Why religion won't be going away any time soon

[GliderGuider]

In fact, it's probably going to get stronger - perhaps much stronger - over the next 50 years. Here's why I think that's probable.

Modern human civilization is getting close to two significant tipping points: growing planetary-scale ecological devastation on a number of fronts, and global economic instability. These problems appear to be converging and colliding right now. If the various factors that are feeding these issues interact in ways that seem increasingly probable, they will result in spreading food and energy shortages and interlinked national economic collapses. Some watchers (me among them) see a growing potential for the fall of our global industrial civilization, starting about now and playing out over the next century.

Even if the whole enterprise stays more or less afloat, more and more states are going to fail. And one of the salient characteristics of failed states is the growth of xenophobic, authoritarian religions. We saw this in pre-war Germany, and we're seeing it now in the Middle East and parts of Africa.

Depending on the severity of the decline, we may now be living in the peak moment for liberal religions and secularism. The United States is probably past the peak already.

Liberalism and secularism depend on social order. Neither thrives in chaos. Personally, as a largely secular uber-liberal I find this prospect terrifying, but I don't yet see much we can do to hold back the tide.

[SoutherDem]

1. Humans have always needed the comfort of a greater power

and an easy answer to life.

Religion has been with us almost since humans have been self aware. The various religions may go away but something always takes its place.

[WingDinger]

13. Those are miniscule compared to the need for a sweet by and by, that supercedes this life.

So, no matter what happens here, you still have forever.

Add in some ancestor worship elements and you have the heart of man.

[rrneck]

2. The bulk of our material existence

is larded with unnecessary crap. I think the bulk of our emotional lives are also, due to our wealth, also unnecessary. Most of our emotional responses, including religion, are just entertainment.

It will ne interesting to see how much of which we get to keep and how much we need to use to survive.

[patrice]

3. The fact that the "wiring" is there in the first place is evidence of functionality of somesort.

Can we agree to differentiate religion and what for lack of a more widely recognized label is referred to as spirituality?

Despite the errors and outright evil generated in the relevant cognitive sub-sets, I think we should at least ask ourselves questions about the relationships between spirituality and other cognitive functions, especially creativity, and also intuition, somethings we are going to need a LOT of in coming years.

[patrice]

4. For example: When I say I am praying for someone, I am telling them that I am -in-forming myself

in such a manner as to make my actions more coherent in support of them and their efforts. That's a useful physical cognitive event, or a set of them actually.

I think there's a great deal about our problems, including the environment and economics, that can be related to personal incoherence.

[daaron]

12. Except that the most reliable study of prayer, the STEP study -->

found that when the subject knows that others are praying for them, they take on average longer to recuperate than if either nobody is praying for them, or they don't know anyone is praying for them. In other words, prayer does nothing at all in and of itself, and is likely to be harmful if the person being prayed for knows it.

It's a downward spiral - prayer is a negative feedback loop at worst, and a waste of time at best. Glad it makes the prayerful feel like they did something; at least it's serving some purpose, if just to feed one's delusions and prop up one's failing ego.

[cbayer]

5. Agree that distinctions need to be made and understood.

Part of the problem we run into is that the language seems stale and unable to describe the various POV's around both religion and spirituality.

[patrice]

6. Language again. It's kind of funny isn't it!! "In the beginning was the word . . . "

But then, we are thinking about -in-forming here . . .

so that shouldn't be past tense "... WAS the word." Present tense "is" suggests that this is going to have to be individually discovered words, more voices, more grammars.

Any suggestions for sources that point in a useful direction for this?

[cbayer]

7. A few months ago, there were a couple of articles posted in this group

about this subject.

I'm not able to search them down right now, but we had some good conversations about the need to develop better language.

Even the words atheist and theist don't adequately convey what people often mean.

[patrice]

8. I will take a look into that.

I want to finish some other reading that I am doing now first, but it would also be interesting to get a day-pass to the American Psychological Association's online research databases and see what the specialists are saying about this subject.

[GliderGuider]

10. Yes, the differentiation is essential.

IMO "religion" is a social construct, while "spirituality" is essentially personal.

I think religion is going to metastasize as civilization falls, as the underpinnings of society fail. It can hardly do otherwise - religious structures and their attendant social beliefs (the social "superstructure" in the terms used by Marx and anthropologist Marvin Harris) are strongly influenced by changes in the biophysical underpinnings of society (the "infrastructure&quot . As the infrastructure erodes and crumbles, the superstructure adapts in malignant ways.

Spirituality isn't as much of a social structure, so it's less likely to be affected by the changes.

[patrice]

14. I feel certain that you are correct. Had someone at my door yesterday, selling home-alarm systems...

AND mormon.org at the same time. How unusual is that? SALES + Religion.

That was only the second time I have ever experienced anything like that. The first time was several weeks ago when another home-alarm systems sales rep told me about how our local AFP queen Kay OConnor says there's going to be an increase in break ins etc in our area (the same line used by the young Hispanic male at my door yesterday).

[Darkhawk32]

9. Religion will grow stronger in extremism...........

but not in number. As agnostics/atheists numbers grow larger over the years, religious followers will grow more desperate and grow more unstable in their beliefs. I believe that one day in the next century, it will a 50/50 split between the two groups, at least here in this country.

[daaron]

11. Yup. As I said in another thread: "We're fucked."

Might as well start training for the Final Battle before Armageddon, now. As in, "Armageddon outta here." I hear the south of France is nice this time of year. I will miss being a patriot; my mom's side of the family came over on the Mayflower and my dad's side is where the John Adamses met the Jonathan Edwardses. But my country doesn't want me, anymore. It would rather have Oily Taintz and Neil Munro than Caesar Chavez and MLK.

We're all entirely screwed. I'm not giving up yet, but just so you know, I'm damned discouraged.

[dimbear]

15. Demographics say no.

We're winning the young, that's the whole battle.

[cbayer]

16. I guess I should have, but I really didn't see this as a competitive sport.

[dimbear]

17. Let your mind drift back.... how often have you heard the word "winning" in a church? n/t

[cbayer]

18. Pretty much never.

[2ndAmForComputers]

19. Also, what Einstein said about two certain things being infinite.

And him not being sure about one of them, which was the Universe. I forget what the other was.

[GliderGuider]

20. Uncle Albert also apparently said this:

"I'm not an atheist. I don't think I can call myself a pantheist. The problem involved is too vast for our limited minds. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God. We see the universe marvelously arranged and obeying certain laws but only dimly understand these laws. Our limited minds grasp the mysterious force that moves the constellations."

[white_wolf]

22. Einstein's views are interesting.

I've also heard some people reference a quote from him where he says "Could such a magnificent symphony have no conductor?" However, my google search for that quote turned up in vain so I can't verify it. He also, apparently said of Buddhism:

"Buddhism has the characteristics of what would be expected in a cosmic religion for the future: It transcends a personal God, avoids dogmas and theology; it covers both the natural and spritual; and it is based on a religious sense aspiring from the experience of all things, natural and spiritual, as a meaningful unity."

And: "If there is any religion that would cope with modern scientific needs it would be Buddhism"

[GliderGuider]

23. I agree with Einstein about Buddhism

It's one of the most universally accessible of all the large socially organized spiritual streams out there. And it has been taken in so many diverse directions, from Thich Nhat Hanh's engaged Zen to Osho's radical Tantra. I'm too much of a spiritual anarchist to ever actually be a Buddhist, but it's one of my foundation-stones. Simply realizing that liberation from suffering was possible changed my life, as it has for so many others.

[2ndAmForComputers]

24. And this:

''I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious, then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.''

And this:

''I have repeatedly said that in my opinion the idea of a personal God is a child like one."

[GliderGuider]

25. I agree with Einstein there too.

How remarkable to agree with Einstein!

[cynatnite]

21. I don't expect it to get stronger...

but I don't expect there to ever be a time when it does not exist.