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Tue Apr 16, 2019, 08:24 AM

China and the Catholic Church -- Yesterday, Today and Tomorrow

http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/china-and-the-catholic-church-yesterday-today-and-tomorrow

...The Vatican had hoped that the September agreement with China would pave the way to greater unity between the underground Catholic Church (recognized by Rome but apparently still illegal in China) and the state-sponsored Chinese Patriotic Catholic Association.

Among the provisions of the agreement made public, Pope Francis has recognized seven Chinese bishops illicitly but validly consecrated and appointed them to dioceses in China. The Pope and the Chinese government both recognize all bishops currently appointed in China.

...The history of the Church in China reveals both promise and frustration, and the current relations between China and the Church seem to pick up where the Christian missionaries of the eighth, 10th and 17th century left off — with an intricate dance of clashing cultures and heightened concern for the tensions between the Church and the Chinese government.

...“Anything that is not completely registered with the Chinese government is deemed an illicit activity,” said (Steven) Mosher (president of the Population Research Council), who in 1979 became the first American social scientist since the Cultural Revolution to be granted permission to conduct anthropological research in mainland China. “The punishment for such activity is to have your money confiscated, the building you’re operating in confiscated or torn down, and to have the leaders of that illicit activity arrested.”


The whole article is kind of long and does a pretty good job summarizing the history of the RCC in China. Ignorant, agenda-driven statements like "the Chinese government persecutes theists" clearly fail to portray the actual situation in China. Theists and atheists who pose no threat to the state are not persecuted. Theists and atheists who do, are. Belief in gods has far less to do with what's going on there than does opposition to the goals and power of the government.

51 replies, 1381 views

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Arrow 51 replies Author Time Post
Reply China and the Catholic Church -- Yesterday, Today and Tomorrow (Original post)
trotsky Apr 2019 OP
MineralMan Apr 2019 #1
trotsky Apr 2019 #2
guillaumeb Apr 2019 #4
MineralMan Apr 2019 #5
guillaumeb Apr 2019 #8
MineralMan Apr 2019 #12
guillaumeb Apr 2019 #13
guillaumeb Apr 2019 #3
trotsky Apr 2019 #6
guillaumeb Apr 2019 #10
guillaumeb Apr 2019 #14
trotsky Apr 2019 #18
guillaumeb Apr 2019 #15
trotsky Apr 2019 #19
guillaumeb Apr 2019 #23
trotsky Apr 2019 #29
Major Nikon Apr 2019 #16
trotsky Apr 2019 #20
Major Nikon Apr 2019 #21
guillaumeb Apr 2019 #26
trotsky Apr 2019 #31
guillaumeb Apr 2019 #34
trotsky Apr 2019 #39
guillaumeb Apr 2019 #41
trotsky Apr 2019 #45
Major Nikon Apr 2019 #44
Major Nikon Apr 2019 #43
trotsky Apr 2019 #47
guillaumeb Apr 2019 #22
guillaumeb Apr 2019 #24
trotsky Apr 2019 #33
trotsky Apr 2019 #48
trotsky Apr 2019 #51
guillaumeb Apr 2019 #36
trotsky Apr 2019 #40
guillaumeb Apr 2019 #42
trotsky Apr 2019 #46
guillaumeb Apr 2019 #49
trotsky Apr 2019 #50
MineralMan Apr 2019 #7
guillaumeb Apr 2019 #9
MineralMan Apr 2019 #11
Duppers Apr 2019 #17
guillaumeb Apr 2019 #25
MineralMan Apr 2019 #27
guillaumeb Apr 2019 #28
MineralMan Apr 2019 #30
guillaumeb Apr 2019 #35
MineralMan Apr 2019 #37
guillaumeb Apr 2019 #38
trotsky Apr 2019 #32

Response to trotsky (Original post)

Tue Apr 16, 2019, 09:45 AM

1. The RCC considers itself to be superior in all things.

It insists that its ways are the correct ones, and ignores the cultures it wishes to convert. That has been its pattern from the very beginning. The result is always conflict between the goals of the church and those of the local culture and government.

By claiming to be correct and infallible, it fails in places that already have a stable cultural system in place. China, Japan, India and other parts of Asia have cultures that predate Christianity. No wonder they resist foreign cultural invasion.

The Ugly Westerner at work.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #1)

Tue Apr 16, 2019, 10:04 AM

2. Correct, this is a deep cultural conflict.

To chalk it up as "China is oppressing theists" is ignorant indeed.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #1)

Tue Apr 16, 2019, 12:34 PM

4. which, ironically enough, is the demonstrated pattern of the current

Chinese Government.

Ironic, is it not, that even when theists are not running the government that a government can demonstrate the same pattern of repression and intolerance.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #4)

Tue Apr 16, 2019, 12:45 PM

5. China has its own culture.

Last edited Tue Apr 16, 2019, 02:09 PM - Edit history (1)

Roman Catholicism is not that culture. The RCC has been trying to convert Chinese people for centuries. Where does it obtain the right to do that, do you suppose?

It also tried to convert the Chumash peoples in California. Instead, it killed them all, one way or another, so that there are none left today. Perhaps that was the true goal, eh? All that is left of the Chumash are artifacts. The Mission in San Luis Obispo, CA, has a very large collection of those on display in its museum, but there are no Chumash people left to explain them.

That story is repeated again and again in multiple places that already had a culture when the RCC came and forced its culture on indigenous people. If they objected, they were exterminated. The story of genocide in the name of Jesus is a long, long, repetitive story.

It tried to do that in China, too, and is still apparently trying to do that. Again, where does the right to do so come from?

It's no wonder that China seeks to remove the influence of non-Chinese religious groups from its country. Chinese culture predates Christianity by millennia.

Feh!



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Response to MineralMan (Reply #5)

Tue Apr 16, 2019, 04:33 PM

8. A "culture" of intolerance?

And China has expanded to include Tibet and areas to the west that were already occupied by other, non-Han Chinese people.

Your reply sounds like an attempt to excuse intolerance because of supposed cultural influences.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #8)

Tue Apr 16, 2019, 04:49 PM

12. Oh, dear...

You have missed the point again, I'm afraid. Oh, well...

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #12)

Tue Apr 16, 2019, 04:52 PM

13. Someone has.

That explains your rather puzzling response.

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Response to trotsky (Original post)

Tue Apr 16, 2019, 12:32 PM

3. Concentration camps that "just happen" to only contain theists

are proof enough, for those who have no agenda, that the Chinese Government, run by atheists, singles out theists for persecution because they are theists.

And when the persecution includes being criminalized for the crime of praying, it is abundantly clear, for those who wish to see, that the crime is being an open theist.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #3)

Tue Apr 16, 2019, 12:46 PM

6. It is clear you did not read the article.

Your viewpoint is terribly misinformed. I'm sorry.

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Response to trotsky (Reply #6)

Tue Apr 16, 2019, 04:35 PM

10. I am sorry that your article does not support what you want it to do.

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Response to trotsky (Reply #6)

Tue Apr 16, 2019, 04:53 PM

14. From your article:

Since at least December 2018, not three months after signing its agreement with the Vatican, Beijing has increased religious persecution as it seeks to “Sinicize” religion in the country. In the western part of the country, China watchers believe that about a million Uyghur Muslims are being held in concentration camps and the government has removed Islamic symbols from mosques in the region.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #14)

Wed Apr 17, 2019, 07:32 AM

18. Yes but that doesn't support your claim.

I am sorry you have having such difficulty understanding the subject.

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Response to trotsky (Reply #6)

Tue Apr 16, 2019, 04:57 PM

15. And, there was this, from well into the article:

Since that time, in the wake of the Communist Revolution of 1949, China has embraced pure atheism, and the Church, guided by the Second Vatican Council, has sought a more open dialogue with the modern world.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #15)

Wed Apr 17, 2019, 07:32 AM

19. Yes, but that also does not support your claim.

I am truly sorry you are experiencing such a challenge grasping the situation.

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Response to trotsky (Reply #19)

Wed Apr 17, 2019, 12:40 PM

23. A new strategy?

It is not working, mainly because the actual article rebuts your claim.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #23)

Wed Apr 17, 2019, 01:02 PM

29. Nope, same strategy I've always used with you.

Pointing out your errors.

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Response to trotsky (Reply #6)

Tue Apr 16, 2019, 06:11 PM

16. Not so much misinformed as duplicitous

As demonstrated by the hyperbolic "concentration camp" reference.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #16)

Wed Apr 17, 2019, 07:34 AM

20. Deliberate muddying of the waters.

Does the Chinese government persecute SOME theists? Yes.

Does it persecute ALL theists? No.

Does it persecute SOME atheists? Yes.

Does it persecute ALL atheists? No.

The very simple reality is that it goes after people who are a threat, regardless of their theism or atheism. Certain people need to have a different narrative be true though, and so they'll happily look like fools in order to defend that narrative to the bitter end.

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Response to trotsky (Reply #20)

Wed Apr 17, 2019, 12:17 PM

21. And somehow Chinese atheists persecuting people is a "counterpoint" to RCC priests raping children

Child rape apologists gonna whatabout.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #21)

Wed Apr 17, 2019, 12:45 PM

26. Another old, and unsubstantiated, accusation.

Ad hominem is much favored by some.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #26)

Wed Apr 17, 2019, 01:14 PM

31. No you admitted it yourself.

There's real evidence (screenshots) to prove it. Shall we post them again?

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Response to trotsky (Reply #31)

Wed Apr 17, 2019, 03:33 PM

34. Yawn.

Are you the new designated spokesperson?

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #34)

Wed Apr 17, 2019, 03:51 PM

39. What is that supposed to mean? n/t

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Response to trotsky (Reply #39)

Wed Apr 17, 2019, 04:57 PM

41. Really?

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #41)

Thu Apr 18, 2019, 07:30 AM

45. Yes, explain your attempted smear. n/t

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Response to trotsky (Reply #39)

Wed Apr 17, 2019, 06:51 PM

44. Ad hominem, obviously

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Response to trotsky (Reply #31)

Wed Apr 17, 2019, 06:50 PM

43. It's not as if the duplicity is that hard to prove

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #43)

Thu Apr 18, 2019, 07:47 AM

47. It's nice he helps discredit himself so much. n/t

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #16)

Wed Apr 17, 2019, 12:38 PM

22. "Hyperbolic" concentration camps?

Tell that to the inmates.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #16)

Wed Apr 17, 2019, 12:42 PM

24. Are you calling me a liar?

Duplicitous:

ADJECTIVE
deceitful.
"treacherous, duplicitous behavior"
synonyms:
dishonest · untruthful · lying · mendacious · insincere · false · deceiving · dissembling · disingenuous · untrustworthy · unscrupulous · unprincipled · two-faced · duplicitous · double-dealing · cheating · underhand · crafty · cunning · sly · guileful · scheming · calculating · conniving · designing · hypocritical · perfidious · treacherous · Machiavellian · Janus-faced · sneaky · tricky · foxy · crooked · sharp · shady · shifty · slippery · bent · slim · subtle · hollow-hearted · false-hearted · double-faced · truthless · Punic
law
(of a charge or plea) containing more than one allegation.

Some cannot resist ad hominem attacks.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #24)

Wed Apr 17, 2019, 01:30 PM

33. Well g, let's look at the evidence.

You claim the Chinese government is persecuting theists for only being theists. You are saying that "being a theist" is their only "crime", correct?

Please confirm that this is your position, or state your actual position for analysis.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #24)

Thu Apr 18, 2019, 07:48 AM

48. Still waiting. n/t

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #24)

Fri Apr 19, 2019, 07:43 AM

51. Still waiting. n/t

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #16)

Wed Apr 17, 2019, 03:39 PM

36. It is so very easy to ignore repression and intolerance from a place of privilege.

Agreed?

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #36)

Wed Apr 17, 2019, 03:52 PM

40. ...said the religious believer, without a hint of awareness about the irony. n/t

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Response to trotsky (Reply #40)

Wed Apr 17, 2019, 04:58 PM

42. Are you unaware of your own western privilege?

Does it allow you to ignore the suffering of Uighur theists?

One hopes not.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #42)

Thu Apr 18, 2019, 07:39 AM

46. #Whataboutism n/t

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Response to trotsky (Reply #46)

Thu Apr 18, 2019, 11:06 AM

49. Avoidance.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #49)

Thu Apr 18, 2019, 11:42 AM

50. Yes, that's what you use whataboutism for.

Thanks for confirming.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #3)

Tue Apr 16, 2019, 12:47 PM

7. I wonder if they are similar to the labor camps the Spanish

set up in California, led by Franciscan friars, where forced labor by indigenous people like the Chumash people was used to build the Roman Catholic Missions there? What do you think? Do you suppose the Priests of those missions were concerned with the welfare of the indigenous people? I guess not, since they were exterminated by violence and disease. None remain today, thanks to Fr. Junipero Serra and his merry band.

And Pope Francis made Fr. Serra a saint. Imagine that! The RCC's legacy is one of genocide and enslavement. Francis is part of a centuries old line of Popes. The line is continuous. In making Serra a saint, he continued the horror.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #7)

Tue Apr 16, 2019, 04:35 PM

9. Whataboutism? eom

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #9)

Tue Apr 16, 2019, 04:48 PM

11. Nope.

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Response to trotsky (Original post)

Tue Apr 16, 2019, 06:20 PM

17. Thank you!

"Ignorant, agenda-driven statements like "the Chinese government persecutes theists" clearly fail to portray the actual situation in China.
...
Belief in gods has far less to do with what's going on there than does opposition to the goals and power of the government."



Bravo!

Spent time there and know your statements are 100% correct.

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Response to Duppers (Reply #17)

Wed Apr 17, 2019, 12:45 PM

25. And have you researched the concentration camps fror Uighurs?

But I know the Chinese Government prefers the term "re-education camps".

And are you fluent in Chinese and the Uighur variant of Turkic that is spoken by the Uighurs?

And did you speak of these issues with any actual Uighurs?

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #25)

Wed Apr 17, 2019, 12:55 PM

27. Are you fluent in those languages?

Or are you just finding stories online to share with us?

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #27)

Wed Apr 17, 2019, 12:57 PM

28. Are you the person who wrote the response?

Or are you just finding stories online to share with us?

I await the response from Duppers.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #28)

Wed Apr 17, 2019, 01:11 PM

30. It's a public forum. It's a public thread. I post as I please here.

Please don't suggest that I not do that. Thanks.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #30)

Wed Apr 17, 2019, 03:34 PM

35. So copying your own response to me was wrong?

Understood. The double standard is blatant.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #35)

Wed Apr 17, 2019, 03:39 PM

37. No. I was asking you the same question you asked

The other person. You did not answer, which all the answer I need. The person you addressed your question to apparently has some experience in China. You do not. Nor do you speak either language. You depend on the accounts of others.

My point was made. You're was not.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #37)

Wed Apr 17, 2019, 03:42 PM

38. The other person made a statement.

And I asked for background that would give that person the ability to make such a statement.

You missed my point. Understood.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #28)

Wed Apr 17, 2019, 01:15 PM

32. Ooh here's another response of yours to bookmark.

This will be helpful to use against you in the future. Thanks.

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