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Related: About this forumThinking about Adam and Eve.
Adam and Eve
This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, when the LORD God made the earth and the heavens .
Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being
But for Adam no suitable helper was found. So the LORD God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the mans ribs and then closed up the place with flesh. Then the LORD God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.
The above is an abbreviated version of the story. It can be read as a narrative wherein the Creator fashioned the first 2 humans, but on a deeper level it can be read as science.
Consider the very names Adam and Eve. In Hebrew, the name Adam is derived from the Hebrew word for earth. The name Eve is derived from the Hebrew word for life, or to live. So reading it in that sense, from the earth comes life.
Now, consider the taking of a rib from Adam's side and fashioning a woman from that rib. Consider too that in 5800 BCE humans were presumably aware that man and woman have an equal number of ribs. So any claim that this verse must be only read literally presumes that early man was unaware that male and female have the same number of ribs.
But, if we consider that males are XY and females are XX, that missing rib is the bottom of the X. And I feel that this metaphorical interpretation is deliberate.
So in Genesis, we have the Big Bang, basic earth science, and biology all disguised as a simple creation story.
msongs
(67,441 posts)guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)marylandblue
(12,344 posts)guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)God revealing the Grand Unification Theory reconciling Newtonian Physics with Quantum Mechanics would require quite a stretch on people who were having a tough time giving up worshipping the Golden Calf!
Kabbalah tradition suggests just as you say - much deeper underlying truths in the texts!
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)It makes no sense that a hunting society would believe something so obviously disprovable about a human body.
yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)It's most amazing that unbelievers insist every word is true!
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Classic straw man tactic.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)So I'd never accuse him of believing anything in the Bible.
edhopper
(33,615 posts)which words are true?
Belueves never give a staight answer.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)The Hebrew word tsela appears 40 times in the Hebrew bible. The only time it has been translated to mean rib is in the genesis story. Nobody knows for certain even when it was written. The reality is biblical scholars just dont know if the translation is correct. The translation was almost certainly done by someone who had little to no knowledge of anatomy and at best was a guess. It could just as easily mean testicle or some other body part that may not even exist today, like a tail. The translation of a centuries old document is not an exact science. Extrapolating some kind of metaphorical meaning from something you cant come close to knowing simply increases the chances you are wrong.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Yes, you can state that it MIGHT translate as another word entirely, but numerous sources translate the word as rib.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)It states the word far more often translates as something other than rib.
The idea of high fidelity of a document translation they cant even nail down to any time frame spanning less than a few thousand years just isnt that good. There is considerable debate on the subject whether or not you decide to believe in it.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)1 through 4 translate as rib. And yes, rib can also translate as a piece of wood in a structure, or part of a hill, but in the context of of the text wherein God is opening Adam's side, are you really prepared to argue that God took out a piece of wood or a part of a hillside?
Sorry, your explanation ignores context to find a controversy.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)If you really want to discuss context, Id be glad to do so. What makes you so sure it means rib when exactly zero other context points to that definition?
Its not my explanation. Scholars have been trying for centuries to figure out what it means. Its no more controversial than countless other words which are subject to mistranslation.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)My source refutes what you said. That is all that needs to be said about this exchange.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)The answer to your question is no, I am not certain and neither is anyone else who is both knowledgeable and honest on the subject. I get that faith enables you to be certain about all sorts of things without the benefit of reason, but not everyone is so easily convinced.
Had you bothered to open your mind to anything which works contrary to your faith, you might have discovered the Hebrew word you assume means rib is not used for that same meaning anywhere else in the Hebrew bible besides Genesis which your own source clearly proves. Meanwhile the ancient Hebrew word which most certainly does mean rib was not used in Genesis. For anyone not clouded by faith this translates to reasonable doubt, yet you are the one who is certain. Funny how that works.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)The source contradicts what you claim it said. Funny indeed.
And in the specific context of the verse, only the meaning of human rib fits. So you ignore the context and the translation source in your "explanation".
So, speaking of closed minds............
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)Your source lists several possible meanings for the word from several different translators.
The idea that only rib fits is nonsense. Many biblical scholars who I am quite sure are more educated and convincing on the subject compared to you have offered many other possibilities that fit.
Im certainly open to the possibility that the word does mean rib, but I acknowledge theres considerable debate about alternative translations. So as far as closed minds go, theres that.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)The one that I partially quoted in the post.
Now, demonstrate how any other meaning for the word can fit with the specific verse cited.
I appreciate your argument about differing meanings, and we cannot truly understand the specific mindset of someone writing thousands of years ago, but I am speaking of specific verses here.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)You must not have been paying attention earlier.
Farmer-Rick
(10,207 posts)Tying to divine science from a nonsensical, poorly translated, myth of an acient desert tribe is insane.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)When you believe everything is the result of hocus-pocus.
Ferrets are Cool
(21,110 posts)Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)SCantiGOP
(13,873 posts)And mass murder
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)nil desperandum
(654 posts)Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)Get off my lawn.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)NOMA only applies when science starts stepping on gil's beliefs. He is allowed to inject his religion into whatever science he wants, though.
nil desperandum
(654 posts)I thought Adam and Eve was a sex toy company....
trotsky
(49,533 posts)That's completely absurd.
MineralMan
(146,329 posts)There's no science in Genesis. Just fable.
zipplewrath
(16,646 posts)The difference between science fiction and fantasy is hard to define.
MineralMan
(146,329 posts)science didn't exist when it was written. It's fable, entirely. It's not fantasy, either. That genre developed much later and uses fictional concepts that are not part of fables.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)edhopper
(33,615 posts)the Sun was here before the Earth.
Or that there was land before there was water.
Or that there were sea creatures before there were birds.
And the funniest part is that you are using English letters for this bullshit rib theory.
This is embarrassing.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Adam and Eve spoke English just like Jesus did. Everyone knows this.
Permanut
(5,637 posts)guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Of course you are. You can do better. I know that you can.
edhopper
(33,615 posts)Your the one claiming things about Genesis that aren't there.
If it's right, it's God.
If it's wrong, it's metaphor that should be ignored.
no_hypocrisy
(46,185 posts)CrispyQ
(36,509 posts)The rib story is man co-opting the birth process to diminish the equal role of woman in the species. That's my take anyway & I'm sticking with it.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)It's hard to believe that a community of pastoralists did not know how babies were born, therefore they did not believe that Eve literal came from Adam's rib or side or whatever missing parts. And therefore, we can conclude the Creator wills that men rule over women.
MineralMan
(146,329 posts)you get to make up your own story to replace it. I get it. Especially the cool genetics part, where that piece of rib became an X chromosome in some magical way.
And then, there is your assumption that people have always counted each other's rib. I was trying to remember when I counted my ribs, and then counted my girlfriend's ribs. I can't remember ever doing that, somehow. I learned how many ribs I had in biology class or from a book. I was never that interested in my girlfriend's rib count, either. There were so many other interesting things to examine that I guess I just forgot to count 'em up.
What were Adam and Eve's names in Hebrew, I wonder? Or Aramaic? Do you know? Let me look it up:
Ha-adama and Chava.
Knowledge is Good!
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Easily read.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)is where you pretend you thought all of this up on your own. It's not as if you're the first one to come up with this and you're obviously just repeating someone else while taking credit for it yourself.
http://www.genesisandgenetics.org/2014/03/31/eves-dna/
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)about a claim that I never made.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)I'm just pointing out it wasn't yours and you failed to give credit to the source.
If I'm wrong, please explain why because as yet you haven't.
MineralMan
(146,329 posts)were part of your OP. I asked for, and supplied their names in Hebrew, based on an Internet site.
I made all that clear in my reply to you.
Dale Neiburg
(698 posts)that the author of Genesis not only knew about X and Y chromosomes, but that he somehow knew that some day, thousands of years in his future, the letters X and Y would actually be invented.
MineralMan
(146,329 posts)Still, we speak English now, not Hebrew or Aramaic. And we do know about genetics. So, we can use those anachronistic arguments as we please, apparently.
Stretching is good in baseball and apologetics, it seems.
edhopper
(33,615 posts)written down starting 3000 to 2500 years ago.
But we know words don't change so this must be what they said.
Right?
Voltaire2
(13,156 posts)As long as you are reading meaning into the text, an intellectually dishonest practice, you can always get the desired answers out of it.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)Just as long as you understand they were intentionally trying to be non-specific so people could derive metaphorical meanings for whatever they wanted. The part that's interesting to me is the attempts to read things into thousands of years old documents that certainly had a completely different meaning at the time. The obviously plagiarized OP is a good example of how people of superstitious faith will miracle them into saying what they want to hear.
Brainstormy
(2,381 posts)underpants
(182,878 posts)MineralMan
(146,329 posts)She can't be trusted...
muriel_volestrangler
(101,361 posts)Ninti is also one of the eight goddesses of healing who was created by Ninhursag to heal Enkis body. Her specific healing area was the rib (sumerian Ti means rib and to live).[2] Enki had eaten forbidden flowers and was then cursed by Ninhursaga, who was later persuaded by the other gods to heal him. Some scholars suggest that this served as the basis for the story of Eve created from Adam's rib in the Book of Genesis.[3]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninti
...
Dilmun was identified with Bahrain, whose name in Arabic means "two seas", where the fresh waters of the Arabian aquifer mingle with the salt waters of the Persian Gulf. This mingling of waters was known in Sumerian as Nammu, and was identified as the mother of Enki.
The subsequent tale, with similarities to the Biblical story of the forbidden fruit, repeats the story of how fresh water brings life to a barren land.[citation needed] Enki, the Water-Lord then "caused to flow the 'water of the heart" and having fertilised his consort Ninhursag, also known as Ki or Earth, after "Nine days being her nine months, the months of 'womanhood'... like good butter, Nintu, the mother of the land, ...like good butter, gave birth to Ninsar, (Lady Greenery)". When Ninhursag left him, as Water-Lord he came upon Ninsar (Lady Greenery). Not knowing her to be his daughter, and because she reminds him of his absent consort, Enki then seduces and has intercourse with her. Ninsar then gave birth to Ninkurra (Lady Fruitfulness or Lady Pasture), and leaves Enki alone again. A second time, Enki, in his loneliness finds and seduces Ninkurra, and from the union Ninkurra gave birth to Uttu (weaver or spider, the weaver of the web of life).
A third time Enki succumbs to temptation, and attempts seduction of Uttu. Upset about Enki's reputation, Uttu consults Ninhursag, who, upset at the promiscuous wayward nature of her spouse, advises Uttu to avoid the riverbanks, the places likely to be affected by flooding, the home of Enki. In another version of this myth Ninhursag takes Enki's semen from Uttu's womb and plants it in the earth where eight plants rapidly germinate. With his two-faced servant and steward Isimud, "Enki, in the swampland, in the swampland lies stretched out, 'What is this (plant), what is this (plant). His messenger Isimud, answers him; 'My king, this is the tree-plant', he says to him. He cuts it off for him and he (Enki) eats it". And so, despite warnings, Enki consumes the other seven fruit. Consuming his own semen, he falls pregnant (ill with swellings) in his jaw, his teeth, his mouth, his hip, his throat, his limbs, his side and his rib. The gods are at a loss to know what to do, chagrinned they "sit in the dust". As Enki lacks a womb with which to give birth, he seems to be dying with swellings. The fox then asks Enlil King of the Gods, "If I bring Ninhursag before thee, what shall be my reward?" Ninhursag's sacred fox then fetches the goddess.
Ninhursag relents and takes Enki's Ab (water, or semen) into her body, and gives birth to gods of healing of each part of the body. Abu for the Jaw, Nintul for the Hip, Ninsutu for the tooth, Ninkasi for the mouth, Dazimua for the side, Enshagag for the Limbs. The last one, Ninti (Lady Rib), is also a pun on Lady Life, a title of Ninhursag herself. The story thus symbolically reflects the way in which life is brought forth through the addition of water to the land, and once it grows, water is required to bring plants to fruit. It also counsels balance and responsibility, nothing to excess.
Ninti, the title of Ninhursag, also means "the mother of all living", and was a title given to the later Hurrian goddess Kheba. This is also the title given in the Bible to Eve, the Hebrew and Aramaic Ḥawwah (חוה , who was made from the rib of Adam, in a strange reflection of the Sumerian myth, in which Adam not Enki walks in the Garden of Paradise.[17]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enki