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struggle4progress

(118,282 posts)
Tue Mar 6, 2018, 03:53 AM Mar 2018

I believe I should love my neighbor. This seems so obviously true to me

that, despite having no rational evidence for it, I think I will not abandon the opinion

In fact, it seems so important to me that I am willing to abandon various other notions, that I feel are supported by some rational evidence, when those notions suggest to me that I should not love my neighbor

If you want a better explanation of why I hold this view, I could tell you I consider it a religious duty

If you then want to tell me I am a fool for holding religious views, that will not dissuade me from my view: in fact, I finally became "religious" simply because I became convinced that I should consider loving my neighbor to be important beyond almost everything else

If you ask me how I decide whether a religion is "true" or not, I do not need to engage in fancy dissections: I need only study whether the religion teaches us to love our neighbors

It is easy to say and often difficult to do. There are many things I do not need for it: knowledge of the origin of the cosmos or mathematical logic, for example. Many things, that I do not need for it, do interest me; and some things, that I do not need for it, can be put to very good use in exercising it.

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I believe I should love my neighbor. This seems so obviously true to me (Original Post) struggle4progress Mar 2018 OP
An admirable maxum. JNelson6563 Mar 2018 #1
Altruism - thbobby Mar 2018 #2
I'm not a religious person at all, but safeinOhio Mar 2018 #3
"Love your neighbor." How would you define "neighbor" in the modern world? Doodley Mar 2018 #4
In other words safeinOhio Mar 2018 #5
I agree with that. Doodley Mar 2018 #7
A man was going from Atlanta to Albany, and some gangsters held him up. When they had robbed him struggle4progress Mar 2018 #8
Reciprocity is the underlying principle for almost everything. MineralMan Mar 2018 #6
I believe I should love my neighbor whether or not the neighbor reciprocates struggle4progress Mar 2018 #10
Reciprocity as a principle is not bargaining. MineralMan Mar 2018 #11
Why is it simply right action? newcriminal Mar 2018 #14
Because it is reciprocity. MineralMan Mar 2018 #15
That's circular. newcriminal Mar 2018 #16
See this: MineralMan Mar 2018 #24
Which remains a religious basis. newcriminal Mar 2018 #25
You asked about Right Action MineralMan Mar 2018 #27
You are certainly free to use the word "reciprocity" as you choose, struggle4progress Mar 2018 #19
See this: MineralMan Mar 2018 #20
"Social reciprocity conventions" may include revenge struggle4progress Mar 2018 #21
How about if your neighbor steals all your stuff Voltaire2 Mar 2018 #13
I do not believe I am required to feel nice warm fuzzy sentiment struggle4progress Mar 2018 #17
Sorry, I'm not in enough shape to keep up with your leaps Lordquinton Mar 2018 #9
People often get a cozy feeling by imagining that they love their neighbors, struggle4progress Mar 2018 #18
So you double down on your emotional argument Lordquinton Mar 2018 #23
A personal attack? guillaumeb Mar 2018 #28
Has somebody claimed that ethics are foolish? Voltaire2 Mar 2018 #12
No, it's a religion now Lordquinton Mar 2018 #22
Or at least, treat him/her as you would have him treat you. sandensea Mar 2018 #26
Recommended. guillaumeb Mar 2018 #29

thbobby

(1,474 posts)
2. Altruism -
Tue Mar 6, 2018, 04:29 AM
Mar 2018

the belief in or practice of disinterested and selfless concern for the well-being of others:
"some may choose to work with vulnerable elderly people out of altruism"

Religion does teach altruism. The most altruistic creatures on earth are ants. They will mindlessly give their lives to save the colony which is for the good of all ants. Altruism is natural for life. I respect and admire your view of religion. I am an atheist, but that does not mean I love my neighbors more or less than you love yours.

safeinOhio

(32,675 posts)
3. I'm not a religious person at all, but
Tue Mar 6, 2018, 05:52 AM
Mar 2018

I will support all ideas that are contrary to the teaching of Ayan Rand.

Doodley

(9,088 posts)
4. "Love your neighbor." How would you define "neighbor" in the modern world?
Tue Mar 6, 2018, 06:08 AM
Mar 2018

Is it the people who live in the house next to yours? Or is it people in your community, or in other nations who may be in need of support? How do you define "love?" Is it to be nice, but helpful when it is convenient? Is it to merely have the best well wishes? Or is it to give of ourselves, to share our worldly goods and our time, even when it is inconvenient to ourselves? Which one of these can you say is "true" in your case?

Doodley

(9,088 posts)
7. I agree with that.
Tue Mar 6, 2018, 11:19 AM
Mar 2018

But if I was without anything and my family were sick and without food or shelter, I would wish for more than "treat others as you wish to be treated" or "love your neighbor." We live as rich men with our cars and computers and heated, air-conditioned homes. Most of us in the West live better than kings of 2000 years ago, and yet there are desperate people in our own cities and abroad. What does "love your neighbor" actually mean? And does "treat others as you wish to be treated" simply mean by polite and respectful, but do not sacrifice?

struggle4progress

(118,282 posts)
8. A man was going from Atlanta to Albany, and some gangsters held him up. When they had robbed him
Tue Mar 6, 2018, 06:24 PM
Mar 2018

of his wallet and brand-new suit, they beat him up and drove off in his car, leaving him unconscious on the shoulder of the highway.Now it just so happened that a white preacher was going down that same highway. When he saw the fellow, he stepped on the gas and went scooting by. Shortly afterwards a white Gospel song leader came down the road, and when he saw what had happened, he too stepped on the gas. Then, a black man traveling that way came upon the fellow, and what he saw moved him to tears. He stopped and bound up his wounds as best he could, drew some water from his water-jug to wipe away the blood and then laid him on the back seat. He drove on into Albany and took him to the hospital and said to the nurse, “You all take good care of this white man I found on the Highway. Here’s the only two dollars I got, but you all keep account of what he owes, and if he can’t pay it, I’ll settle up with you when I make a pay-day." Now if you had been the man held up by the gangsters, which of these three — the white preacher, the white song leader, or the black man — would you consider to have been your neighbor?

http://www.westminster.edu/staff/nak/courses/CottonLk10.htm

struggle4progress

(118,282 posts)
10. I believe I should love my neighbor whether or not the neighbor reciprocates
Tue Mar 6, 2018, 06:58 PM
Mar 2018

Reciprocity, of course, is fine when it occurs, but I believe love of neighbor should go beyond mere repayment of kindness

MineralMan

(146,296 posts)
11. Reciprocity as a principle is not bargaining.
Tue Mar 6, 2018, 08:50 PM
Mar 2018

One simply behaves in a way one wishes others would behave. It is simply right action. The actions of others do not or should not influence one's own actions.

Reciprocity is being polite, even when others are rude. It is being honest when others are not. It is modeling right behavior regardless of the behavior of others.

MineralMan

(146,296 posts)
15. Because it is reciprocity.
Tue Mar 6, 2018, 09:34 PM
Mar 2018

That is a fundamental ethical principle in every religion of which I am aware, and of most secular cultures and societies.

Really, it is the most fundamental rule. One way or another, all ethical rules derive from it. Think about it for awhile. Even Jesus is supposed to have called it one of The Greatest Commandments.

Matthew 22:36-40 New International Version (NIV)
36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”


 

newcriminal

(2,190 posts)
16. That's circular.
Tue Mar 6, 2018, 09:39 PM
Mar 2018

If it is dependent on something in return, it is not "simply right", it is conditional. By that formulation, if reciprocity is absent it is something other than right. Your surprising reliance on scripture to support your point does not buttress your argument.

MineralMan

(146,296 posts)
24. See this:
Wed Mar 7, 2018, 11:50 AM
Mar 2018
https://www.thoughtco.com/right-action-450068

Right Action is part of the Buddhist eightfold path. It is also part of the ethical compass of many religions and cultures.

MineralMan

(146,296 posts)
27. You asked about Right Action
Wed Mar 7, 2018, 01:48 PM
Mar 2018

I provided a link. The principle of Reciprocity is expressed in many ways. Some are religious in nature and some are not. It is a principle that is held by most cultures and philosophies. It comes close to being a universal principle, whether it is actually practiced or not. You claim to be a religious person, so I linked to religious sources to make it easier for you to understand.

I used the term "Right Action" because it is widely recognized by people who are interested in the world's religions.

Right Action is based on the principle of Reciprocity. It does not concern what others do, but only on what the individual who wished to do Right Actions does.

Secular Humanism also includes the principle of Reciprocity. It is not just a religious principle. It is a logical principle that any thinking person recognizes at once as valid, if sometimes difficult to follow. Very few people are faithful followers of that principle.

If everyone followed it, the world would be at peace. Clearly, the world is not at peace.

struggle4progress

(118,282 posts)
19. You are certainly free to use the word "reciprocity" as you choose,
Wed Mar 7, 2018, 12:19 AM
Mar 2018

provided you tell us what you mean when you use it, but I note that your use is not the one commonly used in philosophical discussions of ethics:

Reciprocity
To reciprocate is to return good in proportion to the good one has received, or to retaliate proportionately for harms. The central, contested philosophical issues surrounding reciprocity are whether reciprocity is a fundamental moral principle or a subsidiary one; how we are to measure fittingness and proportionality; and whether the norm of reciprocity requires that we reciprocate for all the goods we receive, or only for the ones we invite ...

A theory of reciprocity
http://martinstrobel.net/Jena/literature/Falk-Fischbacher_GEB-2006_A-theory-of-reciprocity.pdf
People are reciprocal if they reward kind actions and punish unkind ones. In this paper we present a formal theory of reciprocity. It takes into account that people evaluate the kindness of an action not only by its consequences but also by its underlying intention ...

Voltaire2

(13,027 posts)
13. How about if your neighbor steals all your stuff
Tue Mar 6, 2018, 08:57 PM
Mar 2018

poisons your dog and burns down your house?

Still full of love?

struggle4progress

(118,282 posts)
17. I do not believe I am required to feel nice warm fuzzy sentiment
Tue Mar 6, 2018, 09:46 PM
Mar 2018

towards my neighbor: in fact, I actually think I am allowed to regard a neighbor, such as you describe, as objectively being my enemy

What I mean by "love" here is something other than sentimentalism: it precludes hatred but requires something more than simply avoiding hatred; it is not a "natural" emotional response but rather imagines how I should respond in the world in which I wish I lived

Lordquinton

(7,886 posts)
9. Sorry, I'm not in enough shape to keep up with your leaps
Tue Mar 6, 2018, 06:45 PM
Mar 2018

and burying your point in cushy emotional words is a low tactic.

struggle4progress

(118,282 posts)
18. People often get a cozy feeling by imagining that they love their neighbors,
Tue Mar 6, 2018, 09:51 PM
Mar 2018

but it usually evaporates once they realize what ornery SOBs their neighbors really are; and at that point the project of loving one's neighbor can be salvaged only by recognizing that the world's ornery SOBs typically include one's own self

Lordquinton

(7,886 posts)
23. So you double down on your emotional argument
Wed Mar 7, 2018, 11:40 AM
Mar 2018

While throwing in a personal attack.

Your logic remains faulty.

sandensea

(21,633 posts)
26. Or at least, treat him/her as you would have him treat you.
Wed Mar 7, 2018, 01:36 PM
Mar 2018

And advocate for him those same rights one would expect for oneself.

Why our Republican friends feel anything less would work (and do they ever!), is beyond me.

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