One of the Primary Elements of Calvinism is Predestination - Thomas Paine Wrote about It

[MineralMan]

Since Calvinism has a long history in the United States, dating back to colonial days, it's always of interest to students of US History and religion, as well. The general idea behind the doctrine of Predestination is that God has already decided who are the chosen, the elect, and that's that. Predestination sort of minimizes the concept of free will. So, if you're successful and wealthy, it is evidence of your selection by the deity. It's more complicated than that, of course, but it's a Paulist idea. Many people who believe they are Christians are really Calvinistic Paulists, it seems.

Now, I'm not going to quote all of Thomas Paine's essay regarding predestination. It wouldn't be of enough interest here. However, he very effectively explains why the idea and the apologetics for it is sophistry, pure and simple. If you're at all interested in this, you can read Paine's compact essay at the link below, with just the opening two paragraphs as a teaser:

http://www.deism.com/paine_essay_predestination_calvinism.htm

Paul, in speaking of God, says, "Therefore hath He mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardeneth. Thou wilt say, why doth He yet find fault? For who hath resisted His will? Nay, but who art thou, O man, that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to Him that formed it, Why hast Thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay of the same lump, to make one vessel unto honor and another unto dishonor?"

I shall leave it to Calvinists and Universalists to wrangle about these expressions, and to oppose or corroborate them by other passages from other books of the Old or New Testament. I shall go to the root at once, and say, that the whole passage is presumption and nonsense.

[Xipe Totec]

1. Is God a Taoist?

Mortal:
And therefore, O God, I pray thee, if thou hast one ounce of mercy for this thy suffering creature, absolve me of having to have free will!

God:
You reject the greatest gift I have given thee?

Mortal:
How can you call that which was forced on me a gift? I have free will, but not of my own choice. I have never freely chosen to have free will. I have to have free will, whether I like it or not!

God:
Why would you wish not to have free will?

Mortal:
Because free will means moral responsibility, and moral responsibility is more than I can bear!

God:
Why do you find moral responsibility so unbearable?

Mortal:
Why? I honestly can't analyze why; all I know is that I do.

God:
All right, in that case suppose I absolve you from all moral responsibility but leave you still with free will. Will this be satisfactory?

Mortal (after a pause):
No, I am afraid not.

God:
Ah, just as I thought! So moral responsibility is not the only aspect of free will to which you object. What else about free will is bothering you?

Mortal:
With free will I am capable of sinning, and I don't want to sin!

God:
If you don't want to sin, then why do you?


Good read:

http://www.mit.edu/people/dpolicar/writing/prose/text/godTaoist.html

[Ron Obvious]

2. If you accept divine omniscience, predestination is unavoidable

If you believe that God knew a century before my birth whether I would chose tea or coffee for breakfast this morning, and surely it would be heretical for any Christian to believe otherwise, than it's clear any choice I have in the matter is illusory. Same with everything else.

Free will and omniscience are incompatible. I don't know why this isn't obvious to any intelligent 13 year old.

Not a problem for atheists, obviously.

[MineralMan]

3. That's a topic that gets a lot of discussion among Christians.

But, you're right, we atheists don't concern ourselves all that much about it. We don't buy the premise of deities in the first place. Everything after that is a logical error. But Christians have been duking it out over all that for a couple thousand years. Keeps them busy, I suppose, so that's not a bad thing.

The argument you're missing, though, is that the deity is also supposed to be omnipotent and could choose to let humans make their own choices if it wished to. A lot of Christians take that approach to it. It's all sophistry, though.

[Ron Obvious]

6. Sophistry indeed

I've actually had a believer tell me that God merely knew 160 years ago what choice I would freely make this morning rather than having had a hand in it. She looked smug as her fellow believers in our gathering applauded her for routing the evil atheist with logic. Hard to argue with a brick wall.

A clear case of cognitive dissonance in otherwise intelligent people I would imagine. I can't see how they can't see the contradiction myself.

Free will itself is a much more interesting concept IMO. I've been reading a bit of Sam Harris and Daniel Dennet among others, and have come reluctantly to the conclusion that it, like the sense of self, may indeed be an illusion.

[MineralMan]

7. Free will is complicated, to be sure.

Many choices I make are pretty much automatic and are based on who I am, my background, and other factors. However, there are choices that I make, based on careful analysis of what that choice is most likely to mean in the future. Those tend to be major choices of direction that affect multiple aspects of my life. I have changed direction drastically several times during my life. Each time, the decision was made after long consideration and attempts to predict what effects the decision would produce.

I tend to think free will is available, if we choose to use it. I also think that many people don't exercise it most of the time. It's easier not to bother. I don't see it as an illusion, nor do I see my sense of self as unchangeable. However, I don't agonize over most decisions. Typically, they don't matter all that much, really.

[Permanut]

4. Bookmarking the website..

A lot of great information. Citations from Paine and Franklin, as well as other sources such as the Danbury Baptist letter and the Treaty of Tripoli, make it clear that this nation is not a Christian nation. The evangelicals and fundies are working very hard, and have been for a very long time, to convince people otherwise.

Calvinism plays right into the strategery of the Mercers, Adelsons, Waltons and the rest of the 1%, so promoting this crap is very useful. Marries the "Protestant Ethic" to capitalism, as described by Max Weber. Keeps the willfully ignorant rubes working hard in the hope of getting rich, which of course will happen if the government doesn't interfere.

[MineralMan]

5. Yes. It looks like a good resource for future reference.