The shame of the Catholic workplace

[trotsky]

http://www.startribune.com/opinion/commentaries/225577512.html

At an accelerating rate, Catholic schools and churches around the country are firing lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender employees who have decided that they can no longer deny who they are and whom they love.

...

At a time when even Pope Francis himself is urging the church to move beyond what he calls its “obsession” with sexual issues, Catholic schools and parishes are intensifying the judgmental behavior that the pope urged Catholics to eschew in a recent interview with Jesuit publications.

These incidents, like others around the country, cost Catholic institutions the services of dedicated and talented individuals who, in most instances, have served the church and community effectively for years. Catholic prelates like Archbishop John Nienstedt say that the church must enforce its employment policies in order to defend its teachings on marriage and the family.

...

When gay, lesbian or transgender people attempt to live openly as the individuals that God created them to be, however, the hierarchy is suddenly zealous to defend its doctrine. This double standard is increasingly obvious both to lay Catholics (almost three-quarters of whom support laws that would protect lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people in the workplace, according to a 2011 survey by the Public Religion Research Institute) and the general public.

What this writer unfortunately fails to realize is that the actions of his church and its institutions are completely in line with even the current pope's more tolerant-sounding rhetoric. Francis said that as long as homosexuals were seeking god in good faith, he wouldn't judge. Well of course the gotcha here is that if they are in a committed, loving relationship, they aren't acting in good faith, because that's a sin.

[libodem]

1. Seems very sad to me

When true believers are rejected for being who they are. Education about all things sex related is major. I think many folks just don't have the facts. I'm going out on a limb and say I suspect this may be backlash against all the Priest molestation charges. I think many wrongly believe that one's orientation would make them interested in children of the same gender? Could not be more wrong. It just is not the same.
Straight males under duress are way more likely to make the odd transgression on a child in their care than females or non-straight folks. Women generally only do something like this if there is something 'wrong' like a major mental illness. Drugs and alcohol fuel behavior that people wish they had not perpetrated. Pretty sure.

All in all I hurt for people whom wish to be included in a church family for all the genuine Agape' love and acceptance these people peddle.

Go make your own church! One that has God at the head and not a pile of cash. Or judgements.

God bless these rejected Christians. The meek shall inherit the Earth! God loves you. I'm pretty sure.

[msongs]

2. bad things happent to people who choose religions that hate them nt

[trotsky]

3. And that's the frustrating part

I feel so badly for the RCC's victims, but can they truly be surprised? Thankfully there are churches that will welcome them.

[Heddi]

4. I had a friend, who recently "came out" and was catholic

she said once she was able to break free of that repressive religion, she was able to see that she was like an abused spouse. Every time she went to church (and she is quite religious, and quite gay, and doesn't see those as being in opposition to each other), she was being told directly or indirectly that she was worthless, she was evil, she would never go to heaven, she was rejecting God with her lifestyle. She said all they could do to make it complete was sock her in the jaw or push her down the stairs.

She said that all she ever wanted was to make God happy, but she was told over and over again that God hated her and people like her, that there were no Queer angels in heaven and even when she was on the brink of suicide because of her conflict with her sexual identity, her family, her religion, and all the complicated relationships with others we have in life, when she sought counceling at her church she wasn't outright told...but lead to pretty much believe that God would love her more as a dead queer virgin than a living one that fulfilled her sinful, deviant lifestyle.

It was not her church that kept her from putting razor to wrist. It was barely her family, because they were unable to reconcile religious teachings vs love of a child. It was her friends, like me, who talked her off that ledge that she teetered on preciptiously for so many years of her life. So many years wasted in tears instead of in joy. SO many years wasted in self hate instead of in a loving relationship with herself and others.

She's right. She was abused. Emotionally abused.

She is now a Unitarian/Pagan somethingorother. She says since she left The Church (tm) she was able to see that you can have different relationships with God. Instead of seeing him as she previously did, as a dictating father who was never pleased and always angry that the A you got in History wasn't an A+, or that the A+ you got in English was only because the teacher doesn't teach as hard as they should,she now sees him as a distant friend who she can call when she's having a bad day but otherwise doesn't interact with.

She does like to relate that no matter how often she was admonished by members of her church for being gay, her tithes were never turned away. Of course.

[trotsky]

5. Powerful story, Heddi.

I too have a connection to someone who has gone through a similar process. The fortunate part of his circumstances is that his very Catholic family has been able to reject their church's doctrine and support/embrace him. So much so that his sister and her husband left the RCC - they've never been happier.

There have been several people here on DU who have mocked me for my concern about repressive church practices and beliefs - Why should an atheist care about religion? For someone who doesn't believe in god, you sure talk about it a lot! and so on - but I do it for people like your friend. For people like my friend. The people who smear us never seem to have an answer; they would rather just dwell on whatever recent Richard Dawkins hit piece got published and just wish and hope that somehow the hierarchy of the RCC will decide to stop ruining the lives of millions of people.

[Heddi]

7. they other day I was told

I was using hyperbole when I called the prohibition of Chaplains performing funeral services for military members who are in same-sex relationships "bigoted"

I was also told that this was a situation that didn't apply to me :shaking head:

because we all know that one can only be outraged at a situation that directly impacts that person and only that person. Not if it affects their family, or their friends, or their loved ones, or their community, or the world at large....

Which means that white people can never speak out about Racism unless those white people are the victims of racism.
which means that non-pregnant people can never speak out about issues regarding pregnancy choice, since they are not directly affected by pregnancy choice (by their not being pregnant)
which means that non-Atheists cannot speak out about, oh, sexism in the ATHEIST COMMUNITY because they are not part of the atheist community....

etc.

Of course *I* know that's not the case, and YOU know that's not the case....

sigh

[rug]

9. No, you ewere told you were using hyperbole because you didn't have the facts.

sigh

[Heddi]

13. No, I did have facts

you just don't seem to like it when people point out that many of the behaviours of and on made on behalf of the RCC are bigoted, hateful, and hurtful

Sigh, indeed

[rug]

14. The thread is there to read.

[skepticscott]

8. Yes, but these are extremists

They aren't REAL Catholics, so you mustn't be criticizing them, according to our resident scolds, apologists and Arbiters of What May and May Not Be Discussed.

In fact this must just be the Extremist Roman Catholic Church we're talking about here, not the Real Roman Catholic Church, because none of the tolerant, open, welcoming, affirming Catholics that we're told so much about would ever voluntarily lend their moral and financial support to such disgusting, fundamental, institutionalized bigotry...would they?

[rug]

11. Here's some more straw.

[rug]

10. "she was told over and over again that God hated her"

I'd like to know the name of that parish.

[Heddi]

12. I'm sorry, but I don't post people's private information online

I'm sorry that you have trouble believing that not all churches are liberal progressive gay loving abortion hugging centers of faith. That there are churches, particularly in the deep south, that have very regressive belief systems that mirror the beliefs of those in the community.

I'll tell you this: South Carolina isn't a very welcoming place for Gays. Several of my best friends in high school were gay. And they were beaten because of it. BEATEN because of it.

They were beaten by people that I know to have been considered Baptists and Catholics and Protestants in good standing with their church.

I have seen the protests by these church members, protests initiated by their churches, against bars that advertised themselves as Gay Friendly estabilishments. Places that dared to fly the rainbow flag.

I have been a required attendee to numerous school programs, held during school hours, that were mandatory to attend, where we, students in a public school, were preached to by members of various religious groups espousing homosexual acts, sex before marriage, abortion, and masturbation (!!). Not told these things in a setting of health education, but specifically coached in religious language and symbolism, with heavy reminders of what does and doesn't make God happy, and what nastiness awaits those who choose to make God sad.

And this isn't 1950
or 1960, or 70, or 80.

This is the period between 1990-1994, when I left public secondary school in South Carolina.

She was a member of a community that was not welcoming towards gays and lesbians. She was physically assaulted in and outside of school for being a lesbian. Her attackers were never punished or held accountable for their crimes against her. Adults turned a blind eye to the violence that she, and other "oddballs" faced. She was rebuked at home for being gay, and she was rebuked at church for failing to meet the ever so simple standards that God has set for us.

I do not disbelieve her when she says she was told that God hated her because she was a lesbian. I do not disbelieve her when she tells me that it was strongly implied that God would rather have her dead, and a virgin than be alive and a lesbian living a sinful lifestyle. I do not disbelieve her when she tells me that she was taunted by members of her church, including clergy, when she attempted to seek help regarding suicidal thoughts, her confusion over her sexual identity, and her identity as a practicing catholic otherwise in good faith.

But you don't even know her. Never met her. Never made your fingers bloody as you pulled a razor out of her hand and away from her wrist. You weren't there when she did OD, and you weren't there when she OD'ed and forgot to call for help, finding her in a puddle of her own vomit clinging to life.

You don't know her, but you disbelieve her.

It's not as if her story is unique amongst gay teens who seek help from religious sources.

It's not as if there isn't a huge cottage industry set up, and hopefully soon to be made illegal, that does say God isn't pleased with you if you're gay, and you weren't meant to be gay, so come on and have this here conversion therapy to make you straight, the way that God loves you to be.

Why is this hard for you to believe?

[rug]

15. Well, that statement is hard to believe. I don't.

Say what you will about the RCC, and there is much, it does not teach over and over that God hates you.

You don't know her, but you disbelieve her.

To be specific, I don't believe you.

This sounds very much like the classic bouncy tale.

[Heddi]

16. Remind me to let you know

when I give two shits about whether you believe me or not.

I have a feeling I could present the woman telling the tale in her own words, videotaped and unedited and you'd have an issue with it.

I'm sure the RCC doesn't hold an official position of denying those who support pro-choice candidates from receiving communion, yet there were stories of priests threatening to deny communion to those who support pro-choice candidates.

I'm sure there are many things that the RCC, as doctrine, do not support but rather that leaders and members of individual parishes/churches promote or deny, argue for or against.

So whether THE CHURCH, as in the official from the pope all the way down says to say "god hates lesbians", I have no idea but probably not. I don't think that PJPII sent a letter to X parish in X South Carolina saying "Ah yes, God hates this girl. Please let her know. XOXO & Kisses, Johnnie Paul" Again, she didn't go to the Vatican as a confused 14 year old. She went to her local parish and sought guidance there.

Whether leaders in **HER CHURCH** told her that God hated her for her lesbianism, I have no doubt that they did.

[rug]

17. Whatever words you wish to put in her mouth, I seriously doubt those.

I care less about whether you "give two shits" than I do about honest statements.

[Heddi]

18. I have put no words in her mouth, and I'm sorry that you cannot see

that many members in positions of leadership in the Catholic Church have no compassion for gay children. At least not in 1992ish when this occurred (maybe earlier, maybe later. Not exactly sure of the date, time, and position of the planets, as I'm sure to you is vindication of the pure vile lies that are just slithering out of my fingers)

Here's a hint: I don't need to lie about the RCC to make a case of how badly they treat certain members of the community.

Their reputation precedes them

[rug]

19. I don't believe it for a minute. Anyone can type any anecdote to further a preordained point.

It is a preposterous and completely incredible statement.

[rug]

6. The author is Catholic.

Jim Smith of Minneapolis is program director for DignityUSA, a member of the Equally Blessed coalition, which works for justice for lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people in the Roman Catholic Church and the wider society.