Religion
Related: About this forumDid judge insert his religious views into case? Supreme Court refuses appeal.
A North Carolina judge quoted Scripture that refers to the Lords 'vengeance' in sentencing three men to de facto life prison terms for a robbery that netted less than $3,000. The Supreme Court declined to hear the case Tuesday.
By Warren Richey, Staff writer / January 22, 2013
The US Supreme Court declined on Tuesday to hear an appeal by three young North Carolina men who claim a judge inserted his personal religious views into their case by sentencing them to de facto life prison terms for a robbery that netted less than $3,000.
The justices dismissed the appeal without comment.
What raised the judges ire at the sentencing was the fact that the three men chose as their target an ongoing Sunday service at the Ridgeview Presbyterian Church in Bakersville.
The men entered the church wearing ski masks, and they were armed with two guns and a roll of duct tape. Their loot included money, cellphones, keys, and other personal property taken from the worshipers. They even cleaned out that mornings collection plate.
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Justice/2013/0122/Did-judge-insert-his-religious-views-into-case-Supreme-Court-refuses-appeal
The Fourth Circuit decision now stands.
http://www.ca4.uscourts.gov/Opinions/Published/117389.P.pdf
cbayer
(146,218 posts)what these guys did was despicable. Technically, they are the ones that brought religion into the mix to begin with, so I can see why their appeals are being dismissed.
rug
(82,333 posts)Still, his comments were way over the line.
TheMadMonk
(6,187 posts)Unless there is evidence of a specific hate crime involved, the location should be irrelevant. Should be treated no differently than the same crime in a restaurant or a private backyard.
rug
(82,333 posts)conspiracy to commit armed robbery in the Superior Court of Mitchell County.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)said to him. Still, I agree, his comments were out of line.
rug
(82,333 posts)kwassa
(23,340 posts)with large gun in hand.
http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080327131829AA9GnaE
Jules: There's a passage I got memorized. Ezekiel 25:17. "The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of the darkness. For he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know I am the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon you
and Samuel is actually quoting a mishmash of different biblical sayings.
rug
(82,333 posts)kestrel91316
(51,666 posts)okasha
(11,573 posts)The judge should be invited to retire---waaay out of line. Eleven counts of armed robbery, on the other hand, should draw a life sentence. Thats ten too many for leniency.
Fortinbras Armstrong
(4,473 posts)I realize that atheists tend to get all pissy when a believer refers to his religion in public. They should stop their constant whining about it.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)This is more than just referring to his religion in public. It is insertion of his religion into secular matters.
Phillip McCleod
(1,837 posts)okasha
(11,573 posts)However, there's "public," and then there's public.
The judge would have been within his rights to make these remarks in, say, a public place such as a restaurant. Or he might appropriately have made them in a talk to his Rotary club.
In a court, at the bench, the judge represents the power of the state. In that setting, there's no question that he was out of line and endorsing a religious viewpoint.
Turbineguy
(37,394 posts)these three are too stupid to function in a modern society. So in this case jail protects them and gives them 3 squares and a flop.
GeorgeGist
(25,326 posts)That's fucked up. Not justice.
rug
(82,333 posts)cbayer
(146,218 posts)What do you think they should get?
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)than if they had actually, you know, shot people, or killed them, make sense? Or is proportion a silly notion?
white_wolf
(6,238 posts)The goal of the justice system should be rehabilitation not vengeance. Seriously, less than 3,000 dollars were stolen. How much has Wall Street stolen in the past year alone?
okasha
(11,573 posts)The perpetrators threatened the lives of the entire congregation in general and at least eleven in particular. The sentence has nothing to do with the amount stolen. It has to do with the potential lethal harm to the victims.
Adsos Letter
(19,459 posts)I don't play one on TV, and I didn't stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night; however, this bothers me:
wrote that coming in Gods house using God as a
curse and to make people give up their possessions
and taking Gods money and threatening Gods people, I cant imagine how evil these men are to have
done this. That is the feeling of one person and I
hope you realize thats an opinion that is or a feeling
that is justified. I mean you didnt just steal money
from people. You took Gods money. You took the
Lords money and those of us that believe that there
is an Almighty and that there is a being that created
this world to go in and then steal money that is being
tendered by people for the furtherance of an earthly
kingdom is just outrageous. . . .
Gentlemen, this is just something that cant be tolerated and your attorneys have all asked for leniency
and mercy but there are times when you have to kind
of draw the line and you have to say that there are
4 DEYTON v. KELLER
some things that just cant be tolerated by society. I
mean you cant just go in a church armed and tie
people up or hold them at gunpoint, threaten to kill
them and rob the collection plate and rob them while
they are in the worship service and expect that the
law is not going to come down just about as strongly
as it can on you. There is scripture that says "Vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord" but every now and
then I think the judicial system has to contribute
what it can.
http://www.ca4.uscourts.gov/Opinions/Published/117389.P.pdf
I don't fault the judge for taking a harsh stance toward the secular aspects of the crime (not sure that's the best way to characterize it) but I do question the religious aspect. Is it simply the expectation of security found in a church that is at issue here? Is that greater than the expectation of security in one's home, a hospital, a school, etc.? Would the sentencing be as harsh for crimes committed in those type of environments? Perhaps, but would the rationale be a specifically religious one?
If there are "some things that just cant be tolerated by society" wouldn't that be the crime of robbery, threat of violence, etc., and not the taking of "God's money?" Why should there be a harsher sentencing for a crime where the victim is "in the worship service," as opposed to one where the victim is in bed asleep, or sitting on the john, or opening Christmas gifts with the family? Why is taking money from a collection plate, money "that is being tendered by people for the furtherance of an earthly kingdom" a greater crime than taking my rent and grocery money from my dresser drawer?
I don't know...I'm obviously not versed in the law, but this judge's reasons for the harsh sentencing trouble me. It sounds to me like he is in agreement with the religious nature of the outrage expressed by the parishioners, and it forms some of the basis for his sentencing.
Obviously, The Court disagrees with me.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)I guess I would look at it like I look at the protections we have for some groups right here on DU.
In some cases, there is, perhaps, a higher expectation of safety. I would say schools are the top ones, but would also propose that there may be others - churches, hospitals, senior citizen centers, funeral homes. Perhaps the tie that binds them is that these are place where people may make themselves more vulnerable and perhaps churches shouldn't be included in that group, but I'm not sure.
Adsos Letter
(19,459 posts)(not sure; I'm still thinking this through, and will continue to do so when I go out to clean the garage this afternoon).
I'm pretty certain I have a problem with the religious component in the sentencing.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)that it changed the sentencing. The charges were quite serious and multiple.
Adsos Letter
(19,459 posts)It did give me pause to consider how often unspoken considerations inform grounds for judicial decisions. The judge spoke his mind, but what if he hadn't?
I'd be curious to know if there is some typical sentence for similar incidents minus the religious component.
On an absolutely unrelated point: I almost finished emptying my garage today (an ongoing project). I had 59 gallons of old latex paint, and 19 gallons of old alkyd paint in there. Thank heavens for the paint take-back program California paint shops currently have going.
And who on earth keeps 4 gallons of various crackle glazes on hand?
cbayer
(146,218 posts)I got over all that when I moved on to a very small space, though I am still *training* by husband.
Our general rule is that nothing comes in unless something goes out, but that doesn't always work.
Good for you for taking the paint into the take-back program.
Good luck completing the task. I walked away from a 2400 square foot house with a suitcase, my art and my photographs. It felt great!
Adsos Letter
(19,459 posts)I retired 7 years ago, and the remodel is forcing me to finally pare things down around here. My wife and I are committed to simplifying things now that both daughters are launched on the course of independent lives.
One of the pleasant results of remodeling, as far as the garage is concerned, is that brand new pantries and a dedicated wood shop area are emerging from the wreckage.
I am envious of your boat living arrangements. I'd be quite satisfied with a nicely appointed RV, but the wife looks at me askance whenever I mention it. Perhaps in another 10 years.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)on their own. One of they joys of the boat is that they can come visit, but there is no possibility of any of them moving in, lol.
I think an RV would be great at some point. The problem for me would be the fuel costs. Ours are currently very, very low. We have seen a few RV's that run on vegetable oil and are quite small, though.
Enjoy your projects, Adsos Letter!