Is there a primer on the Chelsea healthcare incident?

[Renew Deal]

Is there video? And information about what the dispute is...

[cali]

1. Yes, you'll have no problem finding it

[Renew Deal]

3. Except that I have tried

Thanks for the "help" as usual

[Cali_Democrat]

17. That kind of response is what you'll get when you try to enter the echo chamber

Some DUers think that everyone else knows what the latest outrage du jour is, but not everyone follows this shit 24/7.

[Armstead]

20. Look on MSNBC Archives from their 6 pm program last night with Mark Halprin

He and his partner (whose name i forget) explained what was wrong with it, and showed video. A bit superficial but ion the money.

They are very conventional journalists who usually pimp the conventional wisdom. They fact that they called her out for misrepresenting Sanders in such a heavy handed way is telling.

[Renew Deal]

22. I found it

http://www.nbcnews.com/video/chelsea-clinton-takes-aim-at-sanders-over-health-policy-600531523654

The video pretty much speaks for itself unless people don't know what the candidates support. Maybe they're counting on that.

[Armstead]

41. The Clintons are apparently counting on that

Sanders would not dismantle any programs, unless and until an alternative that provided the same services and better were actually put into place.

One can debate whether or not Sanders plans are achievable. But at least the debate should be based on honesty and not cheap misleading scare tactics.

[Wilms]

2. I'll summarize.

Clinton is getting hammered in the polls.

She sends her daughter out to tells lies about Sanders policies.

Gets caught red-handed.

[Renew Deal]

4. Is there a video of her daughter doing this?

And which part is disputed? I've seen articles claiming that she said something untrue and I've seen Van Jones, but I haven't seen the connection made.

[jeff47]

8. The site search box is right up on the top of the page.

Short version: Chelsea Clinton claimed Sanders wants to end Medicare, Medicaid, the ACA and CHIP, claiming that the plan was to just eliminate these programs and leave millions without access to healthcare.

She left out that the Sanders plan is actually replacing Medicaid, the ACA, CHIP and other public health programs with Medicare-for-all.

[arcane1]

47. She actually claimed Sanders wants to "dismantle Medicare"

THAT'S how low they have fallen.

[guillaumeb]

43. Excellent summary. You covered all the relevant points.

What will be the next line of attack? Max Baucus coming back to defend his reasons for refusing to include single payer as an option because it is "creeping socialism"?

[Babel_17]

72. Boiled down, I agree

There's more flavor to it, in the raw, as we can look at how there was an attempt to parse their arguments. Imo that makes it even more wrong, as it shows a laser like focus in trying to twist things. There was nothing casual about this. It was a job that never should have been commissioned, but it was undertaken by pros.

Good job of boiling it down, that will probably be the take-away.

[Agschmid]

5. It boils down to...

Sanders will get rid of Obamacare (true) and will replace it with single payer (true).

But it seems when Chelsea spoke she may have left out that last part.

I think that's it.

[Renew Deal]

7. That's funny

At least the way you put it.

[cali]

11. That is not an honest representation of what she said.

[Agschmid]

15. Okay fix what I said.

I was just trying to answer the question.

[cali]

33. The clip is posted in this thread

[Agschmid]

35. Okay... So fix what I said?

If your going to call me a liar tell me how I lied.

[guillaumeb]

44. It is difficult to fix the truth by lying.

[Agschmid]

63. So are you joining in? If someone wants to tell me how I lied that would be great...

I'm still waiting.

[guillaumeb]

64. My apologies. I am defending you. Obviously I was unclear.

What you wrote, what many wrote here, is true. No amount of "after the fact" spin can compete with video and words.

[Agschmid]

65. Thank you, it's so hard to tell this time of year.

Appreciate it.

[guillaumeb]

66. What is amazing is that a video clip comes out, where the speaker is clearly

trying to frighten people, and the speaker's mother tries to put a different spin on what was clearly said. This incident reminds me of when HRC talked about Sanders as a tax raiser, when what he talked about was raising the tax rates on the wealthy.

But if HRC was talking personally, I suppose that she is correct. People like the Clintons would have to pay more under the Sanders proposal.

[Renew Deal]

16. How is that not honest?

I just watched the video and it's exactly what was said.

http://www.nbcnews.com/video/chelsea-clinton-takes-aim-at-sanders-over-health-policy-600531523654

[GeorgeGist]

71. Lying by omission ...

It,s a thing!

[Armstead]

23. Good sumnmary, though it's that last part that is the important devil in the details.

[Agschmid]

25. It is an important point that's for sure.

I do wonder (haven't googled) if Sanders plan would be state by state? Or federally mandated?

[tularetom]

6. Yes

1. Chelsea Clinton lied about Senator Sanders position on healthcare.

2. She got caught.

3. Hillary Clinton sort of defended her daughter by implying that she was naive but that she understood what Chelsea meant.

4. Nobody in the world was surprised by the whole incident.

5. Those are the facts. There really is nothing to dispute.

[Tanuki]

9. Here is a clip.

http://www.nbcnews.com/video/chelsea-clinton-takes-aim-at-sanders-over-health-policy-600531523654

[Renew Deal]

13. Thanks

I've been on here for 2 days and this is the first time I've seen it.

It looks like the first part is misleading and the second part is fine. The "$19 trillion gap" is legitimate criticism because finding ways to pay for these things is worth debate.

[Dretownblues]

30. That's already been talked about

And discredited as false. Single payer would save everyone money including the government.


[link:http://
http://www.pnhp.org/news/2016/january/medicare-for-all-can-solve-americas-financial-crisis|

[JDPriestly]

48. The $19 trillion gap is a lie. It is taken from a lie printed by the Wall Street Journal

that was debunked on Huffington Post.

That $19 trillion number for starts assumes that no money is being spent on health care today. Sanders' plan would, of course, transfer the money we now spend on for-profit to a nonprofit, perhaps government, perhaps private non-profit type system. Thus that 19 trillion number is way, way, way exaggerated.

(Medicare covers my Kaiser insurance and even the for-profit insurance for some other seniors. We have a choice under Medicare. It is not all just government-run insurance.)

Considering that there would be other savings such as savings due to negotiating pharmaceutical prices should we change to Medicare for all and considering that the exorbitant amounts we pay for healthcare today would be absorbed into the overall costs of Sanders plan and thus not be in addition to but be instead of what we now spend for healthcare, there is a possibility that Sanders plan would save money at least with regard to the limited coverage, the limited number of people insured today.

Any additional cost under Sanders' plan would be due to the fact that Sanders' plan would cover many people who now have no health insurance. Sanders' plan would, pro person, probably be cheaper than our current insurance coverage.

Countries that have single payer insurance spend less on healthcare than we do.

Obamacare is a step in the right direction, but it is in fact very expensive.

Medicare for seniors is quite expensive because it covers people in the most expensive years of their lives when it comes to medical care.

[firebrand80]

10. Here's the quote:

"Sen. Sanders wants to dismantle Obamacare, dismantle the [Children's Health Insurance Program], dismantle Medicare, and dismantle private insurance." "I worry if we give Republicans Democratic permission to do that, we'll go back to an era -- before we had the Affordable Care Act -- that would strip millions and millions and millions of people off their health insurance."

I haven't seen any video, I think it's based accounts from reporters that were present.

[Tanuki]

14. If you look a the clip I posted above, she also said that the Sanders plan would hand it

back to each state to administer, and that would open it up to uneven coverage, in the same way that many red states have not chosen to expand Medicaid under the current system. I don't know if that is true or not, as I haven't seen anyone address this point. Pretty much the only rebuttal I have seen is "she's lying!" So if it isn't true, it would be helpful for the rest of us if someone would post a link. I've looked.

[Agschmid]

21. Yup.

[firebrand80]

24. As I noted in another thread

Bernie hasn't said specifically what he would do, so he opens himself up to allowing others to define his plan for him.

[Armstead]

28. Hillary said that....A variartion of the same lie

[Tanuki]

42. I know she did. But my question remains, is it true or not true that the Sanders plan

would return administration of the proposed federal, single payer plan back to each state, in the same way that the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services currently are state-administered? If not or if so, please (someone) provide a link. If true, Chelsea may actually have a point when she says that it would open it up to unequal coverage, just as citizens in red states are getting the shaft under the current system because their governors and legislators are stupidly refusing federal funds. It's not helpful or informative to simply dismiss it as a lie, without providing actual information to show that it is. And again, I have googled this myself to no avail.

[Armstead]

46. It would be similar an expansion of Medicare

Probably revised. But it would be a Federal system. Even if administered by states, it would be mandated federally, not subject to the whims of particular state politics.

[Tanuki]

55. Do you (or anyone) have a link to the specifics of this? I would like to educate myself about it.

As you know, the Medicaid expansion has been a nightmare for people in some of the red states, not to mention the hospitals that provide free care and who could be getting more federal funds if their local right wing legislators weren't so willfully obstructive.

[Armstead]

60. Details like that would be hashed out as part of the process....

Since Sanders basica goal is 100 prcentage coverage for everyone, one presumes that would include mechanisms to enforce that.

However, if you really want to know more specifically, I suggest visit Bernies site, and also visit an unofficial supporters/ site feelthebern and read the proposals. If that doesn't answer it to your satiusfactiobn, write an e-mail to the campaign for an explanation (and suggest they add an explanation).

You can also Google it.

[ljm2002]

62. Here's what Sanders had to say to CNN...

...per this link:

http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/presidential-races/265719-sanders-chelsea-clintons-healthcare-claims-absolutely

Speaking on CNN moments after the State of the Union address on Tuesday night, Sanders said Chelsea Clinton has not read his healthcare plan, and called her claims that he wants to get rid of ObamaCare and “dismantle” Medicare and private insurance “absolutely wrong.”

"Unfortunately, I have to say, as much as I admire Chelsea, she didn't read the plan,” the Vermont senator said. “What she should know is that we’re the only major country on Earth that doesn’t guarantee healthcare to all people as a right, and yet we end up spending far more per capita on healthcare as do the people of any other nation.”

Sanders, who voted for ObamaCare and helped write some of it, said that under his Medicare For All plan, everyone would have health insurance and middle-class families would save thousands of dollars.

He disputed the notion, put forward by Chelsea Clinton, that his plan would give outsized influence to state governors, a majority of whom are Republicans.

“She is absolutely wrong,” Sanders said. “This is a plan that works in 50 states in this country, whether you have conservative Republicans or progressive Democrats. It's a national program.”

[Tanuki]

68. Thank you, ljm, I hope it will be equally applied all across the country.

But I would like to read what it actually says, including the specifics of how it is to be administered. I don't think anyone would have anticipated how Republican governors and legislators have undermined the well-being of their citizens by refusing ACA Medicaid expansion funds. Who in their right minds would turn down "free money," that has already been sent to Washington in taxes, returning to the state in the form of healthcare dollars? And yet that is what is happening here in Tennessee and elsewhere. I would be interested in knowing how that would be avoided, as the ACA is also a national program that should be working everywhere.

[riversedge]

29. You do not know--nor do I because Sanders has not put out his health plan as he said he would--

He has old information on his campaign website.

[arcane1]

52. "dismantle Medicare" is a bold-faced lie, period.

Sanders wants to expand Medicare to everyone, which is the exact opposite of "dismantling" it.

[Tanuki]

57. But my question is about returning administration of the Medicare expansion to the states.

Nobody has really been able to point me to a link where I can read about that.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

27. It sounds like

she is stating that she is afraid that Bernie advocating for his plan would be giving Republicans an incentive and/or "permission" to simply repeal ACA, Medicare, etc. without replacing it with anything better. While I'm sure that this is not what Bernie is talking about, it's beyond crystal clear that Republicans in Congress would gladly repeal ACA without hesitation- and without a viable (or any) replacement plan and have, in fact, voted to do so. Of course, "President Sanders" would never agree to sign a bill that repealed ACA without replacing it with SP or an equally viable alternative plan but neither would the Republicans in Congress EVER agree to work with him to replace ACA with SP or any other viable alternative plan. It sounds like she made some very clunky and perhaps not well-thought out statements (and maybe even not factually honest ones) but the sudden outburst of crowing over her statements and the predictions of doom that this supposedly portends for the Clinton campaign seems a bit......premature.

[Armstead]

38. It was a lie that -- Sanders aside -- further confuised the whole issue

We don't need democrats adding to the scare tactics of the GOP by demonizing public single payer alternatives to the rotten status quo as too "scary" to even think about.

Sometimes candidates should think beyond tryi9ng to beat up their challengers, and think about the larger picture, and how their words affect the larger climate and public attitudes about issues.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

45. Getting Single Payer passed is going to be quite difficult to begin with

They couldn't even get it off the ground in his progressive home state of Vermont, to say nothing of getting it through a Republican Congress (or even a marginally Democratically-controlled one). A transition to SP will most likely be a quite gradual one.

[Armstead]

51. If true that confirms my point

Despite the tugs and pulls of campaigns, Democratic candidates should not be adding to the GOP and corporate insurance distortions about public coverage.

We need clarity, and uniform defense of that concept, not lies that both confuse and scare the public away from the concept.

[joshcryer]

54. It worked for the GOP in 2010.

Very likely trying to sway the elder vote.

FUD sells.

[joshcryer]

12. She took a dumb talking point and added her own twist.

The talking point was that Single Payer gets rid of all the health programs. Chelsea added dismantle to the talking point and it blew up from there. Clinton is now back peddling and trying to push a more convoluted talking point.

Their problem was that it was a dumb talking point to begin with. All they got to do is quote Sanders admitting that they didn't have the votes for single payer much less the public option. But they took this convoluted argument path that makes no sense.

The thing is I don't think this is worth getting all up in arms about and can backfire.

[Renew Deal]

19. I like the way Van Jones put it

That it doesn't make sense to use Chelsea in this manner. She's being used as an attack dog and on some level she has no credibility on any issue.

[joshcryer]

31. Two ways to look at it.

Chelsea got the taking point packet and botched it (the attacks weren't meant to be done by her, just talking points to reply with in private conversation with constituents).

Clinton's campaign is being stupid.

Leaning toward the latter.

[Renew Deal]

39. Me too

She's not dumb

[arcane1]

59. I think it's a lame attempt at wooing the millennial women she's losing.

And it failed.

[kath]

18. basically: She. Lied. Her. Ass. Off.

[riversedge]

26. What Chelsea Clinton said about Sanders dismantling Medicare, #aca etc and...

Sanders proposal.

Technically, all the health programs would be dismantled and merged into on Universal plan. The cost was not discussed as far as I know nor HOW this would be done. Be the jest of Sanders plan is that each state would run its own program. We have seen what the Red state governors have done already. And Why didn't the Sanders camp dispute any of the specifics


Chelsea Clinton Accuses Sanders of Trying to "Dismantle Obamacare"

—By Pema Levy
| Tue Jan. 12, 2016 5:13 PM EST

http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2016/01/chelsea-clinton-bernie-sanders-universal-health-care-plan



...............Chelsea-->"Sen. Sanders wants to dismantle Obamacare, dismantle the CHIP program, dismantle Medicare, and dismantle private insurance," she said, according to MSNBC. "I worry if we give Republicans Democratic permission to do that, we’ll go back to an era—before we had the Affordable Care Act—that would strip millions and millions and millions of people off their health insurance."

Chelsea Clinton is technically right: Millions of Americans would lose their current health insurance plans, which would be replaced by enrollment in a coverage program available to all (except, perhaps, undocumented immigrants). But it's unclear how a plan that would make almost everyone eligible for coverage would strip millions of health care coverage, which is what Clinton seemed to be saying. (The Clinton campaign did not immediately respond to a request for comment.)

Sanders' health care plan, which he outlined in legislation in 2013, would replace the current piecemeal approach to coverage through many different programs—private insurance, Medicare, Medicaid, CHIP—with government-provided coverage for everyone. As with the Affordable Care Act's health care exchanges, Sanders' 2013 bill relies on states to develop single-payer plans. But as the Sanders campaign stresses, any state that refused to set up a singe-payer system would have the federal government step in and do it. So unlike with the current Medicaid expansion, states could not opt out of "Berniecare."

"It is time for the United States to join the rest of the industrialized world and provide health care as a right to every man, woman, and child," Sanders campaign spokeswoman Arianna Jones said in a statement responding to Chelsea Clinton's attack. "A Medicare-for-all plan will save the average middle-class family $5,000 a year. Further, the Clinton campaign is wrong. Our plan will be implemented in every state in the union regardless of who is governor.".................



And.............


Dan Merica Verified account
?@danmericaCNN

Dan Merica Retweeted Tamara Keith

Sanders' campaign manager says that his healthcare pay-for is "not necessarily" releasing "before the caucuses."
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<


Alex Seitz-Wald Verified account
?@aseitzwald

Under attack, team Sanders puts out chart explaining pay-fors. But no mention of health care, his biggest plan.







Response:


Ann O'Leary
?@Ann_OLeary

Ann O'Leary Retweeted Alex Seitz-Wald

Maybe b/c he recalls VT plan would have hiked payroll taxes by 11.5% & income taxes by 9%!!! http://www.vox.com/2014/12/22/7427117/single-payer-vermont-shumlin?utm_campaign=vox&utm_content=feature%3Atop&utm_medium=social&

[Agschmid]

34. State run programs are NOT universal healthcare.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

36. How would Sanders ensure that states couldn't opt-out of "Berniecare"?

ACA didn't technically allow for states to opt-out of Medicaid expansion but I believe that SCOTUS ruled in 2012 that states could (and many did initially and eagerly). Wouldn't SCOTUS- assuming current composition- take the same hatchet to Bernicare- assuming it were to come to fruition (except, in this case, the consequences would be even more dire)?

[riversedge]

70. We do not know because Sanders really has no put out any details of

the proposal. The specifics are missing as is how it would be paid for.

[leftofcool]

32. And yet the Bernie folks think Obama will endorse him.

As though Obama would endorse anyone who would try to dismantle his legacy ACA.

[cali]

37. Uh, hardly. You follow Hillary and Chelsea in making false claims.

[whatchamacallit]

40. You apparently understand nothing about Bernie supporters

Most of us don't care if Obama endorses Sanders. It would be welcome, but it's immaterial.

[joshcryer]

49. Um, I care very much...

...that Sanders gets the full backing of the party including its leader for the past 7 years.

[whatchamacallit]

50. Are you a Sanders supporter?

[joshcryer]

53. Yes.

I predicted the surge months ago.

(And in fact just as Sanders was having a dip in the polls after the data breach I predicted it would go back up.)

[whatchamacallit]

56. I didn't know this

I'm glad to hear it.

There's little doubt Obama's imprimatur is meaningful, but as it's not the criteria for choosing my candidate, and I have no control over it, I can't fret about it.

[Ron Green]

58. Oboy, a thread in which Hillary apologists can

double down on egregious bullshit posing as fair campaign rhetoric.

To use our long struggle for universal and accessible health care in this way is just churlish.

[Renew Deal]

61. Insubordinate and churlish

[sadoldgirl]

67. I just saw a very short part of a video from 08 with HRC

saying that no Democrat should attack another about
universal healthcare.

Seems another evolution has taken place.

[cheapdate]

69. As it looked to me,

Hillary Clinton advanced an argument that trying to implement Bernie Sanders' master plan for health care carried with it a potential risk of leaving millions uninsured. In her view, the speculative risk was one of politics and process. Bernie's plan, as she explained it, involved dissolving the existing national health care programs and reformulating them all into one national health care agency -- a single payer, health care for all, program that would replace the PPACA, Medicaid, etc. She argued that in the process of trying to enact such sweeping change, existing programs could fall away and leave millions in the lurch.

Chelsea was speaking somewhere and gave a clipped and mangled version of her mother's argument, leaving out the details and proclaiming simply that Bernie's health care plan would put millions out in the cold.

A progressive political program somewhere did a segment showing clips of both Hillary and Chelsea. The commentators talked breathlessly about the "unprecedented" and "historic" nature of Chelsea's allegedly "lying" speech.

A big DU thread ensued.