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Blue Owl

(49,397 posts)
2. Waiting for Godot
Mon Sep 17, 2012, 03:38 PM
Sep 2012

"Stay scared, keep waiting, and remember to VOTE GOP!"

-- Sincerely, The Evangelical Right

patrice

(47,992 posts)
4. Interesting that you should mention Beckett, because one of these pastors mentions
Mon Sep 17, 2012, 03:50 PM
Sep 2012

Deconstruction, which is just a hop, skip, and a jump from Absurdist literature, both areas that I was into in my under-grad work and which I think have specific relevance to some very big communications issues in the USA.

That's just one of the reasons I want to study this video a little closer; I'm interested in cognition and language.

Gotta go to the grocery store right now, though.

sasha031

(6,700 posts)
3. I watched part of it earlier, hard to get through &very disturbing
Mon Sep 17, 2012, 03:45 PM
Sep 2012

Bad news is good news with these people, they need to be isolated from all society.

patrice

(47,992 posts)
8. That bit about the "righteous" being ready really freaks this old
Mon Sep 17, 2012, 05:42 PM
Sep 2012

liberated-Catholic out too. I'm not sure when that assumption that you're saved crept in there, but it takes for granted the whole Christ thing and you can justify ANY behavior whatsoever as long as you are baptized and "born again" or whatever. It's ir-responsible, immature, childish, and profoundly dangerous.

sasha031

(6,700 posts)
11. and horrible cruel & selfish
Mon Sep 17, 2012, 06:52 PM
Sep 2012

they seem to delight in their fantasy they will be saved while everyone else burns on earth.
The rapture ready link I provided, (I haven't checked it out in yrs, not sure if it's still there)
But they had pics of the mansions they are going to live in, when they leave this world.

What watch & follow world news on the link, as I said bad news is good news for them.

patrice

(47,992 posts)
12. Delight. You're right, sasha, it is like a physical addiction to self gratification.
Mon Sep 17, 2012, 09:52 PM
Sep 2012

I looked at that link and was wondering how they came up with the point system. How objective is that?

I couldn't stand to stay long enough to find the pictures of the mansions, but I will try again.

patrice

(47,992 posts)
9. I can never figure out where they think Jesus went. In their theology, he's God, right? i.e. always
Mon Sep 17, 2012, 05:59 PM
Sep 2012

true in all times all places, all powerful, all knowing, omni-present. That's what a "God" is, right? so if Jesus isn't here, he must not be God.

There's an interesting bit in this video where one preacher says the problem is that The Bible is no longer being rationally interpreted, but is being mystically interpreted instead. Rationally interpreting The Bible not only doesn't hold up to rationalism, but what's their thing about "faith" and "belief"? This video, and I imagine lots of sermons, are FULL of explanations, their reasoning; isn't that the opposite of their emphasis upon what faith is?

 

dballance

(5,756 posts)
10. So if God and Jesus are these all-knowing controlling beings?
Mon Sep 17, 2012, 06:34 PM
Sep 2012

Why do they care about this one little place, Temple on the Mount? Won't God be able to rapture all their follower's without them being there?

Sure symbology is nice but if you are Lord of the Universe it seems a little egotistical to expect your followers from around the world to travel to Israel and be at either Megiddo or the Temple Mount for battle. Once you rapture a lot of the airline pilots and ship captains that's going to be tough.

Okay, so the temple was built there. It was a display of worship and pride as it should have been.

Fast forward to current times. I don't know about you but my Southern Baptist minister always taught us God was not found in the building. He was found in the hearts of people who came together there to worship. They were the people who put God in the building.

Yep, that is a whole culturally different thought concept than when the temple was built. I know that.

But it is 2012.

patrice

(47,992 posts)
13. One of the absolutely finest persons I have ever known is Southern Baptist. She loves The Bible too
Mon Sep 17, 2012, 10:06 PM
Sep 2012

but it's a very personal experience for her, so you'd never know unless you happened to ask.

She's a nurse and a very good one too!

I like your observation about the Temple on the Mount and putting God in a house/box. There is so much about this that doesn't seem to work. It seems so childish, even all of the way up to these horrific events that, guess what!, presto chango, abbracadabbra!, turn out to not be that seriously dangerous to certain people.

I have actually heard that mythology at people's front doors when I used to canvass for a freeze on nuclear weapons production and arms control. A few times, people actually told me that I shouldn't worry about nuclear war, because we could go all of the way right up to and including "pushing the button" (turning 2 keys, actually, back in those days) and NOTHING WOULD HAPPEN, because God loves us and Jesus will prevent the bombs from exploding.

Frightened children, afraid to consider true possibilities.

jeepnstein

(2,631 posts)
14. The whole Rapture thing...
Tue Sep 18, 2012, 07:38 AM
Sep 2012

is widely and hotly debated in some circles of Christianity. The Book of Revelation doesn't make it sound like we are going to be spared. As a matter of fact it goes out of it's way to remind us that we need to remain steadfast in the face of what is coming. The one mention of being taken up into the clouds in Thessalonians is far from the last word on the subject. It would appear when taken into context it is just a reminder that the dead will rise again on the Day of Judgment. It doesn't give any indication of what order of events will take place before or after that event. So teaching that believers will be spared torment when they are raptured away is most likely completely wrong.

1Thessalonians 4:13-18

Believers Who Have Died

13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

The only thing the Bible really promises is that eventually we will not be eternally separated from God when the world ceases to exist. It also makes it very clear we, as believers, are to expect hardship and even persecution. And we are somehow expected to remain firm in our faith. It doesn't tell us who, what, where, when, but it does say why. For anyone who needs literal and solid answers this is a real challenge.

That's why some people go through all sorts of mental gymnastics to make God conform to their world view. And some of those people are teaching doctrine that is simply nowhere to be found in the New Testament. The biggest challenge to Christianity comes from within it's own ranks. It's been that way since the First Century and it will be that way until the end.

SarahM32

(270 posts)
16. There's another way to look at it.
Tue Sep 18, 2012, 04:58 PM
Sep 2012

Jeep,

I'd like to write at length about that, but I'll just say a few things.

First, Paul erred in many ways in his assumption that he understood both Jewish scriptures and the teachings of Jesus. For one thing, Paul thought the "end" was imminent and he was trying to prepare people for it. But the world did not end, and it won't.

Remember, Jesus of Nazareth spoke of the end of the age (aeon) he ushered in as the time when the world would see the signs signaling that the coming of the son of man was near -- the time when his prophecies and of all preceding prophets would be fulfilled -- the time when a divine revelation and divinely inspired judgement would resolve the conflicts and enable humanity to make peace, enable the meek to inherit the earth, transform "swords into plowshares," and establish a new family of nations with cooperating systems of government so that the world will "last forever, never to be destroyed."

That is what the real, true prophecies of all the world's religions say. The books of Daniel and John's Revelation both say the world will "last forever, never to be destroyed." Christians should read Daniel 2:44; Daniel 7:14; Isaiah 2:4; Micah 4:3; Psalm 104:5; Matthew 5:3-9; John 16 verses 7-15; Revelation 11:15, etc.

There are some relevant articles on that. One is It's the End of an Age, and the other is The Future.
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SarahM32

(270 posts)
15. The Actual Prophecies of Jesus vs "Christian" Myths (like the "Rapture," Armageddon, etc.)
Tue Sep 18, 2012, 04:39 PM
Sep 2012

According the the source I believe, the actual prophecies of Jesus of Nazareth are consistent with the prophecies in the Hebrew Torah and Tanakh, especially the book of Isaiah.

The actual prophecies of Isaiah and Jesus have nothing to do with a literal "second coming," or "rapture," or "final holy war." And the person who fulfills the prophecies is not Jesus himself. He is a servant of God, from our midst, of our brethren, and a prophet who, like Jacob, struggles with God.

In an article Prophecies Re: He Who Fulfills Them there are many prophecies quoted and clarified, and there are several supporting articles including Isaiah Chapter 53, About Christianity, The Second Coming Story, The Virgin Birth Story, The Resurrection Story, The Martyrdom of Jesus, The Rapture Myth, and others.

To give you an idea, here are just a couple of quotes, with explanations from the article.

"The days will come when people will want to see one of the days of the son of man, and they shall not see it. So they will look here and there, but do not follow them. For as the lightning lightens all parts under heaven, so shall also the [work of the] son of man be in his day. But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected by his generation." (Luke 17:20-25)

The article on Prophecies states that Jesus was not speaking of himself in that instance, because Jesus suffered only on the last day of his life, not first or beforehand, but only after he had completed his mission. Furthermore, Jesus was accepted by multitudes of Jews, Greeks and others in his generation. Even the impartial Jewish historian Flavius Josephus reported that.

And, even if Jesus may have used the term “this generation” (as was reported in Luke), that term was used in several different instances referring not to that generation but ours, the generation of the modern son of man who comes at the end of the age Jesus ushered in.

It also says that with correct understanding of the prophets, including Jesus, you can see that Jesus was speaking of the next son of man whose message (work) is sent before him and can be seen in a flash, like lightning, all over the world (over the Internet).

Isaiah 42:1-4: "Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delights; I have put my spirit upon him, he shall make the right to go forth to the nations. He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. A bruised reed shall he not break, and the dimly burning wick shall he not quench. He shall make the right to go forth according to the truth. He shall not fail nor be crushed, till he have set the right in the earth; and the isles shall wait for his teaching."

The article on Prophecies notes that many Christians believe that too speaks of Jesus because Matthew 12:19 claims it does. But it clearly does not. That is one of many blatant errors in the official Christian canon.

It speaks of the modern son of man, because Jesus did rise up as a teacher-orator. He did cry out to make his voice heard on many occasions, and he certainly did cause his voice to be heard in the street. Even Matthew 4:25 states: "Great multitudes followed Him, from Galilee, and from Decapolis, Jerusalem, Judea, and beyond the Jordan." Matthew 13:14 states: "Hearing of this, the crowds followed him on foot from the towns." Luke 14:25 states that: "Great multitudes went with him, and he turned to them and said..."

Those are but a few parts of the story of Jesus that make it very clear that he spoke to the multitudes who followed him during his travels on foot, on the roads and streets.

Remember, Jesus warned of hypocrites, false shepherds and false prophets. He said they would be deceiving even the "elect." He said the hypocrites would be claiming that they are doing "many wonderful works in the name of the Lord" when they actually lead their blind flocks astray.

But the truth will come out. The truth will prevail. But first it will be rejected and fought tooth and nail.
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