I believe in Karma

[OriginalGeek]

Sort of. I guess I actually believe in my definition of karma but since it seems everyone else gets to redefine everything else (see: christians vs true christians vs real christians, et al...) (did I use "et al" correctly there? Grammar karma gonna get me!) I reckon I get to make my own definition of karma too.

I do not believe in some mystical force with a tally sheet. I think the universe has better things to do than keep track of all the dumb shit I do and place a mark in the "Yeah, I owe him one for that" column.

But I do believe I make my own karma. I think if you surround yourself with positive people who share your goals and are on your side then you have a better shot of good things happening to you. If you keep your thoughts (rationally) positive and have a good attitude about life and living it to to the fullest then you will trend towards having a fulfilling life.

Conversely, if you surround yourself with negative people who do bad things you are more likely to have bad shit happen to you. If you fill your mind with hate and wallow in that kind of environment you will trend towards rotten shit happening overall.

I know this is no great revelation but I thought I'd share it on the off chance that you folks ever see me say something in another part of DU about karma. If I comment on a story about bad shit happening to a bad guy and say "karma" got him - this is what I mean.

Not that other thing.

I hope karma isn't mad.

[Arkansas Granny]

1. Yep. What goes around, comes around, so make sure that what goes around from

you is good stuff and that's mostly what comes back to you. I've lived by that philosophy for a long time.

[Lionessa]

4. Goes around comes around though isn't at all true in real life, cute but useless since

assholes and bullies still rule from local to international, in families, businesses, and government.

[Arkansas Granny]

24. It certainly isn't a hard and fast rule and there are some who never get what they deserve.

I still find in my personal experience that when I do good things, good things happen to me more often than bad. That's not to say that bad things have not happened in my life, but I have had many more good times than bad.

[JNelson6563]

33. I've seen it happen.

Just not nearly enough!

Julie

[Lionessa]

2. I believe you are discussing Community, not Karma. So rather than re-define a

perfectly well defined word like Karma, why not use the already available word that matches your definition...

Community, or associations, or social environment, I'm sure there are more.

[OriginalGeek]

6. Well, for one thing

I don't accept the perfectly well defined (mystical) version as being anything. So since I don't believe that exists I swiped the word for my own purposes.


And I'm not saying "Don't worry, be happy". Rotten shit can and does still happen to everyone at some time or another. Shit that is beyond your control is indefensible. Chunk of toilet ice falls on your head from an airplane passing over? No amount of feel good vibes was gonna stop that. But there are things you can control. I try to minimize my contact with shit-heels and maximize my contact with cool people.

I have a lot more fun than my little brothers who leave everything up to god. God's doing a lousy job of keeping up with their various house payments and child support payments and general life necessities.

[Lionessa]

7. Yes, but we atheists don't usually need to re-define their terms in order to be understood,

that what makes us Atheists so grand, we don't need no Karma or Heaven or Holy Trinity. No need to re-define, nor re-identify. Very simply Karma, God, JesusChrist, Athena, Zeus, the Devil, don't exist. Period, no need to ridicule their terms, they do that fine by themselves.

[OriginalGeek]

9. Hmmm, I'll have to ponder that

It didn't occur to me I might be ridiculing their term.

I can see christians getting upset by me taking their terminology but I'm not aware of any relevant christian sect that uses karma like Hindus do (that's right isn't it? The tally karma thing is a hindu thing?) and the (very) few hindus I've known were pretty laid back and I think would approve of me using whatever terms they have to fulfill myself.

[Lionessa]

10. I couldn't give a flying f' what the Hindi think of your re-definition,

I'm offended that an atheist feels not only the need to re-define a religious term so he can adopt it and appear "spiritual" even though he/she isn't, but to also announce it as though it's something good.

F'ing embrace your atheism, don't hide it behind bs like re-defined "Karma", steeped in all the "goodness" of christian society. Atheists embrace reality, and reality suggests that a community such as you seek out are either not connected well with the realities of today's world, or are too shallow emotionally or intellectually to care or be aware of reality.

[OriginalGeek]

11. What the fuck?

I'm not seeking anything spiritual. If this little fun shit offends you that fucking much you need to take a breather and look again becasue I think you have grossly misinterpreted. Or don't. I don't give a fuck either.

Jesus fucking christ.

I'm offended that an atheist feels not only the need to re-define a religious term so he can adopt it and appear "spiritual" even though he/she isn't, but to also announce it as though it's something good.

F'ing embrace your atheism, don't hide it behind bs like re-defined "Karma", steeped in all the "goodness" of christian society. Atheists embrace reality, and reality suggests that a community such as you seek out are either not connected well with the realities of today's world, or are too shallow emotionally or intellectually to care or be aware of reality.

There is not one fucking thing that is unreal about really hanging out with real people you like who share your common interests and goals.

There is nothing fucking unreal about the fact that if you hang out with shit-heels and law-breakers and generally rotten people there is a good chance that you will get caught up in rotten shit.

How in the FUCK is that unreal?

[Lionessa]

12. You suggest perpetual optimism within this ideal community, which in today's reality is just not

something I connect with folks who are aware and alert about the world around them, but rather in a fog similar to the ones religious folks surround themselves with.

[OriginalGeek]

13. No I didn't.

I suggested not hanging out with assholes.


GOddammit that wasn't fair. I don;t know you at all - certainly not well enough to call you that. Sorry.

But you have grossly misinterpreted what I had to say so I guess that's my fault for not expressing it clearly enough.

And you are the one who brought up "community". I'm just talking about for me.

[Lionessa]

19. No doubt, I can be an asshole, as can everyone, and most have been from time to time.

Am I being an asshole now? Well that's an entirely subjective perspective. Now that reality is aptly handled....

You suggest that in re-defining Karma you relate to a community of optimists ("surround yourself with positive people&quot . So, No, you aren't just talking about yourself, you're speaking about yourself amid a community in order to achieve this new definition of Karma that you want to embrace.

If this is not what you meant, then I've no idea what you did mean. It sounds like pie-in-the-sky garbage akin to religiosity to me at this point, as well as an indication of your fear to embrace your atheism, if indeed you are which you seem to imply.

[OriginalGeek]

20. Man I'm just making conversation on a message board.

I'm not trying to embrace anything. I'm not trying to relate to a community.

ALL I am saying is that I choose not to deal with assholes when I can avoid it.

You are reading it way too hard.

Embrace my atheism? I really don't know how I can not believe any harder than I do. I reject all superstitions and all holy texts and all faiths and all belief systems that rely on anything other than reproducible, verifiable data. I don't think it's gonna upset the balance of Atheism if I choose to call my little scheme "karma".

I can name quite a few people in my real life who would laugh heartily at your suggestion that I fear to embrace my atheism and a few less who plain wish I'd shut up about it.

And apparently my definition isn't so new after all.

Has reality been aptly handled? Or do you still think I'm some emotionally and intellectually shallow, foggy brained seeker of some idealistic spirituality? What, in your estimation, is unreal about just trying to do good in this world? Not for some reward in another life or even for atta boys in this one. Just because it feels good to do good and when you feel good life is better than when you feel like shit. I felt like shit all the time when I was fundamentalist christian. Mostly because I was pretty sure it was bullshit but I had been pretty well indoctrinated to feel like shit for thinking that. I'm sure glad I got over that and can now be a True Atheist™ if that's OK with you.

[Lionessa]

21. And I'm just conversing in your conversation.

And it doesn't sound like you're fine with your Atheism. Heading that way is better than not, so carry on, some day you may reflect on this and understand my point, clearly today you don't.

[OriginalGeek]

22. I promise you this

I'll keep it mind. If I'm still here at DU when I get it I'll let you know.



I am fine with my atheism by the way. But you could certainly say I'm not fine with some other people's interpretations of my atheism.
My fundie christian little brothers hate it.
My mom passed away thinking I will not meet her in heaven. (Either way, I suspect she's right)
My dad passed away not really understanding it but he was never mad at me for it.
My grandma on my dad's side passed away knowing I didn't go to church but we never really talked about it. She probably would have accepted it as just another quirk I'd outgrow lol.
Grandma on my mom's side passed away before I even knew I was an atheist so she never had to deal with it.
My grandpa doesn't even know it and he's 91 so I'm not gonna tell him.
My aunt, however, is ecstatic about it - she's the only other atheist I know in my family and even she won't tell grandpa.
My boss is cool with it but he asks me to tone it down at work.
My wife tolerates it (and well, I might add. She doesn't agree with it but we've been married for almost 26 years so I guess she accepts it)


I'm fine with my atheism but I do wish more people I care about IRL were also fine with it.

Maybe I need to get to the point where I really don't give a shit what anyone else thinks about it but if that's what it takes then no, I'm not there yet.

[Lionessa]

23. Just a suggestion.

One way to look at the dilemna, rather than ending your care about what others' think, demand that they care about what you think. Then if they can't find a better community.

[OriginalGeek]

25. It's not always that easy

I'm not trading in my grandpa any time soon. I just don't discuss religion with him. He is, by the way, one of my personal heroes (and a liberal dem but that's not why he is one of my heroes - it's a small part of it). he will always be in my community as long as I get to keep him. I already don't talk to my brothers but maybe once every couple years and a we trade a few jabs on FB when they can dial back the proselytizing but we can't spend much time together because they live in different states and other than having the same parents we have very little in common.

the rest of my community is where I live and work and I like where I live and work and I can mostly avoid the people that I don't like where I live and work. Though I do know people who still can't accept or care about what I think but I have to deal with them until they die. My wife's mom and aunt also live nearby and they have been part of her life all her life and I won't ask her to give them up to make me more comfortable.

So I do what I do to the best of my ability to do it if I can make the world I do live in better in any way then that's cool with me.

[Starboard Tack]

34. Karma and the concept of Karma is not dependent on the existence of a deity.

There is nothing contradictory in being an atheist who believes in Karma. Personally, I find it an extremely important aspect of life, on all levels (animal, human and spiritual) and I think each of us decides how best to interpret Karma and apply it.
You state that certain things don't exist and I accept that, because they obviously don't exist for you. Nothing wrong with that. Life tends to be a very subjective experience and each of us decides what exists or not, especially in the non physical world. Thoughts, ideas, emotions, concepts are all subjective. Because I don't believe in a god does not mean that god does not exist for the next person. I think there was probably a guy named Jesus of Nazareth. I don't believe he was Christ (a messiah), while others do. I don't believe in the Satan, Zeus or Athena, but others may and why should I care?
Karma has nothing to do with theism, really, except for the Hindus and they have lots of deities. Most of us who embrace the concept of Karma see it more as "the law of cause and effect".
You might want to research it a little more.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karma

[dmallind]

3. Nah - it's better to be a pessimist

That way you are either proven right or pleasantly surprised.

Seriously though I am skeptical about these "power of positive thinking" things. Positive thinkers aren't any more successful than negative thinkers - they are just more content with the success they achieve, and thus report more of it when asked.

Consider the most successful people you know either personally or via the media. Are they any more upbeat than the average crowd at a blue-collar bar? There are more psychiatrists in Beverly Hills than in Buffalo.

[Lionessa]

5. I agree entirely. I also prefer a healthy dose of dissatifaction,

because when we are satisfied we tend to stop moving forward, whereas when dissatisfied we continue to look for satisfaction which I believe propels one forward rather than stagnating at satisfied.

[OriginalGeek]

8. I think one can be positively pessimistic

I think it's OK to expect the best but prepare for the worst - that way you aren't taken by surprise.


I expected everyone to love my OP and heap praise upon me. But I was prepared for it to flop - as many of my OPs do. lol

But it doesn't matter - the worst is that everyone hates my OP on a message board. And that didn't happen so I'm already ahead of the game.


And I probably define successful people differently than you do. Beverly hills is full of rich people, not necessarily successful people. Maybe I'm just enough of a hippie to not care about wealth over my happiness - although I wouldn't mind giving wealthy a try lol....

I've been married for almost 26 years (next month!) and we still have a lot of fun and we can pay our bills (knock wood!) and our kids aren't assholes.

I love my job and work in an industry that pays me enough to do some of what I want and gives me the opportunity to grow so I can eventually do more of it. My employer is a large not-for-profit that does good in my community and that makes me happier than you can imagine even though I could take my skills to the private sector and make a bit more.

And I am not satisfied with the current number of democrats in office so I work towards getting more of them elected whenever, wherever, however I can.

And hey, I have you guys to bounce ideas off of!

[2ndAmForComputers]

14. If you do bad shit, the probability that bad shit will happen to you increases.

But with the following caveats:

(1) It's probability. Which means there will be always people who get away with murder. And the bigger the sample, the more likely you are to find one.

(2) It's no more supernatural than the probability of you getting STDs increasing because of unsafe sex.

[OriginalGeek]

16. I thought that was what I was saying

but I guess I didn't express it right. I've offended Lionessa.

[YankeyMCC]

15. Your definition may be closer to the mark

than the common mis-conception that it is some kind of 'tally sheet'

Karma is action, keep choosing harmful acts, increase the likelihood you'll be unhappy. Keep trying to choose good actions you might find yourself being happier in general.

And who you choose to be around certainly is an act. And conversely if you are trying to live well the people around you might just be a little more able or likely to try and live well too...and thus a sort of feedback loop can kick in.

[OriginalGeek]

17. Thank you!

I don't see any reason why I can't apply this action to my personal (and only) life here in this physical world. I don't see any need at at all for a spiritual component or next life component.

[YankeyMCC]

18. Heh - now let's define spiritual :)

To me my life here in this mucky and beautiful world filled with all these other people and animals is sacred and my awareness of that is my 'definition' of spiritual.

[Curmudgeoness]

26. I agree with you.

I didn't think I would....since I really don't believe in what I thought "karma" was. But it is true that if you are kind to people, they tend to be kind to you, etc. Not so much the religious definition of karma, but your actions do come back to you.

I guess that I also use terms that I do not mean in the same way others mean them. I also use the word "karma" as well as saying things like "you have better watch out that lightning doesn't strike you" or "god will get you for that". It is just an expression to me used to convey a certain idea that everyone will understand. I hope that no one takes it literally.

[OriginalGeek]

27. lol I say that stuff all the time too.

usually about myself - there's folks at work who won't stand near me when there's a bad lightning storm outside. It's all fun (except I think a few of them are sincerely worried).


But yeah. Be nice to folks. I'm not perfect - I wasn't nice to Lionessa up thread. I'll try to do better. But be nice to folks and try to associate with people who are also nice to folks. It just ends up working out better usually. And if it doesn't, at least you know you did right.


I think at least a part of what Lionessa was trying to get me to see is be nice but don't be a doormat. I can get behind that. I doubt that was all of it but working on the rest.

[Curmudgeoness]

28. Anyone who treats us like doormats

are not going to be the kind who will be helping you in a time of need. That is good advice. Then again, it doesn't hurt to "be nice" to those people----just don't let them pull you in.

[AlbertCat]

29. If you keep your thoughts (rationally) positive...

... and have a good attitude about life and living it to to the fullest then you will trend towards having a fulfilling life.


Total bunk.

Prove your extraordinary claim.

Statistics?

I will give you if one has a good attitude, one will most likely feel good about one's life. But of course.... like Hamlet says...

"...for there is nothing either good or
bad, but thinking makes it so."

[OriginalGeek]

30. Personal experience brah

Sour people are sour. Happy people are happy. I have mostly been happier when I was happy than when I was sour. Dumb bad shit didn't happen to me as much when I got away from people who habitually did dumb, bad shit.


Nothing more than that. I don't think that's an extraordinary claim at all.



in regards to rationally positive: I can jump out of an airplane with no parachute and think positive thoughts about my landing all the way down. But that wouldn't be rational enough to keep me from becoming paste.


And if you're giving me "good attitude" that's somewhere less than "total bunk". My statement in no way disallows doing what needs to be done even when that is something less than happy and positive. It doesn't abrogate responsibility for making sure you get the necessities taken care of. But you can choose to run around with a sourpuss or you can choose to not. You can choose to assume the worst in every situation or you can choose to not. You can choose to assume the worst in every person or you can choose to not.
I prefer to not as much as possible. As far as I'm concerned every new person I meet is a good guy unless and until they prove otherwise.


And if/when I find out differently, I can positively move my ass on down the line.

[AlbertCat]

31. I guess it's the word "Karma" that bothers me.

But then we're back to the discussion at the top of the thread.

[OriginalGeek]

32. Yeah, I gather that's what torqued Lionessa

I just don't feel it has to have a supernatural or unnatural component to it. It's just a word and as far as I'm concerned it isn't being currently used for anything real or useful so I'm applying it to me.

But I ain't mad at ya if you don't want to.

Mi karma no es su karma.


Lord knows (gulp!) I can say dumb shit off the top of my head without thinking it through and my OPs are certainly no exception so I truly appreciate that chance to examine after the fact if what I say makes any damn sense. I admit I was upset by what Lionessa said but that was just me letting my emotion take over for second. or 2. But I'm still pondering and I'll keep pondering until I either get it or my short attention span finds something shinier.

I NEED you folks for stuff like this. I love my atheist aunt but I don't get to see her that often and she's older and so we don't get into a lot of deep discussions. The only other atheist I know in real life that I have daily contact with is a friend and co-worker who is also a tea-party republican. He never makes any fuckin sense.

SO thank you to all of you who participated in my thread whether you agreed with me or not.