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Mon Feb 8, 2021, 11:41 AM

Faith in humanity and faith in god are the exact same thing

An online friend recently posted the above comment. I have chosen not to challenge it, yet, but it "feels" very wrong to me.

I think, in large part, he is simply trying not to alienate any of his (obviously religious) readers/followers.

What would be your reply to that?

TIA.

19 replies, 1145 views

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Arrow 19 replies Author Time Post
Reply Faith in humanity and faith in god are the exact same thing (Original post)
RussBLib Feb 8 OP
5X Feb 8 #1
Mattgoetznolovefromm Feb 8 #2
Duppers Feb 8 #3
mountain grammy Feb 8 #4
RussBLib Feb 8 #5
sanatanadharma Feb 8 #6
safeinOhio Feb 8 #9
RussBLib Feb 9 #16
TwilightZone Feb 8 #7
Alacritous Crier Feb 8 #8
RussBLib Feb 9 #17
TwilightZone Feb 9 #18
safeinOhio Feb 8 #10
Mr.Bill Feb 8 #11
joshdawg Feb 8 #12
Warpy Feb 9 #13
Freelancer Feb 9 #14
RussBLib Feb 9 #15
Voltaire2 Feb 15 #19

Response to RussBLib (Original post)

Mon Feb 8, 2021, 11:48 AM

1. Humanity is power of the people not of the diety. n/t

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Response to RussBLib (Original post)

Mon Feb 8, 2021, 12:11 PM

2. My reply would be the obvious one.

Hogwash

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Response to Mattgoetznolovefromm (Reply #2)

Mon Feb 8, 2021, 12:13 PM

3. Excellent choice.

👍

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Response to Mattgoetznolovefromm (Reply #2)

Mon Feb 8, 2021, 12:14 PM

4. Perfect!

Welcome to DU A&A!

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Response to Mattgoetznolovefromm (Reply #2)

Mon Feb 8, 2021, 12:21 PM

5. Ha! That was pretty much my gut reaction. Nt

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Response to RussBLib (Original post)

Mon Feb 8, 2021, 12:25 PM

6. The old philosophy major in me asks questions...and gives nonsense answers

Ask questions to avoid the common situation of people happily using the same words to talk about the 'said to be the same' thing, while missing that they do not define the words the same. Further, what is the connotation of the denotation?

Humanity, God and faith are concept words without any objective "is-ness" to which one can point and none of the five primary senses can reveal them.

Humanity may refer to a collective-concept of multiple people or to an attitude (way of being) manifested (or not) by individuals.
And don't get me started on "God" as a word/concept.
Faith too fails to clearly define itself. Many are those who lack faith in themselves, always expecting to fall down, while they walk in the faith that gravity never goes away and they need not fear that their next step will be into an up-fall.

As I am taught, the essence of humans is that they exist and are conscious. Those who have 'faith' in God say God exists and is conscious. Generally, God is also said to be infinite, limitless, unbounded, unconstrained.
Are existence and consciousness separate qualities that God may or may not have? Are not both more like essential nature than 'add-ons'?

Now my take on the OP question: An infinite-existent-consciousness (God) can not exist along with a separate outside, other-than, not-god. Any 'other' something existing separate from the infinite, negates the infinity (limitlessness).

I have total faith in my conscious existence, needing no proof or second opinion. My existence nature and my conscious nature are self-evident.
I am not certain I have the same faith in the humanity of humanity.
However if God is conscious-being, then faith is not needed because conscious-being can not be negated.

I thank the unseen and unknown for giving me a heart.

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Response to sanatanadharma (Reply #6)

Mon Feb 8, 2021, 12:48 PM

9. I like to look at in terms of "Locus of Control". Psychology Major here.

Organizational psychology and religion[edit]
Other fields to which the concept has been applied include industrial and organizational psychology, sports psychology, educational psychology and the psychology of religion. Richard Kahoe has published work in the latter field, suggesting that intrinsic religious orientation correlates positively (and extrinsic religious orientation correlates negatively) with internal locus.[37] Of relevance to both health psychology and the psychology of religion is the work of Holt, Clark, Kreuter and Rubio (2003) on a questionnaire to assess spiritual-health locus of control. The authors distinguished between an active spiritual-health locus of control (in which "God empowers the individual to take healthy actions"[38]) and a more passive spiritual-health locus of control (where health is left up to God). In industrial and organizational psychology, it has been found that internals are more likely to take positive action to change their jobs (rather than merely talk about occupational change) than externals.[39][32] Locus of control relates to a wide variety of work variables, with work-specific measures relating more strongly than general measures.[40] In Educational setting, some research has shown that students who were intrinsically motivated had processed reading material more deeply and had better academic performance than students with extrinsic motivation.[41]

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Response to sanatanadharma (Reply #6)

Tue Feb 9, 2021, 12:21 PM

16. a lot to chew on there

I still have faith in humanity, despite the frequent senseless killings, rapings, and brutalities. These kinds of behaviors go back centuries. Trump shook up my faith in humanity a little bit, but the majority of Americans came thru and did the right thing.

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Response to RussBLib (Original post)

Mon Feb 8, 2021, 12:27 PM

7. One is observable and quantifiable; the other isn't.

Faith in humanity could be backed by a wide variety of factors, many involving quantifiable data and observation.

Faith in God requires, well, faith in the absence of same.

The following quote is about science, but it makes the point I'm trying to convey.

"Science adjusts its views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that belief can be preserved.

― Tim Minchin (one of my favorite people in the world)

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Response to TwilightZone (Reply #7)

Mon Feb 8, 2021, 12:33 PM

8. That's a great quote!

Thanks.

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Response to TwilightZone (Reply #7)

Tue Feb 9, 2021, 12:25 PM

17. love Tim

it seems so silly to me that so many still place so much faith in something that has let them down every single time. Throughout history.

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Response to RussBLib (Reply #17)

Tue Feb 9, 2021, 12:34 PM

18. In my experience with friends and acquaintences...

God or whatever preferred alternative is generally given credit for the good and the bad is lumped into a catchall like "mysterious ways" or "God has a plan" or "there's a purpose for everything". Or Satan or equivalent is given the blame.

So, faith is maintained. Convenient, that.

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Response to RussBLib (Original post)

Mon Feb 8, 2021, 12:59 PM

10. Ethical movement

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Ethical movement, also referred to as the Ethical Culture movement, Ethical Humanismor simply Ethical Culture, is an ethical, educational, and religious movement that is usually traced back to Felix Adler (18511933).[2]Individual chapter organizations are generically referred to as "Ethical Societies", though their names may include "Ethical Society", "Ethical Culture Society", "Society for Ethical Culture", "Ethical Humanist Society", or other variations on the theme of "Ethical".

The Ethical movement is an outgrowth of secular moral traditions in the 19th century, principally in Europe and the United States. While some in this movement went on to organise for a non-congregational secular humanist movement, others attempted to build a secular moral movement that was emphatically "religious" in its approach to developing humanist ethical codes, in the sense of encouraging congregational structures and religious rites and practices. While in the United States, these movements formed as separate education organisations (the American Humanist Association and the American Ethical Union), the American Ethical Union's British equivalents, the South Place Ethical Society and the British Ethical Union consciously moved away from a congregational model to become Conway Hall and Humanists UK respectively. Subsequent "godless" congregational movements include the Sunday Assembly, whose London chapter has used Conway Hall as a venue since 2013.

Ethical Society pretty much sums up my view.

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Response to RussBLib (Original post)

Mon Feb 8, 2021, 01:26 PM

11. They may serve a similar purpose,

but one of them is more grounded in reality.

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Response to RussBLib (Original post)

Mon Feb 8, 2021, 11:20 PM

12. Nah! Faith in humanity is one thing.

Faith in a "sky fairy" is altogether different.
apples and oranges

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Response to RussBLib (Original post)

Tue Feb 9, 2021, 02:22 AM

13. Most of our fellow humans within our larger culture have predictable patterns of behavior

but I wouldn't call that "faith in my fellow man" because some of them are assholes and I know a certain small fraction will be assholes and I always have an escape plan in case they're assholes to me.

Likewise, seeing the sun pop over the mountains to the east and disappear behind the mesa to the west is a predictable pattern, so predictable I assume it's the case even when it's cloudy, as it gets brighter and then darker. I wouldn't call that faith, either.

You see faith in action with gamblers who think 4 decent throws of the dice signal a hot streak or among people who think positive thinking alone will land them a glamorous job, or people who really think prayer will move mountains even though we've always had to resort to picks, shovels, and explosives to do the job.

You'll never get a religious person to see the difference, though. It's just not how they're wired.

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Response to RussBLib (Original post)


Response to Freelancer (Reply #14)

Tue Feb 9, 2021, 12:18 PM

15. for much of recorded history....

god IS the reason people went around raping and killing and burning. But we all know that. And I am also sure that people who lived before being exposed to the "good book" did their share of raping, killing, and burning. Theoretically, things are better now. We have laws now around the world that constrain such behavior, however ineffectively.

But we certainly see it doesn't take much to cause a religious flareup to claim many lives.

Thanks for your comment. My friend has published some wonderful writings over the last many months, and I am not about to disconnect with him because he may be religious or said something silly. Prior to his comment, he and I traded a few PM's about a meme he had published. It was about a couple of members of a family helping out members of the first responders with the tag, "My faith is restored." I questioned if he meant faith in humanity or faith in god. He eventually replied they are the same thing, and the next day he published the comment I noted in the OP.

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Response to RussBLib (Original post)

Mon Feb 15, 2021, 01:17 PM

19. I mean other than 'humanity' actually exists and can be observed

he has a point.

I actually am not sure what your friend means by 'faith in humanity'. I, for example, have a PT Barnum like faith, or perhaps an HL Mencken like faith, that humans, on the whole, are massively stupid and will make stunningly stupid choices. Unlike faith in gods, there is lots of evidence to support my beliefs.

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