Who has the best hand?

[defacto7]

I cross posted this in both GCRA and A&A because it's kind of double edged.

A few days ago, a friend I had not seen in years gave me a call and asked if he could drop by. He's an evangelical fundamentalist and with me being his complete opposite it posed an opportunity for lively discussion for sure, so we decided to get in his truck and go out to eat. We discussed several things one of which was his faith in God to protect him from harm which took us to Internet issues such as privacy, NSA and even passwords. He said, "I don't care about passwords because God will take care of my stuff as he sees fit. I don't worry about it because I have faith he will keep my accounts safe." He proceeded to share with me his one password for /everything/ which was a 6 character lower case word and utterly useless. Then we got into 2nd amendment issues where he gave me the usual RW blather about Obama and the LW trying to take his guns away at which point he showed me a gun that he carries in his truck. He held it up and said, "This is the hand of God." Then I asked, "what kind of a metaphor is that?" His reply, "it's no metaphor." I said, "but don't you trust God to protect you and your life just as much as your Internet access? Why would you need a gun when you have faith in God?" Then he replied with a kind of reverence, "If God calls me to use it, I will use it." End of conversation.

Beside the fact that his argument is hypocritical this person is no backwoods slouch. In fact he's quite intelligent and well educated though he picks and chooses his facts according to the "will" of God and the bible.

If he represents 10 other people in the US, we have a problem. I'm sure he represents thousands. If people carry guns on their person or in their vehicles, and states have no strict laws that bar such carrying practices, and law enforcement has no will to enforce such a law, such irrational numb ethics that becomes the will of God in the minds of thousands of believers of a thousand definitions of god will be the hand of a thousand different gods. Those gods exist the minds of fearful, angry and irrational hypocrites who can't even keep their faith in the God they believe in.

I have just joined the ranks of those who want to see his "hand of God" taken away after all. That's a blanket statement but I see no reason for fallible humans with the propensity for false judgment to be the carriers of death walking and driving in the presence of us all.

[Warpy]

1. His "faith in god" to protect his privacy and passwords and all that other stuff is just

another way of saying he's bone lazy.

He's got that gun because he knows god isn't going to do diddly when the shit hits the fan.

He thinks in too many slogans for me. Intelligent? I rather think not.

[defacto7]

2. Oh he's intelligent,

he's just not smart. The difference is having an able mind filled with facts or filled with BS. Those slogans are like an ethereal weirdness that seems to hover over well practiced religionists. If you say things enough they get imprinted in the mind and ears of the believer which a lot of the time is the "sound of the spirit". It's mimicry of words and sound. I swear it's used as a recognition technique that they don't even know they're practicing. To them it sounds like an epiphany to me it's trite. If it sounds like the spirit it must be true, if it sounds plain your not a true Scot..uh.. Christian.

As far as bone lazy, maybe. But I think he just dismisses it as an "I don't care". I think that's a dangerous attitude.

[AtheistCrusader]

3. I carry at times.

1. I am not a police officer. It is not my duty to enforce the law, or protect property.
2. If I am to so much as draw that weapon, it will be because MY life, or someone else I choose to protect IS IN IMMEDIATE EXISTENTIAL DANGER.

No other circumstance will cause me to act. I ONLY carry because human life is precious to me, and I am willing to protect it.

I am not a judge. I am not a jury. I am not a pawn of a supernatural judge/force/whatever.


That person you described has a deplorable, and dangerous attitude toward life.

Edit: The first half of these two scenes.

[defacto7]

4. I won't judge your position...

I do find your code toward carrying in the minority and I would guess the ability to live up to that code in the vast minority but that is something we can't know.

"That person you described has a deplorable, and dangerous attitude toward life."

I totally agree and I know many, many like him, even some among my own relations. It's not a foreign subject to me.

edit: I wrote the reply before watching the vid. It's been disabled by the original poster to not be embedded in other sites. Oh well.

[AtheistCrusader]

7. Well, I've been carrying for 9 years.

Never even drawn it for any reason. I actually find myself holding myself to a higher standard when I carry. When someone pisses me off, I'm much more ready to de-escalate, rather than express myself.

I don't doubt that is not the norm. A lot of training classes spend most of the class working on that de-escalation, avoid, evade, only fire as last resort sort of mentality. But there are individuals... they are looking for trouble.


The video is Captain Mal from Firefly, assuring Simon Tam that he won't kill Simon in his sleep. "Son, if I ever kill you, you'll be awake. You'll be facing me. You'll be armed."

[defacto7]

8. I appreciate your personal control...

"But there are individuals... they are looking for trouble. "

That description only covers those who would be out and out trouble makers and easily detected. The real problem are the majority of undetectable who are the carry would-bes and the inexperienced class graduates. There are not that many left in society that have the ability to know what they would do in a dangerous situation. They can mimic the words and ideas but after a time, things change. The weapon is owned by them and becomes more casual and personal as time goes on. How many people in 2014 do you think have the focus to retain a code of conduct rigorous enough to follow through with self-control after a year? 5 years? 10 years? 20 years? Our society does not hold that kind of focus and devotion as an asset. Our society is on the edge of the trigger in everything in daily life from having a job to getting groceries, to driving the kids to practice, to entertainment, to relationships, to fundamentalism... Society is on the trigger's edge in everything they do and we are taught every day to be in the "on the edge" condition.

Self awareness is not a revered attribute in this century. On the contrary, it's an attribute to be discarded for the blitz of the moment. In that lie the foundations of disaster.

[AtheistCrusader]

11. Agree on most points, WRT society in general.

People who carry are a bit... different. Out of ~310 million Americans, nationwide there are only 9-10 million with licenses for this. (And one state that does not require a license.)

Obviously you have your George Zimmerman ticking time bombs out there, which is very unfortunate. But by and large, CPL holders are decent people. These are all people who have voluntarily submitted to a full background check, and placed their fingerprints on file with the FBI for easy identification if they do commit a crime.


I WOULD like to see more training, and I don't just mean, hitting a target. In my state there is no training requirement at all. Pay your money, pass the background check, get your license. And a pamphlet with a list of state laws regarding carry, and use of deadly force.
I think that is inadequate. We had a class at work, invited in a man regarded as the best self-defense attorney in the state, to speak to us about it. His summary; avoid shooting at all costs. He laid it out for us. Even in cases where the shooter is WHOLLY innocent of any wrongdoing, the average cost is 1-2 months in court, which can lead to job loss, and more than 10k in legal fees. For me, I'm MORE concerned about the possibility of taking a life, something I can't give back if I made a mistake, but laying out the costs/risks also resonated with other participants. He also talked about how while you might be totally justified, in the moment, your actions will be judged by a jury under no stress, populated by people who have never been in a life or death situation, let alone people who carry a gun for a living or otherwise, sitting in a comfortable, air conditioned room.

It's just all around a bad thing. It's bad to be in that position in the first place. It's sad for the person you might have to defend yourself against. It's bad to be in court over it, civil or criminal, etc.


Most of the time when I am carrying, it is due to wildlife, not humans.

[Act_of_Reparation]

10. Shun sheng duh gao wahn!

How I miss Firefly.

[progressoid]

5. We are all have some contradictions in our life

but religious believers seem to be chock full of contradictions.

Even if you logically state your case, it doesn't seem to matter. Their beliefs, no matter how foul, override rationality. They don't seem to care.

[defacto7]

6. They thrive on contradictions.

Without contradictions with reality they have no faith. If there were no contradictions they would have facts and facts nullify faith by definition. All contradictions can be soothed by the brush, "we can't know the mind of an omnipotent God". Practicing contradictions is faith based religion.

[uriel1972]

9. "We can't know the mind of an omnipotent God."

Yet somehow they will know what God wants and somehow it's the same thing they want. Funny that.

[AtheistCrusader]

12. If a god is omnipotent, it is within that god's power to make itself known, understandable and

approachable to us.

Otherwise, it's not omnipotent.


Whether it DESIRES to, is another matter, but when people say that, they are placing limitations upon their supposed omnipotent god. I flip that around on them in a heartbeat.