God gets the credit after gun malfunctions at crowded McDonald’s

[SecularMotion]

While the suspect faces charges, survivors of what many say could have been another shooting rampage are counting their blessings.

Police say they can’t explain why a shooter’s weapon jammed at a Fort Worth McDonald’s on Tuesday night, but at least one customer says he knows why a tragedy was averted:

“That’s all it was, was God,” Davage Armstrong tells WFAA. “That’s all it could have been.”

Fort Worth police tell the station that Jestin Joseph, 24, walked into the restaurant in south Fort Worth on Tuesday just after 9 p.m., and is seen on video aiming a gun at employees and customers. Children were also inside. Those in the crowd ran for cover.

http://blog.chron.com/newswatch/2013/09/god-gets-the-credit-after-gun-malfunctions-at-crowded-mcdonalds/

[LiberalEsto]

1. How do we know he wasn't just exercising his right to open carry?

I mean, the poor guy might just have been wanting to show off his new piece.

[villager]

5. And now the poor fellow is being persecuted for exercising his 2nd Amendment rights!

n/t

[bunnies]

2. Yes, because no gun ever malfunctions on its own.

[Richardo]

3. He must REALLY hate classrooms full of 6-year-olds then

[demosincebirth]

4. His gun jammed for Christ sakes! Why would God intevine, here, at McDonalds and not in the

theatre shooting or at the shooting in Ariz, killing six innocent people and wounding a U.S. congresswomen? Do I have to go on and on?

[cbayer]

6. For whatever reason it malfunctioned, we can all be thankful.

Tragedy is that mother called police expressing concern for her son's safety four hours before the incident. They may have been looking for him, but I doubt it.

[Laochtine]

7. Weak god

Thankfully a badly constructed gun got in the hands of a nut

[Heddi]

8. Seriously---you think God would have intervened a bit earlier

and either
1) made the person not suffer from mental illness
2) If the person had mental illness, intervene so that they could have gotten proper medical care/treatment
3) prevented the person from getting a gun
4) given him a flat tire on the way to going to McDonalds

I mean...jamming the gun at the last minute...seems like a pretty weak way to intervene

[Laochtine]

17. god works in

careless er mysterious ways

[rrneck]

9. Looks like a failed robbery to me. nt

[hrmjustin]

10. I think we can understand that the people who could have died are thankful they did not die.

Not sure what the purpose of this post is.

[skepticscott]

11. You know exactly what the purpose of this post is

It's not about people being generally thankful that they didn't die. It's about idiots giving god credit for the fact that they didn't die, when any person not totally brain-addled by their faith can see how silly that is (as has been amply demonstrated even in a few short responses here).

So why again are you not sure of the purpose of this post?

[hrmjustin]

12. So a person who almost just died giving God thanks for keeping him/her alive is an idiot. Ok got it.

[skepticscott]

13. It's been amply demonstrated in this thread

why thinking that god would intervene in this way and only this way to save their lives is very much at odds with reason and reality, unless they believe in a very cruel, capricious, arbitrary and despicable god. If you'd like to counter any of those arguments and show how that stance makes perfect sense, feel free, but I won't hold my breath. And you might also explain how propagating the notion that god will intervene to protect you when you need him to or when you pray for him to is a good and wonderful thing, rather than foolish and dangerous.

[hrmjustin]

14. I am not getting into whether God intervenes or not. I think that if a person chooses to believe

that God saved them and got them through a very bad moment of their life they should not be mocked or called idiots.

[skepticscott]

20. And if a person thinks

that god created the whole world and everything in it only 6000 years ago, is it OK to call them a "dumbass"? Or is mocking them like that really shitty behavior?

And no, of course you're not getting into whether these people are delusional or irrational or not. You know where the path of reason would lead. But for you, all that matters is that someone believes something...that makes everything else ok.

[hrmjustin]

22. Do you need to call them idiots?

[skepticscott]

25. Non-responsive

Answer the question.

[hrmjustin]

27. I personally try my best not to make fun of a persons efiefs about anothers faith or non-faith.

As a host of this room and others, and a member of Mirt I believe that I personally should not make fun of a persons beliefs. I am sure if you dig you can probably find posts where I have called their views ridiculious.

The fact is I try to be polite about others beliefs.

Now do you need to call them idiots?

[skepticscott]

32. Also non-responsive

But I think everyone here knows why and can see your rather transparent double standard.

[hrmjustin]

33. I gave you my answer. When I am on this site I try my best to be politie. You can call anyone you

want and privately I may or may not agree with you. But I try to show them respect. Now why do you need to call them idiot?

[skepticscott]

37. No, you didn't

The question was:

If a person thinks that god created the whole world and everything in it only 6000 years ago, is it OK to call them a "dumbass"? Or is mocking them like that really shitty behavior?

Let's have your answer. Will you condemn what you're accusing me of in everyone, or will you continue as host to employ a double standard?

[hrmjustin]

40. I think you can make a good argument that creationists are wrong and can look foolish.

But just calling them a dumbass for the sake of saying it is petty. I have every faith in you that you can logically state reasons why creationism should not be believed.

So my answer is it depends on why you are calling them a dumbass. If it is just to call them a dumbass for fun then that is impolite. If it is because they have done a dumb act like try to make creationism taught in schools I understand why you call them that. But as I said I think you can be clear on your views without name calling.

[skepticscott]

44. Ah, good..then we agree that mocking people

for good reasons is perfectly reasonable and understandable. And as we both know, I have never called creationists "a bunch of dumbasses" here. You'll have to look closer to home for that.

Thanks for coming around...as usual.

[hrmjustin]

46. I think to mock someone there should be a good reason for doing it. I am guilty like many others of

not living up to that standard.

My views were the same before I started posting in this thread so I did not come around.

Now answer my question. Why did you call them idiots.


Edit you answered my question in another post.

[hrmjustin]

35. And personally I do not think God prevented their death.

[skepticscott]

39. You just think that

people who believe god did prevent their deaths are just as right, just as rational and just as well connected with reality as those who don't, regardless of the arguments against that. Because everyone has to be right, everything has to be equal, and blind belief in something makes it all happen.

[hrmjustin]

41. I believe they survived because the gun was broken. Nothing divine about that.

I think mocking people and name calling which you did is not called for. They went through a trauma and it is understandable they were thankful to be alive.

[skepticscott]

42. I realize that you cannot acknowledge the difference

between saying "I'm thankful to be alive" and "I'm thankful that god made that gun jam and kept me alive", but please don't act like I don't know the difference.

[hrmjustin]

43. Well you call them idiots expect a response.

These people had a bad moment and they don't need to have their faith mocked.

[skepticscott]

45. Enabling and supporting this kind of "faith"

as you do, leads to much worse moments than a little scare. You know that too, but I'm sure won't acknowledge it.

[hrmjustin]

47. then say this instead of calling them idiots. Much clearer answer.

[skepticscott]

54. Sometimes bullshit is bullshit

and idiots are idiots. Always deferring, retreating, compromising and being wishy-washy only helps those things flourish, as we're seeing in Washington right now.

Republicans don't get a free pass from that sort of thing on this site...why should religion?

[hrmjustin]

55. I just thought considering what they went through you could give them a break.

[skepticscott]

56. No, that's not all you thought

or all you said. But your backpedaling is right on schedule.

And unless they're reading the religion board on DU, I doubt they'll be damaged by anything I say here, no matter how big a Christian persecution complex you ascribe to them.

[hrmjustin]

57. Read my first post in this thread.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=96398

[rug]

48. Yes, he does.

[AtheistCrusader]

36. Can you articulate why, exactly?

[hrmjustin]

38. Why they should not e mocked?

[AtheistCrusader]

50. Sure.

I mean, we mock people for stupid ideas all the time. Doesn't mean the person is necessarily stupid. I know a lot of good, smart people that do dumb things from time to time.

Sometimes mockery can help people get over something, or remember not to return to some thing that wasn't worth it in the first place.

[hrmjustin]

51. Well look I don't think that God chooses who lives or dies. I also do not think that God stopped the

gun from working. I d however think we should leave these people alone and not mock them because they went through a hard moment and their faith sustained them. I say we give them a brake.

[AtheistCrusader]

52. But there's no evidence that faith sustained them.

Hell, such beliefs might get them into trouble (overconfidence) down the road.

There are any number of probability-related things that probably saved them. Most of them related to this being a thug who didn't maintain, or test his weapon, and didn't know what to do about it if it malfunctioned.

That can't possibly be divine intervention. It's not even consistent with any other shootings.

[hrmjustin]

53. And you can make those points, ut what I was saying do we really need to bother them

about this. My faith has sustained me in hard moments. My reaction is give them a break on this one.

[cbayer]

15. The purpose appears to mock people who were in a terrifying situation

where they had virtually no control.

While I personally do not believe that prayer changed what happened in any way, I suspect it served a purpose for the individuals that prayed.

And there is nothing wrong with that.

[hrmjustin]

16. These poor people go through hell and they get called idiots for saying God got them through

this and saved them. I don't understand the need to mock them.

[muriel_volestrangler]

18. Then write to the Houston Chronicle and complain

They're the ones who wrote a whole article pointing out how both people at McDonald's and the guy's mother are saying God Did It. And the Fort Worth Star-Telegram says a police officer credited God too. He didn't go through hell.

[hrmjustin]

19. I don't see how it is news worthy that these people creditied God and I don't know why they have to

be called idiots.

I shall think about contacting the HC.

[skepticscott]

21. We'll look forward eagerly

to your LTE.

[cbayer]

23. The article does not call them idiots and doesn't mock them.

The question was what is the purpose of posting it here.

Not an unreasonable question and it was answered, wasn't it. That is where the idiot statement came in.

[muriel_volestrangler]

26. True, it doesn't call them idiots; but I wouldn't be so sure about not mocking them

It is all about the reaction of "this was God". If not direct mocking, it is examining that as an attitude worth noting.

[cbayer]

29. It stays pretty neutral, so I'm not sure. The headline could be construed

as provocative at the very least.

And some of the comments are really frightening.

I saw lots and lots of praying during Katrina. I don't think it changed anything, but it gave some people solace.

Should we make fun of the american slaves who turned to spirituals during unspeakable times? Jews in concentration camps who prayed?

[skepticscott]

24. Baloney

No one is mocking the situation they went through. Their rationality and ability to think and reason within the bounds of reality in the aftermath of that situation are what is being called into serious doubt.

If these people were saying (and really, actually being serious about it) "I'm so thankful that Gandalf made that gun jam with his magic wand", you would be right in thinking they were bonkers, and you would see lots of people thinking and saying the same thing, and mocking the crazies, without any dissenting word. How is this any different? How does cloaking the exact same delusion in religion somehow make it wonderful and uplifting and worthy of praise?

[Politicalboi]

31. I like that

You're right. Why is that. But put the word "God" in there, well it's believable to some. LOL! I put it right there with Santa. Behave or you won't get any toys. Or behave, or you won't go to heaven. Same thing to me.

[skepticscott]

34. But you can be sure

that the religionistas, apologists and accomodationists here won't even attempt a coherent answer. They'll just try to dismiss it as a "gotcha" question, which means "Anything that exposes how bankrupt my thinking and my arguments are". But, self-delusion is their right, and I deeply respect their right to be that way.

[rug]

49. Are you calling "religionistas, apologists and accomodationists here" self-deluded?

And by "here", are you referring to DU?

Two simple questions. Let's see how long it will take to "attempt a coherent answer." Or even a direct yes or no.

[dimbear]

28. Why your semiautomatic pistol jams...........

http://www.northcarolinasportsman.com/details.php?id=485

Due for a small update--adding in "Divine intervention."

[Politicalboi]

30. Why does God hate guns??????