Discussion of "spirituality"

[Brainstormy]

my meet-up group (Atheists, Skeptics, Humanists) had a Deep Dive: Serious Thinking on Serious Subjects discussion on spirituality this Tuesday. As moderator, I did a lot of prep, but there were so many surprises. The first was that there was not ONE person in this group of 16 who, ultimately, believed in any type of soul, or after-life or "other life" or genuine connection to a over-arching intelligence, or ANY of the common understandings of "spirit." A few conceded that spirituality, in the Sam Harris sense, could be defined as extraordinary mental states induced by meditation, chanting, mind-altering drugs, self-hypnosis, what have you. But nobody claimed this to be a supernatural experience. A few said that they had identified as "spiritual but not religious" but only as a COVER, in social situations or on Match.com. So funny! And we got into some New Age woo stuff a bit. But basically there was almost unanimous agreement that "spirituality" is a bullshit, vacuous concept.

I expected a lot more push back, and a lot more equivocation. What say ye, had you been there? And I wish you had!

[BigmanPigman]

1. Question: If you believe in the existence of ghosts

since you have experienced it first hand, can you still be an Atheist?

[Brainstormy]

2. well, that didn't come up, but . . .

I would assume that someone who does believe in ghosts would have some philosophical tap-dancing to do in order to still identify as an atheist. I wish, now, I'd asked about this. I'm betting though that I would have gotten no takers.

You do remind me that this is really an immense subject. I thought I'd prepared for everything. Clearly not.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

21. I don't see why one can't easily be an atheist and still believe in ghosts.

Isn't atheism the rejection of deities? I don't believe in either ghosts or deities, but it seems to me ghosts are a totally different category from gods.

[Brainstormy]

23. you're correct, but . . .

I have yet to meet an atheist who believes in anything supernatural. Most atheists are naturalists/materialists. Technically, I suppose you're correct. And this is another idea I wish we'd discussed! Someone did ask, however, if anyone believed in the "soul." No hands went up.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

25. Well, you have now.

I have no doubt that all of the gods most believe people claim to believe in are made up to fulfill some need that I don't seem to have. And while I do pretty much dismiss all supernatural stuff, I think that there are "natural" things we just don't yet understand.

For instance, television or radio seem pretty supernatural to me because, though I get that they are scientific realities I don't really understand the technical details of how they work. And, I'm sure they'd seem magical to the people you showed them to if you could take them back in time 50 years or so before they were invented.

Also, there are some examples of what might be called telepathy that happened either to me or to people close to me, that I have trouble dismissing.

[Irish_Dem]

26. What do you think ghosts are? Who or what are they? nt

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

28. I don't know a thing about ghosts.

I don't think they exist. If anything at all outside of people's imagination, I guess they'd be some remnants of energy. But I've never really had much of a reason to give it a whole lot of thought.

You?

[Irish_Dem]

29. Yes, I agree, they are remnants of energy. That is one way to put it. nt

[Brainstormy]

3. But do you?

believe in ghosts?

[Susan Calvin]

7. Define "Experienced it firsthand." nt

[Susan Calvin]

8. Reason I ask.

My mom described an after-death experience. My dad came to me in a dream the night before his funeral.

Do I believe in ghosts, or life after the physical body's death?

Nope.

[Doreen]

4. So does this mean your group bundles all religions and spiritual philosophies together?

Are they all equal bullshit? I am Buddhist and always thought those who worship a deity are bullshit. I am not upset ( no reason to be ) just curious.

[Susan Calvin]

12. Don't like worship. Love philosophy. nt

[Doreen]

14. That is why I like Buddhism.

[Brainstormy]

17. Only in the sense

that we think all religions are nonsense. And, apparently, no one in my group would give any credence to the notion of a "spiritual philosophy" except n that Sam Harris sense of attempting to expand your consciousness through various techniques. We have a few Zen practitioners but I don't believe they think anything supernatural results from the practice.

[wasupaloopa]

5. I agree with them. I believe all religious belief was invented by man.

We can't really know that god exists we can only believe in god.

I don't think that if god exists or not really matters.

I have been practicing Buddhism after being raised Catholic. I like the way Buddhism explains how to live a life being good for others and yourself without the need for a Deity.

[Susan Calvin]

10. I like Buddhism,

And agree that it doesn't matter if what people call/believe in god exists.

But what some people talk and do about it sure does.

[Irish_Dem]

27. Yes that is the bottom line. How do you live your life. What kind of person are you.

The rest is just window dressing.

[Binkie The Clown]

6. I'll pray for you.

[Brainstormy]

18. knock yourself out :). n/t

[LakeArenal]

9. If Jesus was a Jew

Then definitely Christianity is made up.
He didn’t expect people to worship him.

I believe Jesus existed. I simply don’t believe in divinity.

As for ghosts, my partner had a ghostly experience. It was neither divine nor evil Just trapped energy. I don’t see why ghosts necessarily prove the existence of god. Just another yet unexplained phenomenon.

For me spirituality is feeling a connection with the invisible forces in nature. Understanding those forces is the pursuit of man.

[Susan Calvin]

11. If only all people viewed it as literature and history.

But way too many view it as a way to manipulate people and gain power.

[Brainstormy]

19. our group seems pretty divided

on Jesus as historical figure and Jesus as myth. More lean towards myth. We did talk about expressing that desire for connection to nature as spirituality. None of us believe in anything supernatural, so that rules out ghosts, but I agree, that if ghosts did exist they wouldn't necessarily prove god.

[BigmanPigman]

13. I like the unexplained phenomenon definition. It suits me.

It was not evil, spooky, ethereal, or out of body/dead but came back to life, etc. My experiences were after my dog died at home for about 10 days. I heard, felt, and saw things that were her sounds and things she did in different places around my apt. during her life. An old boyfriend had several different experiences and some of his old friends backed him up. Several teachers who were docents at "America's most haunted house, the Whaley House in San Diego" told a few of us visiting teachers some of the experiences they had when they stayed at the house one night. I was just curious if your group ever brought this subject up.

[Doreen]

15. I do believe in those things.

Everything is made up of energy and energy never dies it just goes somewhere else and it is the existing energy that produces what we may see, feel, and hear. That is how I explain it. It may not be the most accurate way but it hangs on quantum physics. I like that the Buddhists very much believe in quantum physics because it is science.

[Brainstormy]

16. we didn't but

I had recently encountered a very interesting explanation for it in Michael Shermer's The Believing Brain. You might like it. BTW, I had similar experiences after my grandmother died.

[BigmanPigman]

20. I saw something similar on PBS.

The scientists were able to recreate similar experiences of dying and coming back, etc from seeing tunnels, white light, looking down at your body,... It was interesting.

[defacto7]

22. I think our brains have perceptions and recall

that we underestimate too many times. It's an amazing bit of evolution with survival, memory, emotion, sensation, calculation and imagination all interwoven like a hologram. Our ability to recall sensations and reconstitute them as visual or audible experiences kind of covers the spiritual and ghostly feelings for me.

My most beloved dog still seemed with me and around me for months after he died but I always knew it was the sensations and memories and my expectations of him being there that I was remembering. For six months after my dad died he appeard in my dreams every night. We would talk, I'd ask questions which he answered, make jokes... after a few months, he was still there but never looked at me, then he'd be there but we didn't communicate and finally one night I saw him with glowing eyes, he walked through a door and never returned to my dreams. I know it was my minds way of dealing with deep grief and loss through memories of his personality, form and sound.

I don't belittle the fact that people see and hear things of loved ones, they are as real as if they really were there. I just think it's our vast mind doing its job of survival and healing.

It makes the saying that "they continue to live in our hearts" a very real thing.

[Brainstormy]

24. well said,

and I agree.

[trotsky]

30. I hate that "spiritual" is such a loaded word.

It's closely associated with religion even though it shouldn't be.

There are many experiences in life that one might call "spiritual" because they are emotionally moving. The birth of one's child. A beautiful nature scene. Etc. But appreciating these things and being moved by them doesn't mean anything more than that. It's not leaving the door open a crack for the magical sky daddy, which is what the religionists want it to mean.

[Brainstormy]

32. Exactly

It's a great metaphor and about the only thing we've got for describing the ineffable--the indescribable, but I hate that it's associated with religion, woo, and all the other baggage.

[RussBLib]

31. and there are still so many things we don't understand

We have a long way to go towards fully understanding the brain, which could account for the sensation of "feeling" or hearing a loved one (human or pet) after that loved one has passed. The brain can probably also account for the "white light/peace" syndrome of near-death experiences. We know the brain can hallucinate. Ghosts could in fact be ethereal manifestations of our brains.

Sometimes I lean towards a "universal mind" idea, a free-floating invisible cloud of consciousness, perhaps another dimension of reality that we cannot perceive. It could be that when we are born, the universal spark is ignited and when we die, we merge again into the universal mind. It's a rich vein of horror and science fiction, and none of it need be caused by a supernatural "creator".

But no, I don't buy the whole "soul" idea either, other than we are the sum of our experiences, whether or not we can remember them.

Good post.