I will say one good thing about the Clinton lies on Bernie's healthcare plans

[Armstead]

Her complete and deliberate distortions have caused Bernie to explain what his proposal is much more directly and clearly than he has previously. I have the nooze channel on in the background, and Bernie countered with a more succinct, but clear explanation that his goal is single payer expansion of Medicare for everybody.

So perhaps the condescending meme that has been said to dismiss him as a serious candidate ("Having Sanders as a challenger will make Hillary a better nominee when she wins the primary&quot also applies in reverse.

[riversedge]

1. and so now let him get clear about how he will pay for his proposal....How much will our

taxes raise??


http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/01/clinton-campaign-keeps-attacking-bernie-health-care



Sanders' proposal, say Clinton staffers, would raise taxes on the middle class.

—By Patrick Caldwell
| Wed Jan. 13, 2016 4:23 PM EST



.............Clinton campaign officials alleged that Sanders is not releasing the details of how he'd pay for the plan because he wants to hide tax increases that would hit the middle class. Earlier on Wednesday, Sanders' campaign had released a comprehensive list of proposals to pay for his various campaign schemes—except for health care. As recently as 2013, Sanders had regularly introduced bills for single-payer health plans that include details on the tax increases that he would include to pay for the system, including an across-the-board 2.2 percent income tax hike. Since launching his presidential campaign, he's continually promised to introduce a new Medicare-for-all proposal, but has yet to come out with the details.

Speaking on behalf of the Clinton campaign, senior policy advisor Jake Sullivan and national press secretary Brian Fallon ripped into Sanders for the delay, claiming that it did a disservice to Democratic voters, with the Iowa caucuses just three weeks away. "It's not becoming, and it's not worthy of the caucus-goers in Iowa," Fallon said.

The pair of Clinton aides weren't subtle in suggesting that the reason Sanders has yet to unveil a proposal is because he doesn't want to talk about the tax increases needed to fund it. "One can only draw the conclusion that the Sanders campaign does not want to outline what is going to amount to a massive across-the-board tax hike on working families," Sullivan said. (The Sanders campaign did not immediately respond to a request for comment.)

Clinton has regularly attacked both Sanders and her other Democratic opponent, former Maryland Gov. Martin O'Malley, for being willing to raise taxes on people she terms middle class—a broad definition that reaches nearly to the top tier of incomes.........................................

[DisgustipatedinCA]

2. This article quotes the Clinton campaign.

[beam me up scottie]

7. The propaganda didn't work on you either?

The right wing talking points and spin are dizzying!

Twirl twirl twirl!

[DisgustipatedinCA]

10. If the Clinton campaign says it, I need outside verification before I'll believe it.

Telling lies to deceive voters and harm reputations comes at a price.

[beam me up scottie]

12. I'm waiting for Brock to weigh in.

That guy is the daddy of all Propaganda Catapulters.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

17. Your mention of Brock reminded me that I'd read Primary Colors years and years ago.

I was enamored of the Clintons at that time, so many years back. But times do change, and so did I.

[Autumn]

15. At this point if any of them said the sky is blue I'm going to look outside.

[riversedge]

22. (The Sanders campaign did not immediately respond to a request for comment.) Seems

will have wait for the Sanders comments.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

23. My complaint was that the article quoted the Clinton campaign. nt

[lapfog_1]

3. how do the other countries in the world

with universal health care seem to be able to pay for it?

Perhaps its because they don't spend as much on their military as we do.

[kath]

9. Yes - I'll say it slowly for the neuronally-challenged: Every. Other. Developed. Nation. On. The.

Planet. Manages. To. Pay. For. Universal. Healthcare. Without. Going. Bankrupt.

(Kinda reminds me of the old "News for the Hard-of-Hearing" on SNL )

[bvf]

20. LOL. Thank you. Needs to be said that way for some.

Or à la "Slow Talkers of America," by Bob and Ray (for us old-timers).

[kath]

25. Hmmm

I'm old,but I guess not THAT old.

Will have to Google it.

[roguevalley]

27. bwhahahaha. bob and ray. google it, kath. :D

[anigbrowl]

35. I come from one of those countries

I love universal healthcare and know a great deal about how it functions as well. It's a wonderful thing. It's also extremely expensive, politically radioactive, and has a lot of problems of its own - even though it looks simple from far away. Think about the VA hospital system - it's rife with problems. Everyone agrees that veterans deserve the best possible care and that the government has a duty to supply it to them - it's one of the few things that people across the political spectrum agree on - and yet fixing those problems and making the VA work properly is a slow and painful process. Universal socialized healthcare will be orders of magnitude more problematic. I am very much for it, but I am also completely distrustful of anyone who tells me how simple it will be, because they're either clueless or lying.

Over-simplifying an issue and underestimating its real complexity does just as much a disservice to people as throwing up your hands and saying its impossible. In many ways I think it's worse because when people run into the inevitable disappointments, they're much less inclined to support further reforms.

[Cal33]

18. What you said and also, doctors and pharmaceutical companies don't charge as much

as they do here.

An example: My dentist told me to use a tooth-guard at night, since I apparently
grind my teeth when I'm asleep. I dropped into a drug store, and the price was
$35. I thought it was kind of high for a small piece of plastic. I checked into a
sporting goods store, and the tooth-guard (used by boxers) cost $6.

The price was about 6 times lower for the same thing!! In this country, anything
connected with medicine will automatically go up in price -- and very dramatically!!

I hope Bernie and Elizabeth will both fight this greed as a team. What a great team
they will make!

[Warren Stupidity]

21. They are simply more advanced and prosperous.

We need to face up to the reality that we are a second rate country with a first rate military.

[Skwmom]

4. The middle class is struggling with skyrocketing health insurance premiums, copays, deductibles,

and items not covered. They are tired of paying more than any other county while having a health care system that does not provide good care.

[Betty Karlson]

6. At this point, anyone closely connected to the Clintons cannot be taken as a credible source anymore

Her credibility has sunk that deep, after Chelsea's "misspeaking".

[Armstead]

8. That's right wng propaganda

Under the current system people/businesses are forced to pay for private insurance coverage. It is a mandate, so it is just like a tax, except the people whop decide the rates and terms are corporate bean counters and extortionists.

Under Bernie's plan, people would pay for universal Medicare type coverage. Like SS, it would be mandatory. But unlike the mandatory private insurance fees people have to pay now, it would take out the corporate profits and waste, and families would end up better off for less money.

One can debate whether they prefer that or the prersent system. But Clinton's attacks are just a Democrat version of GOP Harry and Louise Tea Bag Talking points.

If Clinton had truly consistent values and commitment to universal coverage, she would challenge Sanders without amplifying right wing GOP talking points against the concept.

[Dawson Leery]

11. The professional/regressive left now thinks Mother Jones is right wing propaganda.

[cui bono]

13. The quoted part begins: "Clinton campaign officials alleged"

Sometimes it's good to read before posting the trademarked smarm and rofl emoticon.

.

[beam me up scottie]

16. Um...Brian Fallon and Jake Sullivan work for the Clinton campaign.

Close enough to right wing propaganda for me.

[thesquanderer]

36. There's at least a decent overview here...

http://usuncut.com/news/bernie-sanders-healthcare-plan-would-save-the-average-american-family-1200/

[Betty Karlson]

5. It certainly raised his media exposure a bit - and as DWS would agree with you:

any kind of exposure (for Sanders) in the media is bad bad news for the preferred status quo candidate. Any kind of unrehearsed exposure in the media (for Clinton) is merely bad news for the preferred status quo candidate.

[Tanuki]

14. Will people still have to buy supplemental coverage for the 20% that Medicare doesn't pay for?

Will the private insurance companies still be involved in that, as they are now?

[riversedge]

19. Sanders has not given any specifics on his health plan yet.

[Armstead]

24. Maybe, maybe not

You are asking for a lot of very detailed specifics.

I will assume that you are being sincere, and not concern trolling. If so, I suggest you google everything you can find, and contract his campaign with your questions.

While I agree that he should release an outline of what his ideal plan would be, whats is most important at this point is to push the conversation in the direction of the general principle of moving to a single payer system that would be the equivalent of a universal expansion of Medicare to cover everyone.

Healthcare is a very complex system. There would have to be many details worked out.

Bernie is not going to be able to walk into the Oval Office on Inauguration Day and issue an Executive Order that instantly transforms the healthcare system. He may try to submit an overall plan and let Congress have at it. Or he might take an incremental approach (partly based on the make up of Congress) and start with a public option as step one. If so we would still have a mixed system and the questions like supplemental insurance and how the non -covered deductibles might be covered, etc. will be relevant.

But whatever he proposes is going to be hashed out, and picked apart and negotiated by Congress and -- by extension -- be subjected to widespread public debate and modification.

What is important at this stage is the overall basic principle, goal and plan, not all of the tress that obscure the forest, or hypotheticals that may or may not be relevant at crtain points in the future.

[Tanuki]

28. As I have mentioned elsewhere, I am a health care provider and unlike many others

in my field I am always happy to accept Medicare patients. I do so against my personal financial interests because I believe that doing otherwise discriminates against the elderly, and because I support the vision of some awesome Democrats in the 1960's for a Great Society that gave us Medicare, the Civil Rights acts, the Voting Rights Act, and so much more. I know how hard it was to get those things and how unlikely it would be to get them today if they did not already exist. I hope the day will come when we have genuine universal health care, and it is frustrating when people act as if it will just magically fall into place. When this is practically the centerpiece of someone's campaign, I think it is legitimate to ask for specifics and to persist when brushed off with platitudes and bromides (not meaning you). It is indeed a very complex subject and disappointing in such a Bernie-rich environment as DU that it is so hard to get useful information. Thanks for at least making an effort.

[Armstead]

33. Okay. Thatks for the clarificarification....Just FYI...

My own preference is (was) an incremental movement to single payer, starting with a public option (with appropriate provisions for providers) that would demonstrate to people that public insurance is not the end of the world, but would actually benefit people in their own pocketbooks, in addition to being the right thing to do.

[Warren Stupidity]

26. The senate bill sanders filed last year was for

a comprehensive universal system. No copays. No deductibles. No out of pocket expenses. That system replaces Medicaid and Medicare and the federal employee system and expands coverage to everyone from birth to death.

Yes taxes will go up. The details on funding are being worked out but will include an increase in the payroll tax. For both employers and employees in the current for profit system this will likely be a reduction in costs.

[Bjornsdotter]

29. As a business owner...

....I welcome this. It couldn't happen too soon for me.

[Tanuki]

31. That would be fantastic and I would welcome it. I think most people would, too.

How did the bill do in the Senate?

[JonLeibowitz]

32. Well the GOP opposes the ACA so I don't even need to look it up to know it went nowhere. n/t

[Warren Stupidity]

34. It went nowhere of course.

The kleptocracy is not going to cede control without a struggle.

[kenfrequed]

30. And...

The media is starting to pay attention to what she says and what Bernie has proposed. Which is good for all of us.