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bigtree

(85,996 posts)
Wed Jan 13, 2016, 04:23 PM Jan 2016

Sen. Sanders voted for a dangerously flawed tea party bill Tuesday

...supporters can post all they want about the need to 'audit' the Federal Reserve, but supporting Rand Paul's bill was the absolute wrong way to go about it.

The issue isn't whether the Fed should be audited, the issue Tuesday was whether to support a Rand Paul, tea party bill that he's been parading around for his conservative allies.


from Salon:

Like his father, Paul is a monetary-policy paranoiac, the sort of person who goes on about the debasement of the dollar and flirts with the idea of linking our currency to a commodity. (Though not necessarily gold. Because, you know, the man's not that crazy.) He has referred to the Fed as an “an enormous creature, a creature that creates its own money,” as if he were describing Cthulhu with a printing press. He has fretted about Weimar-like hyperinflation just around the corner, even though prices are rising at less than 2 percent per year. He has delivered a factually challenged rant suggesting the Fed would be considered insolvent if we judged it like a normal bank (it wouldn’t be).*

While Paul acknowledges that the Fed is, in fact, already audited—its books are verified by Deloitte & Touche, and Congress can and does request separate audits by the Government Accountability Office—he says that the scrutiny isn’t enough, that those are “a bunch of fake audits.” Sure, you can go online and see every asset on the Fed’s balance sheet, including its serial tracking number. But, Paul says, that doesn’t tell readers “who they bought them from or whether they were bought at fair market price or whether they were bought at a haircut and whether or not there were any conflicts of interests in the buying and selling.”

That argument might be more convincing if Paul’s bill were focused just on conflicts of interest. But it’s not. In large part, it’s geared toward letting the Government Accountability Office “audit” the Fed’s monetary policy decision-making, one of the few areas of the central bank’s business it’s not allowed to assess. In plainer language, it gives the GAO the power to produce a lengthy report criticizing the central bank’s handling of interest rates, which might theoretically put political pressure on it to change its policy direction. In a small but meaningful way, it would chip away at the central bank’s independence.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2015/02/24/the_absurdity_of_rand_paul_s_quest_to_audit_the_fed_if_he_succeeds_it_will.html


Paul Krugman:

Right now, the most obvious manifestation of money madness is Senator Rand Paul’s “Audit the Fed” campaign. Mr. Paul likes to warn that the Fed’s efforts to bolster the economy may lead to hyperinflation; he loves talking about the wheelbarrows of cash that people carted around in Weimar Germany. But he’s been saying that since 2009, and it keeps not happening. So now he has a new line: The Fed is an overleveraged bank, just as Lehman Brothers was, and could experience a disastrous collapse of confidence any day now.

This story is wrong on so many levels that reporters are having a hard time keeping up, but let’s simply note that the Fed’s “liabilities” consist of cash, and those who hold that cash have the option of converting it into, well, cash. No, the Fed can’t fall victim to a bank run. But is Mr. Paul being ostracized for his views? Not at all...

read more: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/13/opinion/paul-krugman-money-makes-crazy.html?_r=0



Tell me why you believe voting for Rand Paul's tea party bill was correct; not an argument for holding the Fed accountable, but an argument in favor of Paul's bill.
108 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Sen. Sanders voted for a dangerously flawed tea party bill Tuesday (Original Post) bigtree Jan 2016 OP
Quantitative easing is a Fed policy. Few know what it is, or what the action does. guillaumeb Jan 2016 #1
It was a safe vote that opens the conversation and puts monetary policy Ron Green Jan 2016 #2
it gives aid and comfort to a tea party demagogue bigtree Jan 2016 #5
You could relax a bit about the labels and instead Ron Green Jan 2016 #12
the only effort I see here bigtree Jan 2016 #18
I'm sure Trump supporters would love to have that conversation CorkySt.Clair Jan 2016 #19
+1,000,000 Dawson Leery Jan 2016 #39
Yes! ellie Jan 2016 #72
Are you suggesting that Democrats should not work with or support any republican notadmblnd Jan 2016 #85
no, that's your own invention bigtree Jan 2016 #97
Maybe you could ask some other people who have supported the bill Scootaloo Jan 2016 #3
so you deflect from the bill Sanders actually voted for Tuesday bigtree Jan 2016 #6
Not at all. I'm telling you to ask other people who support the same bill. Scootaloo Jan 2016 #83
That is the legislation you asked about! kristopher Jan 2016 #103
Pretty sure this bill has the Watt amendment. joshcryer Jan 2016 #8
It's so much easier to resort to childish name-calling than discuss the actual issue n/t arcane1 Jan 2016 #77
Hillary should challenge Bernie on it in the next debate... NorthCarolina Jan 2016 #4
he voted to undermine the Fed's independence bigtree Jan 2016 #9
Like I said, she should challenge him on it in the debate. NorthCarolina Jan 2016 #10
+1 CorkySt.Clair Jan 2016 #14
If the shoe was on the other foot... joshcryer Jan 2016 #16
There are Republicans and there are Republicans Armstead Jan 2016 #20
So Sanders stood against Elizabeth Warren and almost all the Dems in the Senate Cali_Democrat Jan 2016 #7
He's an independent. Unlike Hillary, he can work with both parties to get things done! mhatrw Jan 2016 #24
Ya....Obama tried to work with Republicans Cali_Democrat Jan 2016 #29
Really? ellie Jan 2016 #74
I thought he was a Democrat? lunamagica Jan 2016 #75
He stood with fellow liberal Tammy Baldwin jfern Jan 2016 #80
Even a stopped clock is right twice a day Armstead Jan 2016 #11
there are other bills proposing to do that bigtree Jan 2016 #13
And I suspect if Sanders supported any of those he would also be singled out and beat up on too Armstead Jan 2016 #17
that's another deflection bigtree Jan 2016 #21
Perhaps I'm wrong but.... Armstead Jan 2016 #22
If they are working in the service of the Banks instead of the nation, then maybe... kristopher Jan 2016 #104
Wait, they didn't vote on Paul's proposal. joshcryer Jan 2016 #15
Now you tell me why auditing the Fed is a bad idea. mhatrw Jan 2016 #23
no one disagrees with that bigtree Jan 2016 #27
If no one disagrees with that, when can we expect a better, competing audit bill mhatrw Jan 2016 #49
please be more specific Vattel Jan 2016 #91
two quotes bigtree Jan 2016 #95
Thanks for trying. I am still confused about whether this is a good bill or not. Vattel Jan 2016 #99
Because ejbr Jan 2016 #31
Sweet jesus look at the spin in this thread ... LannyDeVaney Jan 2016 #25
I'm fine with him supporting this bill; doesn't bother me a bit. I feel no compulsion to serve some DisgustipatedinCA Jan 2016 #26
ZOMG you support the tea party??? beam me up scottie Jan 2016 #28
You caught me. I was the official carb guy for Rand's bong in college. :) DisgustipatedinCA Jan 2016 #30
I heard that! beam me up scottie Jan 2016 #33
no, he didn't just side with one of the biggest tea party demagogues in the national legislature bigtree Jan 2016 #32
Maybe if you posted "tea party" a few more times you could convince us to turn on Bernie. beam me up scottie Jan 2016 #34
BERNIE voted FOR the TEA PARTY DEMAGOGUE, RAND PAUL'S sham bill bigtree Jan 2016 #37
Or you could go with hyperbole and CAPITAL LETTERS!!! beam me up scottie Jan 2016 #40
stating that Paul is a TEA PARTY CONSERVATIVE isn't 'hyperbole, it's a FACT bigtree Jan 2016 #46
MORE CAPITAL LETTERS AND TEA PARTY REFERENCES!!! beam me up scottie Jan 2016 #48
I know some think DU is some kind of political remote control bigtree Jan 2016 #51
If you hadn't applied your own spin to the article I might have skipped the ridicule. beam me up scottie Jan 2016 #54
now it's the faux concern for my character, actually just a slam bigtree Jan 2016 #56
Meh, if you're not concerned why should I be. beam me up scottie Jan 2016 #57
I'm not going to be deflected in this thread bigtree Jan 2016 #59
You mean your attempt to associate Bernie and his supporters with the tea party? beam me up scottie Jan 2016 #61
I thought you knew. Bernie 'associated' HIMSELF with the Tea Party conservatives bigtree Jan 2016 #64
Keep digging, this is FASCINATING. beam me up scottie Jan 2016 #65
that's just DU rhetoric bigtree Jan 2016 #67
You've been talking past me from the start. beam me up scottie Jan 2016 #69
in the middle of a Democratic primary bigtree Jan 2016 #71
"What other tea party initiatives are attractive to Sen. Sanders? Or, is this the only one?" beam me up scottie Jan 2016 #73
no, I'm not killing you. I know well that you're not rolling on the floor laughing bigtree Jan 2016 #78
Now you can read my mind? beam me up scottie Jan 2016 #81
well, you must be easily amused bigtree Jan 2016 #84
Sure, you really admire Bernie and this was a crushing disappointment for you. beam me up scottie Jan 2016 #86
I'm one of the few posters who have posted threads in support of rival candidates' efforts bigtree Jan 2016 #88
Then you should have just explained why instead of implying he's a tea party sympathizer. beam me up scottie Jan 2016 #89
you made that leap bigtree Jan 2016 #93
You: "What other tea party initiatives are attractive to Sen. Sanders? Or, is this the only one?" beam me up scottie Jan 2016 #94
you didn't tune me out bigtree Jan 2016 #96
No I'm fairly certain I tuned you out. beam me up scottie Jan 2016 #98
Thank God for the "independence" of the Federal Reserve! mhatrw Jan 2016 #50
because we all think it's a good idea for Congress to manpulate monetary policy bigtree Jan 2016 #53
Who "manipulates" the Fed right now? mhatrw Jan 2016 #55
that's not a vaild argument for destroying it's independence bigtree Jan 2016 #58
If you say so. I don't trust the people who run the fed any more than mhatrw Jan 2016 #82
Yes, it's very important that the Fed keep giving money to Wall Street without anyone knowing. (nt) jeff47 Jan 2016 #35
Issues. Not personalities. PowerToThePeople Jan 2016 #36
sham bill bigtree Jan 2016 #41
Your opinion. PowerToThePeople Jan 2016 #43
not just my opinion bigtree Jan 2016 #47
Maybe because the Constitution authorizes Congress to do the following: JDPriestly Jan 2016 #38
'without reading the bill' bigtree Jan 2016 #44
I'd have to read the bill before I could really say anything about it. JDPriestly Jan 2016 #100
By the way, I really don't have an opinion about this legislation. JDPriestly Jan 2016 #102
Wow. kath Jan 2016 #42
I supported Sanders' characterization of Chelsea's remarks, right from the start bigtree Jan 2016 #45
But they're lies, as in, told by liars. You "characterize" what you need to. I'll point out lies. DisgustipatedinCA Jan 2016 #60
whatever bigtree Jan 2016 #62
The point is not moot, whether you support O'Malley, Sanders, or Clinton. DisgustipatedinCA Jan 2016 #63
you better hope people remain engaged in what's happening in our national legislature bigtree Jan 2016 #66
"Progressive values" like Hillary's? kath Jan 2016 #68
you make up a premise about my support for Hillary bigtree Jan 2016 #76
Half the threads here on DU have the word 'lies' in them. riversedge Jan 2016 #92
It's not dangerous. mmonk Jan 2016 #52
No audit of our tax dollars is bad. Just ridiculous! ViseGrip Jan 2016 #70
if that's what you believe this tea party bill was all about bigtree Jan 2016 #79
Wow. mmonk Jan 2016 #87
what can I really say about a Rand Paul bill? bigtree Jan 2016 #90
What "tax dollars" are involved here? Recursion Jan 2016 #107
This is what Sanders had to say about the Fed in a 12-23-15 op ed in the NYT Gore1FL Jan 2016 #101
Thanks. Here's a snip... kristopher Jan 2016 #105
Thank you for this information. blue neen Jan 2016 #106
Rand Paul is also a co-sponsor of the CARERS act. Warren DeMontague Jan 2016 #108

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
1. Quantitative easing is a Fed policy. Few know what it is, or what the action does.
Wed Jan 13, 2016, 04:25 PM
Jan 2016

THAT is reason enough, but the policy itself should be questioned also.

bigtree

(85,996 posts)
5. it gives aid and comfort to a tea party demagogue
Wed Jan 13, 2016, 04:33 PM
Jan 2016

...who is now using Sanders' vote as proof of the legitimacy of his bill.

The 'headlines' only serve as a wedge against our party, who voted correctly to reject this right-wing power grab.

Ron Green

(9,822 posts)
12. You could relax a bit about the labels and instead
Wed Jan 13, 2016, 04:40 PM
Jan 2016

concentrate more on the issues.

Monetary policy is a national conversation worth having.

bigtree

(85,996 posts)
18. the only effort I see here
Wed Jan 13, 2016, 04:51 PM
Jan 2016

...is a deflection from Sanders vote for Rand Paul's tea party bill.

It's not mere 'labels' but an actual description of what Sanders voted for. This bill of his has been a darling of his conservative allies for a good while now. It's not real reform, but a blatant attempt to undermine and politicize the Fed's independence in setting monetary policy.

The 'conversation' isn't about some nebulous support for monetary reform. This conversation is about the bill Sanders voted for YESTERDAY. I do understand the reluctance for supporters to explain why their Democratic candidate has sidled up to this notorious tea party demagogue's dangerous legislation.

 

CorkySt.Clair

(1,507 posts)
19. I'm sure Trump supporters would love to have that conversation
Wed Jan 13, 2016, 04:52 PM
Jan 2016

Like almost all Republicans, they seem to enjoy nuanced conversations about immigration, climate change etc. It's in their DNA.

notadmblnd

(23,720 posts)
85. Are you suggesting that Democrats should not work with or support any republican
Wed Jan 13, 2016, 07:32 PM
Jan 2016

on anything what so ever simply because they're republican?

bigtree

(85,996 posts)
97. no, that's your own invention
Wed Jan 13, 2016, 08:10 PM
Jan 2016

...although, I'll likely never support any proposed legislation from tea party lackeys.

 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
3. Maybe you could ask some other people who have supported the bill
Wed Jan 13, 2016, 04:30 PM
Jan 2016
An unusual coalition of progressive economists, labor leaders, and bloggers has decided to fight back against a congressional amendment that would allow the Federal Reserve to continue operating in secrecy.

In a Thursday letter to the House Financial Services Committee, economists like Dean Baker and Rob Johnson, author Naomi Klein, and such labor luminaries as the AFL-CIO's Richard Trumka and the SEIU's Andy Stern, urged committee members to shoot down an amendment by Rep. Mel Watt (D-N.C.) that would essentially allow the Fed to keep the lights off while it throws money around.

Watt's amendment, which could see a House vote today, is a direct attack against a separate measure by Reps. Ron Paul (R-Texas) and Alan Grayson (D-Fla.). That measure, known as the "Audit the Fed" bill, has been gaining momentum in Congress for months.

"A vote for the Watt amendment is a vote for more secret bailouts," the letter says.

The letter notes that during the financial crisis of the past two years, the Fed's role has shifted from simply setting monetary policy via interest rates to rapidly acquiring "a wide variety of private assets and extend[ing] massive secret bailouts to major financial institutions."


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/11/19/audit-the-fed-effort-wins_n_363410.html

Do get back to us after you have spoken to the following:

Dean Baker, Economist, Center for Economic Policy Research
William Black, Professor of Economics and Law
Tyler Durden, Blogger, Zero Hedge
Thomas Ferguson, Professor of Political Science, University of Massachusetts, Boston
James K. Galbraith, Economist, University of Texas
Leo Gerard, President, United Steelworkers Union
Jane Hamsher, Blogger, Firedoglake.com
Rob Johnson, Economist
Naomi Klein, Author, No Logo and The Shock Doctrine
Yves Smith, Blogger, Naked Capitalism
Andrew Stern, President, SEIU
Richard Trumka, President, AFL-CIO
L. Randall Wray, Professor of Economics, Center for Full Employment and Price Stability

bigtree

(85,996 posts)
6. so you deflect from the bill Sanders actually voted for Tuesday
Wed Jan 13, 2016, 04:34 PM
Jan 2016

...get back to me when you want to discuss the Paul tea party bill.

 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
83. Not at all. I'm telling you to ask other people who support the same bill.
Wed Jan 13, 2016, 07:29 PM
Jan 2016

They might have some answers for you.

 

NorthCarolina

(11,197 posts)
4. Hillary should challenge Bernie on it in the next debate...
Wed Jan 13, 2016, 04:32 PM
Jan 2016

you know, call him out for voting to audit the Fed. I look forward to that....

I really do

bigtree

(85,996 posts)
9. he voted to undermine the Fed's independence
Wed Jan 13, 2016, 04:38 PM
Jan 2016

...which would effectively allow Congress to manipulate monetary policy.

The 'audit the fed' title of Rand Paul's bill was a sham. That's why Democrats like Elizabeth Warren overwhelmingly rejected the legislation.


from the WSJ:

Sen. Elizabeth Warren (D., Mass.), a member of the Banking Committee and an outspoken critic of the Fed’s oversight of big banks, said she does not support Mr. Paul’s proposed legislation, which she said could have “dangerous” implications for monetary policy.

“I strongly support and continue to press for greater congressional oversight of the Fed’s regulatory and supervisory responsibilities, and I believe the Fed’s balance sheet should be regularly audited – which the law already requires,” Ms. Warren said in an emailed statement. “But I oppose the current version of this bill because it promotes congressional meddling in the Fed’s monetary policy decisions, which risks politicizing those decisions and may have dangerous implications for financial stability and the health of the global economy.”



read: http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2015/02/10/sen-warren-opposes-audit-the-fed-bill/
 

CorkySt.Clair

(1,507 posts)
14. +1
Wed Jan 13, 2016, 04:43 PM
Jan 2016

Anytime Republicans are calling for transparency on anything the first question that should be asked is what is their angle.

Warren clearly illustrates their angle here and as is the case with all things GOP, it's not truthiness they are after.

joshcryer

(62,270 posts)
16. If the shoe was on the other foot...
Wed Jan 13, 2016, 04:45 PM
Jan 2016

...it would go the other way. This is just a party protecting itself. The last thing you want is a fishing expedition. I understand the vote.

 

Armstead

(47,803 posts)
20. There are Republicans and there are Republicans
Wed Jan 13, 2016, 04:54 PM
Jan 2016

Just as there are many flavors of Democrats (as a visit to DU immediately confoirms) not all Republicans are the same with the same agenda.

 

Cali_Democrat

(30,439 posts)
7. So Sanders stood against Elizabeth Warren and almost all the Dems in the Senate
Wed Jan 13, 2016, 04:36 PM
Jan 2016

And he stood with Rand Paul and most of he other Republicans?

WTF?

 

Cali_Democrat

(30,439 posts)
29. Ya....Obama tried to work with Republicans
Wed Jan 13, 2016, 05:44 PM
Jan 2016

How did that work out?

They spit in his face.

They'll treat a self-described socialist even worse.

It's pretty much impossible to work with GOPers.

ellie

(6,929 posts)
74. Really?
Wed Jan 13, 2016, 07:16 PM
Jan 2016

Like Cali_D said, Obama tried to work with repukes and it got him nowhere. I am really unsure how people think this is going to change.

 

Armstead

(47,803 posts)
11. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day
Wed Jan 13, 2016, 04:40 PM
Jan 2016

and so might be libertarian conservatives.

"which might theoretically put political pressure on it to change its policy direction. In a small but meaningful way, it would chip away at the central bank’s independence. "

Perhaps there should at least be more accountability of the Fed. Not totally remove their independence, but perhaps public scrutiny and ability to challenge their decisions is not a bad thing. The fed is not an all-knowing deity that can do no wrong.

Even tghe smug Alan Greenspan admitted in later years that he sorta fucked up in some ways.

bigtree

(85,996 posts)
13. there are other bills proposing to do that
Wed Jan 13, 2016, 04:41 PM
Jan 2016

...without allowing Congress to politicize and manipulate monetary policy.

 

Armstead

(47,803 posts)
17. And I suspect if Sanders supported any of those he would also be singled out and beat up on too
Wed Jan 13, 2016, 04:50 PM
Jan 2016

I suspect if he'd supported a weaker or establishment version, a lot of his same critics would say "See? He voted for compromise. He's just a politician like they all are."

Something like this has endless variations and complexities. So much so that forests get lost for the trees. Often, that's a deliberate strategy -- to make things so complicated that people's eyes glaze over and bad things get slipped under the transom.

Perhaps Bernie should not have supported this bill and instead supported another. I'm not going to second guess him.

But I do know he's been engaged in this issue for a long time, and he knows he's under the spotlight at the moment,. So I'm going to trust his judgement on it...That's not passing the buck -- it's what we all do with politicians all the time, if we trust their overall motives and goals and bulk of their record.

bigtree

(85,996 posts)
21. that's another deflection
Wed Jan 13, 2016, 04:56 PM
Jan 2016

...this isn't about another bill. It's about Rand Paul's pernicious legislation.

'Not going to second-guess him.'

That's understandable for a supporter in this campaign. At some point, though, supporters will need to ask themselves who these compromised votes actually benefit.

 

Armstead

(47,803 posts)
22. Perhaps I'm wrong but....
Wed Jan 13, 2016, 05:28 PM
Jan 2016

After paying fairly close attention to Bernie for about 20 years, I'm going to trust him. and his motives and comprehension of the issues..

.And even if I disagree with him on some specifics of some issues,, I am going to trust my own judgement that on the vast majority of his stances and actions, he is honest and reflects my own views on what is needed.at this point in history.

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
104. If they are working in the service of the Banks instead of the nation, then maybe...
Thu Jan 14, 2016, 06:11 AM
Jan 2016

...their independence needs to be reined in some.

I damned sure wasn't thrilled about who ended up holding the bag after the meltdown.

mhatrw

(10,786 posts)
23. Now you tell me why auditing the Fed is a bad idea.
Wed Jan 13, 2016, 05:28 PM
Jan 2016

Here's why Sanders said he voted for the bill:

"Too much of the Fed’s business is conducted in secret, known only to the bankers on its various boards and committees. In 2010, I inserted an amendment in Dodd-Frank to audit the emergency lending by the Federal Reserve during the financial crisis. As a result of this audit, we learned that an institution that was created to serve all Americans had been hijacked by the very bankers it regulates.

"We must expand on that first review of the Fed’s activities. Requiring the Government Accountability Office to conduct a full and independent audit of the Fed each and every year, would be an important step towards making the Federal Reserve a more democratic institution that is responsive to the needs of ordinary Americans rather than the billionaires on Wall Street.”

Now you tell me why auditing the Fed is a bad idea.

bigtree

(85,996 posts)
27. no one disagrees with that
Wed Jan 13, 2016, 05:37 PM
Jan 2016

...but it's a deflection from the substance of Paul's bill, plain and simple.

It's a pointed omission, failing to address the provisions progressive Democrats and others have said they are opposed to in the Paul bill.

No Democrat has argued against auditing the Fed. In fact, there are several proposals for more Fed accountability. What the Paul tea party bill does, though, is allow Congress to pressure and manipulate the Fed to bend to policy changes for the benefit of individual legislators' interests.

I'm not surprised supporters want to deflect from all that, and pretend that anyone who objects to enabling tea party legislation designed to undermine the Federal Reserve's independence in setting monetary policy is against reform.

'Hey, look over here...pretty colored balloons!'

mhatrw

(10,786 posts)
49. If no one disagrees with that, when can we expect a better, competing audit bill
Wed Jan 13, 2016, 06:19 PM
Jan 2016

to sail through Congress?

 

Vattel

(9,289 posts)
91. please be more specific
Wed Jan 13, 2016, 07:50 PM
Jan 2016
What the Paul tea party bill does, though, is allow Congress to pressure and manipulate the Fed to bend to policy changes for the benefit of individual legislators' interests.


Isn't any bill that creates transparency in the Fed going to do that? What is it about Paul's bill that generates more problems with the independence of the Fed?

bigtree

(85,996 posts)
95. two quotes
Wed Jan 13, 2016, 08:05 PM
Jan 2016
Sherrod Brown

Sen. Paul's measure would have authorized the GAO to review more information as part of an audit, but opponents said that would give lawmakers too much information and power to exercise oversight.

“We’ll see many members of Congress pushing the Fed to side with the bondholders and Wall Street on combating inflation rather than siding with main street and small businesses and workers in dealing with unemployment,” said Sen. Sherrod Brown, D-Ohio, who spoke against the bill.



from the WSJ:

Sen. Elizabeth Warren (D., Mass.), a member of the Banking Committee and an outspoken critic of the Fed’s oversight of big banks, said she does not support Mr. Paul’s proposed legislation, which she said could have “dangerous” implications for monetary policy.

“I strongly support and continue to press for greater congressional oversight of the Fed’s regulatory and supervisory responsibilities, and I believe the Fed’s balance sheet should be regularly audited – which the law already requires,” Ms. Warren said in an emailed statement. “But I oppose the current version of this bill because it promotes congressional meddling in the Fed’s monetary policy decisions, which risks politicizing those decisions and may have dangerous implications for financial stability and the health of the global economy.”

ejbr

(5,856 posts)
31. Because
Wed Jan 13, 2016, 05:47 PM
Jan 2016

the attacks on his gun votes, the "data breach", and healthcare overhaul are not taking effect; so, instead of considering a bill by a republican, Democrats should shit on them as they do us. His explanations are never enough because he has yet to attribute his reasons to 9/11, an explanation that appears to satisfy his distractors. a la Wall Street contributions

 

LannyDeVaney

(1,033 posts)
25. Sweet jesus look at the spin in this thread ...
Wed Jan 13, 2016, 05:33 PM
Jan 2016

feeling the Bern indeed. The bern of you all screwing yourselves into the ground.

 

DisgustipatedinCA

(12,530 posts)
26. I'm fine with him supporting this bill; doesn't bother me a bit. I feel no compulsion to serve some
Wed Jan 13, 2016, 05:35 PM
Jan 2016

...screwed-up notion of party loyalty, when the party a sick and diseased patient. So I suppose my thought is, who cares. At least he's out there, you know, telling the truth.

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
28. ZOMG you support the tea party???
Wed Jan 13, 2016, 05:37 PM
Jan 2016

That's what the implication is and why the op changed the title of the article. Bernie's a traitor who votes with the tea party and if we don't hang him out to dry we're just as guilty.


 

DisgustipatedinCA

(12,530 posts)
30. You caught me. I was the official carb guy for Rand's bong in college. :)
Wed Jan 13, 2016, 05:46 PM
Jan 2016

All of the dishonesty really shouldn't surprise me--dishonesty and lies seem to be all the rage in some circles of late.

Anyway, I heard that Sanders wants to do away with Obamacare, so I'm off to get my second-place candidate, Bobby Jindal, to un-suspend his campaign and bring the Bobmentum.

bigtree

(85,996 posts)
32. no, he didn't just side with one of the biggest tea party demagogues in the national legislature
Wed Jan 13, 2016, 05:49 PM
Jan 2016

...Bernie was able to single out all of the good stuff in the legislation and just vote for that...right?

Bernie Sanders voted for tea party sponsored legislation which sought to politicize and undermine the independence of the Federal Reserve in setting monetary policy. Paul has been very clear about the intent of his bill. His conservative allies have been cheering it on. It's well-known what Tea Party Paul intended with this bill.

Yesterday, Sen. Sanders sidled right up alongside the prevaricating right-winger, obscuring the pernicious, dangerous provisions in the bill and posturing like the sham represented real reform.

That aid and comfort for this tea party creep deserves characterization, but what I'm thinking of might be better left unwritten here.


beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
34. Maybe if you posted "tea party" a few more times you could convince us to turn on Bernie.
Wed Jan 13, 2016, 05:50 PM
Jan 2016

Go ahead, keep digging, we're almost there!


bigtree

(85,996 posts)
37. BERNIE voted FOR the TEA PARTY DEMAGOGUE, RAND PAUL'S sham bill
Wed Jan 13, 2016, 05:58 PM
Jan 2016

...he voted for a shit pie, a sham which supporters want to argue is actually a noble effort at reform.

Sanders is either naive; oblivious to the phoniness of the Paul bill; or simply doesn't care about allowing Congress to politicize and manipulate fed monetary policy.

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
40. Or you could go with hyperbole and CAPITAL LETTERS!!!
Wed Jan 13, 2016, 05:59 PM
Jan 2016

Yep it worked, I'm convinced!

Bernie is dead to me!


bigtree

(85,996 posts)
46. stating that Paul is a TEA PARTY CONSERVATIVE isn't 'hyperbole, it's a FACT
Wed Jan 13, 2016, 06:09 PM
Jan 2016

...stating that Bernie Sanders voted for TEA PARTY CONSERVATIVE PAUL'S SHAM OF A BILL Tuesday isn't 'hyperbole, it's FACT.

bigtree

(85,996 posts)
51. I know some think DU is some kind of political remote control
Wed Jan 13, 2016, 06:23 PM
Jan 2016

...but like it or not, this conversation is just that, a discussion on a political message board.

Now, you may well want to divert attention back to the horse race, but this complaint is about your candidate making a questionable vote, in the middle of our Democratic primary, for a sham bill sponsored by Tea Party Paul and promoted among his right-wing allies. Almost everyone already knew this bill was a sham; promising reform, but auguring interference by Congress into the Fed's monetary policy decisions.

All of the silliness and ridicule you can manage in this thread won't change the facts of this bill Sanders voted for; not the sponsor; the intent; or the contents.

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
54. If you hadn't applied your own spin to the article I might have skipped the ridicule.
Wed Jan 13, 2016, 06:26 PM
Jan 2016

But when you use the guilt by association fallacy don't be shocked by the responses you get.

You're better than that, or at least I thought you were.

bigtree

(85,996 posts)
56. now it's the faux concern for my character, actually just a slam
Wed Jan 13, 2016, 06:34 PM
Jan 2016

...the last refuge, I suppose.

Who would have believed anyone predicting Sanders would vote for a Rand Paul sham of a bill in the middle of our Democratic primary?

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
57. Meh, if you're not concerned why should I be.
Wed Jan 13, 2016, 06:39 PM
Jan 2016

And endlessly repeating your opinion doesn't magically make it correct.

bigtree

(85,996 posts)
59. I'm not going to be deflected in this thread
Wed Jan 13, 2016, 06:40 PM
Jan 2016

...but I understand your need to try.


I work nights and I'm a little sleepy, thinking of napping for a while. Maybe you can gain some ground while I sleep.

bigtree

(85,996 posts)
64. I thought you knew. Bernie 'associated' HIMSELF with the Tea Party conservatives
Wed Jan 13, 2016, 06:54 PM
Jan 2016

...in voting for Rand Paul's sham bill, legislation which received overwhelming republican support and overwhelming Democratic opposition..

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
69. You've been talking past me from the start.
Wed Jan 13, 2016, 07:02 PM
Jan 2016

Maybe next time you should skip the stale talking points, people respond better when you don't use debunked memes to attack their candidate.

Bernie doesn't support the tea party.

Better luck next time.

bigtree

(85,996 posts)
71. in the middle of a Democratic primary
Wed Jan 13, 2016, 07:11 PM
Jan 2016

...smh. There's absolutely zero room for anyone defending this vote to accuse others of being less than progressive. This is a goddamn betrayal. Gloss over it all you want. This vote is an eye-opener.

What other tea party initiatives are attractive to Sen. Sanders? Or, is this the only one?

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
73. "What other tea party initiatives are attractive to Sen. Sanders? Or, is this the only one?"
Wed Jan 13, 2016, 07:13 PM
Jan 2016

Omg, STOP IT! You're killing me here!


bigtree

(85,996 posts)
78. no, I'm not killing you. I know well that you're not rolling on the floor laughing
Wed Jan 13, 2016, 07:21 PM
Jan 2016

...it's been a hard slog for you on this thread, working to bury me in your petty personalization.

Must suck to have your candidate vote with one of the biggest demagogues in Congress, a tea party conservative. I understand your need to deflect, and I appreciate all of your kicks on this thread.

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
81. Now you can read my mind?
Wed Jan 13, 2016, 07:27 PM
Jan 2016

Trust me, big tree, this thread has kept me rolling on the floor for over an hour.

Bernie is a closet TEA PARTY SYMPATHIZER and we just can't handle the TRUTHINESS!


bigtree

(85,996 posts)
84. well, you must be easily amused
Wed Jan 13, 2016, 07:31 PM
Jan 2016

...actually, it looks like a standard, no-holds-barred defense, complete with deflection, ridicule, and denial. A strident, but ineffective effort to deny the reality of your candidate voting for tea party sponsored legislation in the middle of a Democratic primary. I would never have predicted this, and I am absolutely floored. Of all the idiotic votes...

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
86. Sure, you really admire Bernie and this was a crushing disappointment for you.
Wed Jan 13, 2016, 07:33 PM
Jan 2016

And I'm interested in that bridge in Brooklyn you're selling too.

bigtree

(85,996 posts)
88. I'm one of the few posters who have posted threads in support of rival candidates' efforts
Wed Jan 13, 2016, 07:41 PM
Jan 2016

...actually more than I can count.

That was a poor deflection.

I'm not disappointed in Sanders, I'm pissed at him. Something Sanders supporters here sometimes have a hard time grasping: There is a world of progressive advocacy and care outside of the Sanders campaign.

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
89. Then you should have just explained why instead of implying he's a tea party sympathizer.
Wed Jan 13, 2016, 07:44 PM
Jan 2016

And then you insulted everyone who disagreed with you, your tactics betray you.

I applauded your positive threads but you squandered any good will you generated.

bigtree

(85,996 posts)
93. you made that leap
Wed Jan 13, 2016, 07:59 PM
Jan 2016

...I've been very clear.

The initial rebuttals to this news were inferences that critics of Sanders' vote were against a fed audit. But you want me to care that criticizing and characterizing the source and intent of this legislation portrays Sanders as a tea party sympathizer? At some point, he's responsible for that, not those pointing correctly to his support for this obvious sham of a bill from a tea party conservative.

Get it? Sanders is responsible for his own actions. No one forced him to sidle up to Paul and vote for his phoney bill. No amount of ridicule or personalization can detract from that fact.

Sanders voted for this tea party bill and wants us to accept that his intentions were honorable. That may well be, but what he voted for wasn't reform. It was a sham. Whatever 'tactics' you believe I'm using, his vote was wrong, and the senator he's partnered with on this issue and that man's father are both the worst of demagogues. Sad that anyone would defend this.

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
94. You: "What other tea party initiatives are attractive to Sen. Sanders? Or, is this the only one?"
Wed Jan 13, 2016, 08:04 PM
Jan 2016

Too little too late, I tuned you out as soon as you implied Bernie supported the tea party and attacked us for disagreeing.

bigtree

(85,996 posts)
96. you didn't tune me out
Wed Jan 13, 2016, 08:07 PM
Jan 2016

...you're still tripping over my rhetorical question - hoping, I would guess, to twist that into a good deflection from Sanders voting for tea party legislation sponsored by one of the biggest demagogues in congress, Rand Paul.

mhatrw

(10,786 posts)
50. Thank God for the "independence" of the Federal Reserve!
Wed Jan 13, 2016, 06:22 PM
Jan 2016

That's what the Fourth of July is all about!

bigtree

(85,996 posts)
58. that's not a vaild argument for destroying it's independence
Wed Jan 13, 2016, 06:39 PM
Jan 2016

...and allowing Congress to manipulate monetary policy decisions. Both houses of Congress in republican control right now. It would be a disaster to allow them to intimidate the Fed into bending their way on monetary policy. It makes absolutely no sense to blur that prospect, and pretend there's something positive to be gained by allowing republicans to insert their influence into those important decisions.

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
35. Yes, it's very important that the Fed keep giving money to Wall Street without anyone knowing. (nt)
Wed Jan 13, 2016, 05:52 PM
Jan 2016

bigtree

(85,996 posts)
41. sham bill
Wed Jan 13, 2016, 06:00 PM
Jan 2016

...consider the source of the sham bill.

That's not too much to expect from a majority of progressive supporters here...one would think.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
38. Maybe because the Constitution authorizes Congress to do the following:
Wed Jan 13, 2016, 05:58 PM
Jan 2016

Article I, Section 8:

The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes;

To establish a uniform rule of naturalization, and uniform laws on the subject of bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures;

To provide for the punishment of counterfeiting the securities and current coin of the United States;

. . . . .etc.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/articlei

Then there is this in the Constitution:
14th Amendment:

Section 4.

The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any state shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.
Section 5.

The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/amendmentxiv

The exact responsibility and liability that the US government has for the FED and its transactions is kind of a mystery to most people.

Is Congress responsible for the strength of the dollar? The debts of our government are owed in dollars? How transparent should the Fed be?

Perhaps an audit, maybe not the precise kind of audit foreseen in this bill, but some kind of review process will actually strengthen the Fed. I don't know, but there is some ambiguity about the extent to which our dollar and our economy is subject to supervision by Congress.

This is a discussion that can't hurt anyone in my view. The Fed is very important to our economy.

I'm not defending or criticizing the bill (haven't seen the text) but I know there is a lot of confusion especially among conservatives about just what the Fed does. A lot of the criticism is sheer paranoia and misinformation. On the other hand, the Fed doesn't bother to educate Americans about just what it does and who it answers to. What with this age of information and the internet, I would like to know more about it. Maybe this bill would help spread some information.

The last audit of the bail-out transactions was very revealing.

To what extent are taxpayers on the line to support or back up the Fed's transactions, loans, etc.? Americans need to know this. We need more transparency and education on this. Without reading the bill, I support efforts to get more transparency and education on economics and financial transactions at all levels for Americans. We are a financially illiterate people and it costs us a lot on various levels, not just financial.

bigtree

(85,996 posts)
44. 'without reading the bill'
Wed Jan 13, 2016, 06:02 PM
Jan 2016

...I always take tea party legislation at face value. Details? Schmetails.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
102. By the way, I really don't have an opinion about this legislation.
Thu Jan 14, 2016, 01:43 AM
Jan 2016

If you do, please provide a link to it so that we can read it ourselves.

Bernie will no doubt explain his thinking on this.

I have a neighbor who is obsessed about the Fed. A lot of people are. I don't know that much about it really.

I do know that Congress is authorized under the Constitution to regulate our currency. I think that the Fed was established by an act of Congress.

I am assuming my reading of the Constitution is correct. I'm not an expert on this, so I can't be sure.

The Federal Reserve Act (ch. 6, 38 Stat. 251, enacted December 23, 1913, 12 U.S.C. ch. 3) is an Act of Congress that created and established the Federal Reserve System, the central banking system of the United States, and granted it the legal authority to issue Federal Reserve Notes (now commonly known as the U.S. Dollar) and Federal Reserve Bank Notes as legal tender. The Act was signed into law by President Woodrow Wilson.

. . . .

12 USC § 225a

On November 16, 1977, the Federal Reserve Act was amended to require the Board and the FOMC "to promote effectively the goals of maximum employment, stable prices, and moderate long-term interest rates." This same amendment stated that the member governor proposed by the President to be Chairman would have a four-year term as Chairman and would be subject to confirmation by the Senate (member governors per se each have 14 year terms, with a specific term ending every two years). The Chairman was also required to appear before Congress at semi-annual hearings to report on the conduct of monetary policy, on economic development, and on the prospects for the future. The Federal Reserve Act has been amended by some 200 subsequent laws of Congress. It continues to be one of the principal banking laws of the United States.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Reserve_Act

Lots more information at the link.

The Federal Reserve answers to Congress. It's not the other way around. How do you think that this amendment changes the relationship between Congress and the Fed if at all?

bigtree

(85,996 posts)
45. I supported Sanders' characterization of Chelsea's remarks, right from the start
Wed Jan 13, 2016, 06:04 PM
Jan 2016

...and argued against characterizing campaign representations of opposition policy proposals as 'lies.'

Do you think it enhances your own credibility to distort what I actually said in that thread?

More deflection.

 

DisgustipatedinCA

(12,530 posts)
60. But they're lies, as in, told by liars. You "characterize" what you need to. I'll point out lies.
Wed Jan 13, 2016, 06:42 PM
Jan 2016

I'll also point out that Hillary Clinton is NEVER going to be the President. You'd better hope Sanders pulls out the nomination.

bigtree

(85,996 posts)
62. whatever
Wed Jan 13, 2016, 06:50 PM
Jan 2016

...it doesn't belong in this thread.

FFS, I actually AGREED with Sanders on that issue. Not ONE statement from his campaign referring to Chelsea's comments as 'lies.' Seems you have just as much of an issue with him as you do with my own view. Neither your candidate, or I, feel a need to call the Clinton's liars.

As for Clinton, you'll have to save that nonsense for someone actually supporting her in this primary campaign. Kinda of makes your point moot.

 

DisgustipatedinCA

(12,530 posts)
63. The point is not moot, whether you support O'Malley, Sanders, or Clinton.
Wed Jan 13, 2016, 06:54 PM
Jan 2016

You'd better hope Sanders wins the nomination, because if Clinton does, we're fucked, all of us.

And no, I don't have an issue with Sanders, no matter how it may "seem" to you. Here's an inside secret: being a Sanders supporter does not require a loyalty oath. It does not require supporting all of Sanders' positions. And it does not require some sort of Soviet devotion to the way Sanders runs his campaign. That was a weird thing for you to say.

bigtree

(85,996 posts)
66. you better hope people remain engaged in what's happening in our national legislature
Wed Jan 13, 2016, 06:56 PM
Jan 2016

...and hold true to their progressive values.

bigtree

(85,996 posts)
76. you make up a premise about my support for Hillary
Wed Jan 13, 2016, 07:18 PM
Jan 2016

...and then ridicule off of your own imagination?

I agreed with Sanders' criticism of Chelsea. He didn't call anyone a 'liar'. I agree with that approach. If I'm supporting Clinton in that, then so is Sanders.

Your responses/ accusations in this thread have been stupefyingly obtuse and just plain false.

bigtree

(85,996 posts)
79. if that's what you believe this tea party bill was all about
Wed Jan 13, 2016, 07:23 PM
Jan 2016

...you're as naive or as obtuse as your candidate.

bigtree

(85,996 posts)
90. what can I really say about a Rand Paul bill?
Wed Jan 13, 2016, 07:46 PM
Jan 2016

...it was a typical republican sham; pretending to promote reform, but actually a stalking horse for their efforts to undermine the Federal Reserve and intimidate them into following their lead on monetary policy.

It's not worth defending.

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
105. Thanks. Here's a snip...
Thu Jan 14, 2016, 07:36 AM
Jan 2016
The recent decision by the Fed to raise interest rates is the latest example of the rigged economic system. Big bankers and their supporters in Congress have been telling us for years that runaway inflation is just around the corner. They have been dead wrong each time. Raising interest rates now is a disaster for small business owners who need loans to hire more workers and Americans who need more jobs and higher wages. As a rule, the Fed should not raise interest rates until unemployment is lower than 4 percent. Raising rates must be done only as a last resort — not to fight phantom inflation.

What went wrong at the Fed? The chief executives of some of the largest banks in America are allowed to serve on its boards. During the Wall Street crisis of 2007, Jamie Dimon, the chief executive and chairman of JPMorgan Chase, served on the New York Fed’s board of directors while his bank received more than $390 billion in financial assistance from the Fed. Next year, four of the 12 presidents at the regional Federal Reserve Banks will be former executives from one firm: Goldman Sachs.

These are clear conflicts of interest, the kind that would not be allowed at other agencies. We would not tolerate the head of Exxon Mobil running the Environmental Protection Agency. We don’t allow the Federal Communications Commission to be dominated by Verizon executives. And we should not allow big bank executives to serve on the boards of the main agency in charge of regulating financial institutions.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/23/opinion/bernie-sanders-to-rein-in-wall-street-fix-the-fed.html

blue neen

(12,319 posts)
106. Thank you for this information.
Thu Jan 14, 2016, 07:56 AM
Jan 2016

There are still many of us who are undecided. This is an issue worth checking out.

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