"You will know them by their friuts"

[Thats my opinion]

Here are a few things I know about first hand and are not simply speculative or made up.

Question: A family faces hard times. The mother is a part-time house cleaner who earns less than minimum wage. The father hasn’t had a job for a year. In almost every community in the United States where can they go for some help for groceries?

Answer: Groups of churches have banded together to provide food supplies. In the community where I live, churches care for several hundred families every week. Most of the food is collected weekly from congregations. Nothing is sold.

Question: Children in scores of families are ashamed to go to school because they have no decent clothes. Where are clothes outlets where they can be cared for?

Answer: In every community I know anything about, churches or a collection of churches provide good clothing that is given away to anyone in need.

Question: Skid Rows across the nation are the homes for thousands of the forgotten. Where can these desperate people find a safe place to sleep?

Answer: in most of these communities the Salvation Army—a religious organization—as well as other church sponsored bodies offer places to escape the tyranny of the streets. In most cases there is no religious test and no compulsory church service.

Question: In blighted neighborhoods poor people are at the mercy of slumlords. Who offers the legal services necessary for them to secure their rights?

Answer: In the city I know best the poverty law center provides attorneys ready to advocate for the defenseless. This center was begun by a devout Catholic woman, herself an attorney.

Question: Where can the nobodies in our city find basic medical care?

Answer: The same organization that offers legal help now is staffed by a score of newly licensed MDs who want to work with the poor but cannot afford to do so because of medical school debts. This religious organization pays their educational expenses and offers placements in a series of clinics in the toughest parts of the city.

Question: What is the most effective organization working to free young men and women from the gangs?

Answer: It is called “Home Boy Industries” which was begun and is still led by a catholic priest.

This just a small sample of what is happening all across the country.
If we judge people by what they do, perhaps we need to celebrate and thank these and a multitude of other religious groups for their dedication. None of these groups use what they do for recruitment or doctrinal sales-pitches, but just because their faith demands compassionate action.

I don’t know what the non-religious do, but I would be wide-open to celebrating a similar list.

[SheilaT]

1. The non-religous,

and I'm one of them, often volunteer to work with those very organizations.

And while they are all admirable, and really do very good work, there are still millions of our citizens who are hungry or homeless or cannot get adequate, on-going medical care, or legal help.

I am not saying we should trash or get rid of those organizations, but they are often just a drop in the bucket for what's needed.

[Fortinbras Armstrong]

6. That touches on why government got into social welfare

Private charities, which for the most part do yeoman work, were simply unable to provide help for everyone who needed it.

This is one of the main gripes I have with libertarians. Here is a quote from the Libertarian Party of New Jersey's Platform

Individuals who are unable to fully support themselves and their families through the job market must learn to rely on supportive family, religious institution, community, or private charity to bridge the gap.

We support repeal of minimum wage laws, mandatory state unemployment insurance and disability insurance, so-called “protective labor” legislation for women and children, and governmental restrictions on the operation of private day-care centers.

We should eliminate the government’s role in the social-welfare system, including AFDC, DYFS, Food Stamps, and subsidized housing.

Whoever wrote this is apparently unaware of why these programs were initiated in the first place: To deal with real problems in the real world.

[Thats my opinion]

10. While religious groups ae often good on compassion and charity,

they are often not very good at justice--which has to do with changing the system. One of my heroes, a Brazilian Bishop, said, "When I feed the hungry they call me a saint. When I ask why they are hungry they cal me a Communist."

The larger problems will not be solved by compassion--that is only a start--but must be the responsibility of all the people--and that means government

[onager]

2. "I don’t know what the non-religious do..."

Just a wild guess, but you could probably Google "secular charities" and find out what we do.

Here's a pretty big list:

http://www.squidoo.com/Atheist-Charities

One of the biggest non-religious charitable organizations is Foundation Beyond Belief:

http://foundationbeyondbelief.org/

And for the Usual Suspects who like to sneer at old, privileged, wealthy white atheist biologists, from July 2012:

Richard Dawkins Encourages Atheists To Raise $1,000,000 for Charity

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2012/07/09/richard-dawkins-encourages-atheists-to-raise-1000000-for/

[rug]

4. Consinsidering your view on Atheism+, you must agree that is coincidental.

There is nothing inherent in atheism that promotes charity.

[Fortinbras Armstrong]

9. No, charity is promoted by decent human beings

There is nothing in atheism that deters one from being a decent human being.

Some years ago, I had an argument with an evangelical Christian who insisted that one could not develop a true moral system which did not have God at its base. I gave him examples of ethical systems, such as utilitarianism and Aristotle's Nicomachean Ethics, which are wholly untheistic. That theistic versions of these ethical systems do exist -- Thomas Aquinas based his ethical teachings on Aristotle -- is wholly immaterial. What it finally came down to was that the man I was arguing with insisted that any meaningful ethical system had to be one that he, personally, approved of. I ended the discussion by saying that the universe does not revolve around him.

[Thats my opinion]

11. Thanks for the info. nt

[Thats my opinion]

17. I was really asking where the desperate can go in their own communities.

Where can they get help in the one where you live?

[LAGC]

3. Shouldn't government be providing most of those services you mentioned?

The only reason churches need to be involved at all is because of the gaping vacuum of lack of public services for individuals and families in need.

My grandfather was a very religious man, and even he quit tithing as much money to the church as he got older, seeing the government get more involved in taking care of the needy.

I don't see any reason why we need church-run hospitals or homeless shelters, when a small local government tax would do.

[Thats my opinion]

12. of course you are correct. See my first response.

Probably the basic reason religious people do these things is because it is their nature! That may be central to what it means to be a Christian. Thankfully, scads of non-religious people do the same things, but not being organized in groups, the administration tends to be spotty..

[edhopper]

5. I will grant the point

that many churches and many religious folk do good in their community and help people.
Many secular organizations do too.
Does this in any way give any credence to the theological beliefs at the base of these religions?
Does this have any bearing on whether or not there is a God, or the divinity of Jesus?

It's very good that people want to help other people, like Planned Parenthood wanting to help woman with their healthcare.
Or Habitat for Humanity wanting to help build people homes. Both have religious and non religious people working together in a secular org.

What point are you trying to make, other than some people help other people.

In the current political arena, I see the Party dominated by Christian religious fundamentalist as the ones who think we should not spending money on the poor and see the needy as moochers.

I see the more secular Party, the ones who did not want God in their platform as wanting to help the poor give things like "healthcare, food, housing, you name it" to the less fortunate.

[Thats my opinion]

13. I doubt if this can be reduced to doctrines--as you suggest.

Quite apart from doctrines, for many Christians such acts are a categorical imperative. They don't do these things in order to become Christians, but because they already are. It is the nature of people who follow Jesus, apart from doctrines.

Your last comment about the Party dominated by fundamentalists is on target and is a disgrace, considering what Jesus was all about.

[edhopper]

15. Then the question should be asked

Which is more noble,

Those that do good things because their God commands and it will keep them in his graces. Helping them enter heaven?

Or those who say we are alone on this planet and help each other because that is the type of Earth they think humanity give each other?

I wasn't reducing it to doctrines, I was asking if you were using these examples to defend religious people (which it does IMO) or religion itself (which it does not).

[Thats my opinion]

18. Of course,

doing things for the reward is just a sales transaction. Doing things because faith has changed one's nature is very different. I am unable to separate religious people from the core of their religion--which is not doctrinal, but very much committed to human good.
There is something in good religion which produces a commission, having nothing to do with reward or punishment

[edhopper]

20. Thanks

thought that "faith changing one's nature" can be tricky.
Not always positive.

[Thats my opinion]

22. That's the great religious risk.

[trotsky]

21. The point he's trying to make, of course...

is the point that he's always trying to make: that religious people, and religious organizations, do more to help people and promote progressive issues than any non-believers or secular groups. If only us stupid, bull-headed atheists would acknowledge how important he and his fellow believers are!

What else can you expect from someone who thinks that no one would want to live in a society without an ethcial foundation based on religion?

[cleanhippie]

7. What is your point? Or is this just a hip-hip-hooray-for-relgion post?

Was this supposed to start a conversation about something?

[Evoman]

8. Who gives a shit what religious people do?

Be proud of what YOU DO.

If you help charities or found a charity, then be proud of yourself. But don't be too proud of your religious "brethren", I say....if you are gonna take credit for the good, you gotta take your lumps for all the shitty things christians do too.

Me? Well, I like christian charities....but the ones who don't preach to those they help. I also like the secular charities as well.....yeppers, they exist. But I'm not taking credit for the good other people do, and I'm sure as hell not going to try to make myself look good by claiming to be associated with them if I don't have my hands dirty from actually helping.

I try to do good. I'm in a tough spot right now, and it's financially drained me, but I'm still trying. I figure I can abstain from a cup of coffee every now and then so a kid can get vaccinations, medical help, food, and schooling. But I'm not going to pretend I'm as good as the people who are giving him the medical help....even if they do happen to believe the same bullshit I do.

[Thats my opinion]

16. Good for you! Everyone who adds to the whole effort to reach the outsiders and the neglected

has it right--regardless of any affiliation. My point is that people organized in groups can get things done in a broader scale than can individuals on their own.. Keep at what you do. it is important. My illustrations only asks to whom can specific people in our communities look when they are desperate. They can look to religious groups. Where else?

[Evoman]

19. Human beings need community, and yes we can do great things when we get together.

But it bothers me that this seems like a challenge on your part....for us to admit that religion is the primary means of making those groups and that secular people/groups aren't up to the challenge.

I don't agree with that. I think religion separates us and diminishes us, just as much as it brings us together. Maybe even more so. I don't believe for a second that if religion ceased to exist, that human beings could no longer group together to do great things.

A lot of times it seems that religion offers a cure for the very diseases it causes.

If even the least religious and the poorest of us are able to give up much needed resources so that others may live, then why do we even have strife. Why do we band together and forcibly take other peoples resource? Is it because they are other? And why are they other?

[rrneck]

14. It's just another market.

Ours is a service economy. Certain services are indispensable, like fire and police protection. Other services are part of the social contract that is as old as our species like the distribution of food and medical care. Religious organizations, as private entities, are privatizing government through their charitable activities.

Considering the fact that there is a millionaire corporate raider running for the office of president, and it is people like him who have made their millions plundering the public trust, advocating that same for your pet private interest presents a clear ideological conflict.

When people need help because of the failed economic policies of the right, aid from religious organizations is little more than disaster capitalism. The fact that conservative churches support such disasterous policies and liberal churches are quick to ballyhoo their charitable response reveals just how pernicious and complementary are their shared objectives.

People have to have the services provided by government. Private entities would like nothing better than to capitalize on that need. They would like nothing more than to be the sole supplier of an indispensable product. Privatizing government is a form of profiteering that is the sine qua non of fascism. When liberal churches lambast their conservative peers in the political arena while simultaneously trumpeting their own good works they are simply engaging in the same corporatist risk dispersion for profit as any other business.

The failure of religion is not unique or even unexpected. Religious organizations are doing what organizations of people have always done: ensure the survival and advancement of its members by capitalizing on available resources. The failure of religion is the failure of our species to manage abundance. There is no inspiration in an ideology that has proven itself to be as fallible and duplicitious as the evil it claims to overcome.