An Indonesian man who said that God did not exist on Facebook page for atheists could face jail

[Starboard Tack]

Atheism is illegal in Indonesia. How fucked up is that?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-16644141

[darkstar3]

1. That's what theocracy does for you.

As I understand it, Indonesia is governed by Sharia Law now, and it's a recent conversion. Run like hell, infidel!

[Starboard Tack]

2. Apparently, Indonesia allows 5 religions, but not atheism

[EvolveOrConvolve]

3. I can't come out of the closet in the U.S.

I can't imagine what would happen were I to do so in Indonesia.

[Starboard Tack]

5. Are you serious?

You feel unable to express your views on religion? I've never had that experience, but I've never tried running for office. That might be a problem.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

6. If I came out of the closet, my family would disown me

And I'd lose my job. That's not an exaggeration at all.

There are places where atheists are truly hated. I posted an anonymous remark on a local paper's message board talking about my atheism, and by the time the thread got shut down I'd received multiple death threats and other creative suggestions about what I could do with myself.

[Starboard Tack]

7. I feel for you. That's outrageous.

I can't begin to imagine where you live. It's a big country and you don't choose your family. I'd consider disowning my family.

[darkstar3]

9. Yeah, America can be a shitty place sometimes.

I lost a job by being out of the closet. I've been ostracized from my family for being out of the closet. There are tiny enclaves of tolerance to be found in the US for such things, but I've never lived in one. Maybe it's because I've never been to California.

[Starboard Tack]

11. That's really fucked up.

Just curious, but when you say out of the closet, do you mean just openly expressing your views on religion with friends and family, or are you talking about engaging in militancy?
I married into a bible belt family of fundies 30 years ago in my first marriage. I made no secret about my views from day one, when my mother-in-law asked me if I believed in Jesus. I said I believed he was a cool revolutionary of his day, but all the rest was hocus pocus. We never discussed the subject again, but 30 years later and 20 years after my divorce from her daughter, we are still close friends and I never felt the slightest ostracism from any of the family. I had no problem with grandma taking my daughter to church with her. I wanted her to see all sides and make her own choices. Needless to say she is not a theist, but is very close to grandma, who still attends her born again Baptist church and is as strong a believer as ever.

[darkstar3]

12. I find your question insulting,

not only because it engages in victim blaming, but also because the term "militant" is a ridiculously vague label applied by theists to atheists when they don't like what the atheists have to say.

I was asked point blank by my boss, who was a deacon in his church, where I went to church and if I believed in Jesus. I explained very calmly and plainly that I did not. Over the next 3 months, he and two other coworkers who attended the same church attempted at every possibility to preach to me. One day at lunch, as the three of them sat across the table from me, quoting bible verses and explaining how clear it should be to me that Jesus existed, I finally engaged. I calmly explained to them several problems with their arguments, noted that you can't expect to use the bible as supporting documentation with someone who doesn't believe in its validity, and stated that I found it odd how intent they were on my conversion.

Two weeks later, after working in the quietest office I've ever seen, I was laid off.

As for the family...all the spouse and I did was make sure we didn't lie. We didn't tell anyone off, we didn't say that anyone was wrong, we didn't even say the word "atheist". All we did was stop doing churchy stuff and respond truthfully that we didn't believe in it anymore when asked. No more. Yet family members have stated that we are now "a den of vipers," they've removed us from the list of available babysitters for our nieces and nephews, and my own mother has stated it's a good thing we don't have any kids. That's just the tip of the iceberg.

Now that you've read the CliffsNotes, do you possibly understand how your question is insulting?

[Starboard Tack]

13. How sad. You have my deepest sympathy.

Having been exposed to militants of all stripes, my question was posed in good faith. Obviously your experience with fundies has been quite different from my own. There was nothing insulting in my question and no insult was intended. Obviously the militancy was coming the other way, from your bible thumping family and coworkers.
Sounds like you might have grounds for a discrimination and harassment suit against your former employer. Assholes like that need to brought down a peg.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

14. I'm not sure why you're using the "militant" language

The word "militant" is used by religionists and faithists as way to demean, delegimitize and attack atheists, and I'm confused about why you would use a hateful term in an Atheists forum. Perhaps you don't understand why we see it as hateful?

[Starboard Tack]

15. Are you serious? You think religionists own the word?

Militant means combative or aggressive. It does not belong to one side or the other. I don't give a damn how others use it to demean. Some are proud of their militancy. I find myself being militant about certain issues, while at other times I abhor militancy.
The purpose of my question was to ascertain how the ostracism began. I have known both militant christians and militant atheists who enjoy getting in each others' faces, which is not my style and apparently it is not Darkstar's style either, but it was the style of his co-workers.
There is nothing hateful about the word and I don't know who "we" is referring to.

[darkstar3]

16. Really? There's nothing hateful about the word?

This is DU, so referring back to some old flame wars, would you consider "bitchy" to be a hateful word when applied to women?

Would you consider "uppity" to be a hateful word when applied to black people?

[Starboard Tack]

17. "bitchy" and "uppity" are derogatory terms. Militant is not.

What is your problem with the word? The negative connotation is in your mind. From reading a few of your other posts, I am getting the feeling that you may be quite militant. You are frequently aggressive and confrontational. That is your style. Why take offense? You're quite good at it. Be proud of it.

[darkstar3]

18. My problem with the word, if I wasn't clear before,

is that it is used in exactly the same way as "bitchy" and "uppity". It is used to deride, and to dismiss, and now you throw it at me because I disagree with you. I won't tell you what your progression here gives me the feeling of...

Now, you have been told that this word is offensive, and I strongly suggest that you drop the defense of it.

[Starboard Tack]

19. I will not use the word again in this group.

Back to my original question to you though. What I wanted to know was, were you being combative with your co-workers over their beliefs? Who brought the subject up in the first place? If they questioned your religious beliefs, or your lack of attendance at church, then they were way out of line.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

20. "Were you being combative..." - now I think I get you

If you don't understand how that question is insulting, then you're perhaps in the wrong group. It's exactly those sorts of insults that we want to get away from when we come here.

[Starboard Tack]

21. How the heck is that question insulting?

I'm trying to understand why this poor guy was being persecuted. He lost his job, for fucksake after being grilled by co-workers about his "faith". A understand I used a word that is considered offensive here and will not use it again. Now I can't ask if he was being "combative"? I've learned not to challenge people's faith. It's their business, but what these guys did was beyond the pale.
If I use words you find insensitive, feel free to let me know, but don't tell me I'm in the wrong group, because that is insulting. I do not submit to inquisitions of any stripe.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

22. It just seems like you're playing the old game of "blame the victim"

Asking if darkstar was being combative suggests that you think the firing was his fault, that somehow he was "asking for it".

It really comes down to how you use a word that makes it offensive. If you would like to describe me as being combative in this thread, go for it. I agree with you. However, to use the word "combative" to ascribe blame to an atheist for being laid off is offensive. Do you understand the difference?

[Starboard Tack]

23. You presume too much. And you are way off base.

Try throwing that bone to a dog that wants to chase it.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

24. You asked how it was insulting and I gave you an answer

If you refuse to hear it, that's your problem. At least you admit that you refuse to "get it".

[iris27]

26. Blame the victim much?

He described the encounter in post #12. The boss clearly brought up the subject first, by asking where he went to church. Then he tried to avoid engaging them on the subject for the next three months.

[ZombieHorde]

4. Super lame. nt

[Armin-A]

8. Well.... makes me feel lucky

seeing things like this make me realize that I am lucky. I wish other people had the same freedoms as me and more

[TigerToMany]

10. disgusting

Then again this could have just happened in America too. Just look what happened to Jessica Alquist for daring to think outside the box:

Also:

http://freethinker.co.uk/2009/08/01/nigerian-atheist-attacked-by-a-mob-of-christians-at-a-child-witchcraft-conference/
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/zombie-muhammad-atheist-attacked-by-muslim-during-halloween-parade/

[ZombieHorde]

25. It's all about how the word is used.

On DU, it is used to give atheists a hard time, and compare us to genocidal maniacs.