I do not know, and I won't bother you further on that particular point.

[unblock]

1. They are not adversarial and youre going to hell for even thinking that!

[MineralMan]

3. Yah...hell...nah...

That's one of those supernatural things. I don't believe that stuff exists. No evidence for it at all.

[Achilleaze]

2. Because they are so wrong

You wouldn't believe how wrong they are.

[MineralMan]

4. LOL!

You might be correct, for all I know.

[Pope George Ringo II]

5. Monotheism is a big part of the problem

If I'm an electric blender worshiper and you're a toaster worshiper, we'll generally get along under the Kitchen Appliances Pantheon. Neither of us even thinks about it all that much if I strayed that morning and did a little worshiping of the hair dryer and you're going to be saying a couple of prayers to the electric toothbrush in the evening. But the instant you have a One True Electrical Device worshiper in the mix calling us all a bunch of heathens, that's when the beheadings start.

Anyway, that's why Amazon's Alexa is evil.

[MineralMan]

6. I don't trust Alexa one bit.

I asked her a question and she gave me a non-committal answer. Now what am I to do? I unplugged her and put her in a dark drawer in the basement. Maybe that will convey the lesson.

My wife, on the other hand, worships Siri of Apple. I do not understand this attitude, and cannot condone it.

[AtheistCrusader]

41. Hey Siri, tell Google to ask Alexa to turn up the Thermosat.

[MineralMan]

44. Does that even work?

I'll try it. Alexa is always too warm, while I'm shivering.

[hunter]

10. Everyone knows the coffee maker is god.

What's wrong with you?

[Pope George Ringo II]

18. Instead of coffee, I'll take tea my dear

I like my toast done on one side.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

11. Ohhh, that's the best description of religion

I've ever heard.

Thanks.

[guillaumeb]

7. Because some from both camps prefer name calling to dialogue.

And my own view is that, speaking strictly of DU, one camp prefers invective to dialogue.

[MineralMan]

8. Let me check with the "choir" on that...

[guillaumeb]

9. Alto-gether now.

[AtheistCrusader]

43. Pathetic deflection.

Hoist by your own petard.

[tymorial]

53. Oh by all means demonstrate where the majority of atheists on DU engage in discussion more than ins

I am agnostic and do not generally engage in debates about any particular religion or benefits of faith. Yet there are daily occurrences of posters calling religious beliefs fairy tales and dismissing others when they objects. Quite frankly the behavior of some atheist posters is reminiscent of fundamentalist types. Both proclaim their superiority and treat the other with contempt. Why are they similar oh yeah...

People build communities. Communities of like ideas (DU) and defend those communities and ideas from others who do not agree (Conservatives). Religion is an aspect of this. Monotheism is an aspect of this. Atheism is not exempt. Atheists are human after all and humans get together to build communities of like ideas. Sometimes those ideas are incorrect conflict of those believed by other communities which leads me to another wonderful aspect of humanity...

our absolute love, and I do mean love as in it is the core of our being, othering those who are different.

[AtheistCrusader]

60. The back and forth in this folder is ongoing and has been for some time.

Most of it flared up around political issues wherein one might think everyone on DU would be on the same page, but religious ideology got in the way of things like, oh I don't know, supporting the ACA.

It's been a squabble since. We didn't start it, iirc. Some of the people who did start it, aren't here anymore.

[AtheistCrusader]

63. If you think it's 'bad' for religion in here, go have a gander at General Discussion. We're nice.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/10141951885

[Voltaire2]

14. and there it is, another example of the "atheists badz" trope.

Thanks again for stepping on your own foot. Bless you.

[guillaumeb]

15. Wrong, again.

There is a difference between "some" and "all".

And some here realize that.

But not all.

[marylandblue]

16. Some or all is not the question

The question is, why do issues of religion raise such strong emotions, strong reaction and counter-reactions in the first place? It's not really about this board. You may say it's just because people are violent, but there is more to it than that. People have argued about whether cats are better pets than dogs, but there has never been a war about having the wrong kind of pet.

[guillaumeb]

17. And that is a very good question.

How much of what are called religious wars are really wars by competing elites from different countries that happen to have different reliigous beliefs?

Religion, language, national identity are all used by the elites to divide people.

[marylandblue]

19. Still, that avoids the issues

Why were the Crusades about recapturing Jerusalem from the Saracens and not about Latin vs. Arabic?

[guillaumeb]

20. Why have European countries fought fir hundreds of years?

Power, access to resources, access to trade routes, and often religion is used as motivation. But even countries like France and Spain that share the same religious beliefs are subject to the same wars.

[marylandblue]

24. Power and money are obvious motivators

Religion is not so obvious. Why do we think God cares so much what book you read? Hardly seems worth His time, let alone spilling blood over. Even if it's manipulation by elites, why are people so easy to manipulate over that one, when there is nothing real to be gained by it?

[guillaumeb]

25. Why are people so easy to manipulate?

Another excellent question. Does it relate to education? Or to a shared view of reality?

[marylandblue]

28. Why do you make it into a question I didn't ask?

Even call it an "excellent question?" Answer the question or not, but don't make it like I asked something I didn't, then congratulate on your own substitute question.

[guillaumeb]

29. Your ending:

Even if it's manipulation by elites, why are people so easy to manipulate over that one, when there is nothing real to be gained by it?

You did ask the question. And everyone can be manipulated.

[marylandblue]

31. OVER THAT ONE (i.e. religion?) It was clear what I was referring to

And if it wasn't clear to you then, I am making it clear now. Why is it easy to manipulate people over religion? It's not the same as power or money, which gives gains in this world for people who are willing to hurt others to get them. But how do promises of an unseen after life get people to attack others in the name of a "God of Peace."

[guillaumeb]

32. Every belief system is used as a tool to manipulate.

Why? Because it works.

[marylandblue]

33. Nobody ever went to war over whether cats are better than dogs

Or whether the king of the gods should be called Zeus or Jupiter, for that matter.

[guillaumeb]

34. No, but millions went to war to defend their countries.

That belief system is called patriotism.

[marylandblue]

35. Point is, not EVERY belief system can be used for manipulation

[guillaumeb]

36. Feel free to name one that cannot.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

37. You made it clear you thought the problem was the atheists

You put no blame on yourself or theists in general. Just the atheists.

So, yeah, "atheists bad" trope activated.

You would do well to just apologize and stop doing it, but that won't happen.

[guillaumeb]

38. No, you misframed, or misunderstood.

Nuance is useful to discussion, but I understand if some need to find the "atheists bad" meme to justify the responses.

[trotsky]

40. Nobody misframed or misunderstood.

You blamed "one camp" and that's clearly not YOURS.

You humiliated yourself yet again, g. Keep up the great work!

[Cuthbert Allgood]

45. "And my own view is that, speaking strictly of DU, one camp prefers invective to dialogue."

Please explain the "nuance" in that sentence that I am misunderstanding.

Did you mean theists when you said "one camp prefers"?

You blame everything on atheists. The "other camp" doesn't hold any guilt in the problems.

But, please, explain what I am missing in what is a pretty straightforward sentence. Maybe if everyone "misunderstands" what you are trying to say, the problem may lie with you and not everyone else.

[guillaumeb]

46. Read the many responses.

And decide which side constantly insults with claims of childish belief, or logical inconsistency, or imaginary beliefs, and all of the many demeaning phrases that are constantly thrown out in the belief that insult is an acceptable substitute for actual argument.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

47. OK, so your argument that you AREN'T saying atheist are bad guys

is to say that atheist are the bad guys.

So I missed a grand total of ZERO nuance, right?

How about when you continually refuse to define atheism as atheists have told you it is defined. That we don't lack a belief in god but just don't have any beliefs in any gods. But you aren't a nasty atheist so you aren't the problem, right.

[guillaumeb]

48. So atheists can define theism, as is evident from many posts here,

but theists cannot define atheism. That seems to be the point that you are making.

[Lordquinton]

49. Not theists

You specifically.

[guillaumeb]

62. Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!

So there is a double standard. Thank you for admitting it.

[Lordquinton]

64. You just make it up as you go along

Don't you? Yet another answer as to why discussions can't happen, bad faith from the faithful.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

50. Nice diversion from the point about you using the atheists bad trope.

Your lack of a response indicates you realize you know you are doing it.

In which post does an atheist define theism in a way theists don't like? I mean, I define it as belief in at least one god. Is that offensive? Because I'll define it differently if you wish.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

51. Additionally, the point I am making is that you define it poorly,

it is pointed out to you that you define it poorly, and you continue regardless of what has been told to you.

[trotsky]

39. LOLOLOL

Isn't he helpful that way?

[AtheistCrusader]

42. There were, up until recently, two camps.

Sorry yours seems to have thinned a bit.


I was a bit more pleasant, going back a couple years in my posts. It seems some people in some camp may have burned out my pleasantries.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

12. Basically because most people think in their heart of hearts that their

beliefs are logical and self-evident, and of course everyone else should believe the same way.

I know. I'm frequently astonished that everyone else doesn't believe as I do, even though I know perfectly well that my beliefs are outside the mainstream.

On a related note, when discussing dealing with the death of someone close, I will say that if you have religious or spiritual beliefs, you should go there to deal with that death.

[PragmaticDem]

13. Because you are talking about deeply held views.

Sometimes believers and non-believers take themselves too seriously!

[Mariana]

21. Some religions teach outright that everyone who worships a different god

or no god at all, is evil by definition. Many Christians, for example, believe if you're not a Christian (or just maybe, a Jew), then you're serving Satan. Period. There is no other option, you are either with them or against them, either good or evil. When you ask awkward questions, you may cause them to doubt their faith. That is exactly what Satan wants, and you're acting as Satan's agent, so they get defensive and angry.

Every religious person thinks his beliefs are superior to other people's religious beliefs. If they didn't, they wouldn't subscribe to their particular religion in the first place. They'd convert.

[Pope George Ringo II]

22. There was a hubbub a few years ago when Ratzinger said he thought his religion was the best.

Heck, I thought that was a job requirement for him long before they gave him the white frock.

[Mariana]

23. It's just foolish to get upset about that.

Of course he thinks it's the best!

[RKP5637]

26. IMO religions are often authoritative and fraught with legends and seldom introspective at least

in my experience. Hence, I will stay with no religion for me.

[rickford66]

30. Because it's easy to shoot holes in any religious belief.

[Act_of_Reparation]

52. For the same reasons discussions about white or male privilege are likewise adversarial.

Those from the privileged class invariably personalize the issue, making the discussion all about their inflamed sense of indignation instead of all the horrible shit people with actual political power and influence are allowed to get away with because they are fortunate enough to share a religion with two-thirds of the population.

[democratisphere]

54. Intolerance of religions among the so-called religious.

Thou shall not hate thy neighbor's religion.

[MineralMan]

55. Said no Commandment ever.

[democratisphere]

56. That was the eleventh commandment that was never published.

[Mariana]

65. ...

[democratisphere]

66. Like I was saying.

With proof!

[WhiteTara]

57. My theory on this very question is that

God is just for me and my friends. Everything you believe is wrong.

[MineralMan]

58. That theory has spread far and wide.

[WhiteTara]

59. Yes. I agree and it is so sad because

it shows how provincial some people are. Reading and travel broaden one's perspective and tend to make one more liberal because you see that there are many many different ways to experience life.

As a child, when I read that biblical passage about My Father's Mansion has many Windows, I flew out and have given myself a deep and broad perspective on the universe and purpose and how to live day to day.

For many though, because they live in a closed and narrow world view, personalize God and so that's where the hatred for Other comes from.

One of the early Goddesses was named Hell and she cradled each person in death and carried them to the next world. When that society was invaded and conquered, Hell became a curse, not a blessing. And so it goes.

[Act_of_Reparation]

61. I assume you're talking about Hel.

But I don't recall her cradling anyone. She was the daughter of Lokí and Angraboda, and along with her brothers Jörmungandr and Fenrir was exiled on the account of her parentage. Hel was sent to Niflheim, the World of Darkness, and was charged with providing room and board to the portion of the dead who perished from sickness or old age. From her gloomy, dour disposition one gets the impression she wasn't happy about this.

I get the impression it was a far preferable fate to die in combat and go to Valhalla instead.