No God, not even Allah

[cbayer]

http://www.economist.com/news/international/21567059-ex-muslim-atheists-are-becoming-more-outspoken-tolerance-still-rare-no-god-not

Ex-Muslim atheists are becoming more outspoken, but tolerance is still rare
Nov 24th 2012 | BEIRUT



A MOB attacked Alexander Aan even before an Indonesian court in June jailed him for two and a half years for “inciting religious hatred”. His crime was to write “God does not exist” on a Facebook group he had founded for atheists in Minang, a province of the world’s most populous Muslim nation. Like most non-believers in Islamic regions, he was brought up as a Muslim. And like many who profess godlessness openly, he has been punished.

In a handful of majority-Muslim countries atheists can live safely, if quietly; Turkey is one example, Lebanon another. None makes atheism a specific crime. But none gives atheists legal protection or recognition. Indonesia, for example, demands that people declare themselves as one of six religions; atheism and agnosticism do not count. Egypt’s draft constitution makes room for only three faiths: Christianity, Judaism and Islam.

Sharia law, which covers only Muslims unless incorporated into national law, assumes people are born into their parents’ religion. Thus ex-Muslim atheists are guilty of apostasy—a hudud crime against God, like adultery and drinking alcohol. Potential sanctions can be severe: eight states, including Iran, Saudi Arabia, Mauritania and Sudan have the death penalty on their statute books for such offences.

In reality such punishments are rarely meted out. Most atheists are prosecuted for blasphemy or for inciting hatred. (Atheists born to non-Muslim families are not considered apostates, but they can still be prosecuted for other crimes against religion.) Even in places where laws are lenient, religious authorities and social attitudes can be harsh, with vigilantes inflicting beatings or beheadings.

more at link

[LeftofObama]

1. But but but

"Even in places where laws are lenient, religious authorities and social attitudes can be harsh, with vigilantes inflicting beatings or beheadings."


Religion is so peaceful!

[cbayer]

2. It can be, but it certainly isn't in some cases.

[edhopper]

3. Blasphemy and blasmephy laws

confuse me. Is God so thin skinned that people who question him need to be punished by others (I thought God was good at his own punishment). Are peoples' faith so tentative that hearing anything counter can destroy it?

[cbayer]

4. It's political, not religious, imo.

[edhopper]

5. In the abstract it is

but I know of too man believers who agree with and and gleeful at the idea of putting blasphemers to death.
The millions who wanted Rushdie killed where not voicing their political agenda, but were outraged for the insult to their God.
I have seen people in this country who rejoice at someone who is "anti-Christian".
It is a religious mindset that is dangerous.

[cbayer]

6. What? You personally know people who want blasphemers put to death?

Where in the world do you live?

[edhopper]

9. I said I "know of" people. Not personally know them.

Cat Stevens for one on Rushdie and the millions in the Arab world who took to the streets when the fatwa was announced.
I've seen plenty here on the news who want blasphemy laws instituted and call for punishment and even death of the "guilty"

I did unfriend someone on facebook whop seemed to be saying as much.

[cbayer]

10. You have seen people here, in the US, who want blasphemy laws put on the books with death

as the punishment?

I as again, where in the world do you live?

One nut job who you defriended on face book doesn't even reach the level of anecdotal, imo.

[edhopper]

13. A very small minority

Westboro Baptist and their ilk.
I am not saying this is something the vast majority of believers do in this country. My point is, when I see this it seems to be about their religious beliefs, not their political agenda.
People are genuinely angered that their God has been offended and want the offender punished.
I understand the laws have a political component, but for the population at large, blasphemy is all about religion.


And there it is:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021993434

[cbayer]

14. True. It is a small group that are driven by their religious beliefs.

But Westboro is driven by the media attention and that seems like something else to me.

[edhopper]

15. The Preacher might be

but the followers have all the signs of crazy religious zealots doing "God's will" to me.
People who blow up abortion clinics and kill doctors are not political, they think they are saving souls.
Same mindset.

[cbayer]

16. Agree. They exist and are dangerous.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

20. I've met some. I was in the middle east at the time

The penalty for leaving islam is death and there were those eager and willing to wield the knife.

[cbayer]

21. Yes, I am aware that there are people in the middle east that feel that way.

I was curious about whether they are to be found in the US.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

22. I believe so

There have been honor killings here too, not sure if any have been tied to formally leaving islam, but there certainly have children killed for wanting out from under the religious yoke of islam and the sharia

[cbayer]

23. Here? In the US? Were those people prosecuted? Sent to jail?

I would put them in the category of the guy who carved a pentagram into his son's back.

While I know that extremism exists, I was more responding to the other member's contention that there is extremism with regard to blasphemy in our midst. I think that was hyperbole and was calling it.

[muriel_volestrangler]

7. It's specifically in the New Testament

A site visitor, Shaun writes:

"Jesus refers to sin and blasphemy against the Holy Spirit as unforgivable sin. What are these sins and what constitutes blasphemy? Sometimes I feel I may have sinned."

The verse Shaun refers to is found in Mark 3:29 - But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin. (NIV) (Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is also referenced in Matthew 12:31-32 and Luke 12:10).

Shaun is not the first person to be challenged with questions about the meaning of this phrase "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit" or "blasphemy against the Holy Ghost." Many Bible scholars have pondered this question. I have personally come to peace with a very simple explanation.

http://christianity.about.com/od/faqhelpdesk/i/blasphemyagains.htm

So it dates back to the era before Christians had any 'political' power in the Roman Empire. It's about orthodoxy - 'politics inside the religion', if you want.

However, it wouldn't surprise me if the Koran also talks about blasphemy, and that would be written at a time when the religion did have secular power, so that would very much count as 'politics'.

[Leontius]

8. And what is the civil penalty that Jesus called for in regard to blasphemy against the Holy Spirit?

[muriel_volestrangler]

11. If those were his words, he wasn't in a position to call for a civil penalty

Whoever said it (him or the writer), they were imposing a far worse penalty - unforgivable sin means eternal damnation, for anyone who believes in that.

[cbayer]

12. There is always some kind of scripture to back this rubbish up.

That's the thing with the bible. You can pretty much find whatever you need in there to back up your position. It's all in how you interpret it.

[dimbear]

17. That's really why the scripture is so useful, you can do whatever you like with it. It's

like a Swiss Army knife.

[cbayer]

18. That's so true of so many things, isn't it?

Like spinning a political comment. Or taking someones POV out of context. Or using statements of individuals to paint whole groups of people with the same brush.

Everything is open to interpretation and context is oh so critical.

[dimbear]

19. Speaking of the useful little device we call the Swiss Army knife, it's surprising that

similar tools existed in the times of the Roman Empire. OTOH, the present day tool is much better made, more useful, and better adapted to modern needs. It has been improved by long experience, trial and error, and science.

[trotsky]

24. How can you be sure?

You assert it as if it's truth but you have no evidence, only your own prejudice.