2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumDUMB ASS Tim Kaine just lost the VA. Senate race with his 47% stupid statement in a debate
I knew one of these guys on our side was going to fuck this up in a debate there are a lot of debates coming up among candidates so this thing isn't over now the rethugs and media will pounce on Kaine's statement and EVERY democrat will be asked to denounce his comment including the President http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/20/tim-kaine-47-percent-income-tax_n_1900567.html
MADem
(135,425 posts)It mentions that he cut his salary as governor, and Allen raised his four times.
It's a good ad.
The guy didn't necessarily fuck up--for every minimum tax, there can just as easily be a minimum deduction. Don't get overly excited.
Response to MADem (Reply #1)
NewEngland4Obama This message was self-deleted by its author.
sharp_stick
(14,400 posts)injected into a single subject line.
I stepped on a sidewalk crack, it's all over Man! Mom's gonna kill me when her back snaps!
MADem
(135,425 posts)The highlighted exchange is a particular gem, and Kaine scored well in it, too:
KAINE: Everyone pays taxes.
GREGORY: But federal income taxes?
KAINE: I would be open to a proposal that would have some minimum tax level for everyone. But I do insist -- many of the 47 percent that Gov. Romney was going after pay a higher percentage of their income in taxes than he does.
I think Kaine made an important point, there.
Gloom/doom/abandon hope whines seem to sell better around here--I don't understand it, frankly.
TroyD
(4,551 posts)Because as the Politico article I posted points out, Allen has already gone to the press with Kaine's remarks and 'pounced' on them.
MADem
(135,425 posts)The wingnut Allbritton bunch--you know, the same assclowns who managed to get Bill Maher's "Politically Incorrect" show cancelled because he dared to say the asshole Nahn Wun Wun hijackers weren't lacking in stones when they did their stupid deed.
They owned the DC affiliate that broadcast PI--once the show wasn't seen in DC, it might have well have not been seen at all. The good news is that ABC's loss ended up being HBO's gain.
In any event...ALWAYS consider the source, be it a television show, a newpaper or website article, or even a thread here at DU. When people cry gloom and doom, they often have a reason, and the reasons can be as varied as the individuals shopping the shit.
Kaine has some great ads airing in VA--I am passing through the state and have noticed them. They are very effective.
Indpndnt
(2,391 posts)WI_DEM
(33,497 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)Don't buy the OP or the headline--read the actual article. Kaine drew a nice little bit blood with that exchange.
timber84
(2,876 posts)another positive post about democrats from Bigdarryl. Always so concerned.
budkin
(6,703 posts)And ridden Obama's coat tails to victory.
cash__whatiwant
(396 posts)Daniel537
(1,560 posts)Nothing new here. Same old blue-dog bullshit.
Silent3
(15,210 posts)...and (whether he meant it or not) he could say that he was talking only about higher-income members of that 47% who aren't paying income tax.
TroyD
(4,551 posts)Was he trying to appeal to the right-wing voters?
But since I assume Allen West has the same views, is it likely to make a difference in that state?
But it goes back to what some of us have been saying all week - never assume that it is in the bag. Don't get overconfident.
Jennicut
(25,415 posts)I still can't believe he is the Repub candidate there...
TroyD
(4,551 posts)I wrote Allen West by mistake because I had just been on the Allen West thread.
Jennicut
(25,415 posts)I can't decide who is worse on that one: Allen "80% of Dems are communists" West or George "Macaca" Allen.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)And he SKEWERED RMoney in the process.
Again, the key exchange, from the link:
KAINE: Everyone pays taxes.
GREGORY: But federal income taxes?
KAINE: I would be open to a proposal that would have some minimum tax level for everyone. But I do insist -- many of the 47 percent that Gov. Romney was going after pay a higher percentage of their income in taxes than he does.
Arkana
(24,347 posts)I don't even see how that's a bad thing to say.
LiberalFighter
(50,912 posts)arcane1
(38,613 posts)I disagree with hi, and I would not be "open" to such a proposal, but it hardly seems like a disaster or game-changer.
left on green only
(1,484 posts)Jennicut
(25,415 posts)Its VA. The fact that Allen is even a legitimate candidate there and McDonnell is the Gov says a lot about the state. Kaine is a blue dog in a purplish state. And in the polling he has been ahead or at the very least tied.
TroyD
(4,551 posts)And who knows whether this will even be a big issue there.
But it is a valuable warning to all candidates everywhere - be careful what you say and don't take anything for granted!!!
woolldog
(8,791 posts)Don't think he loses the race because of it, but that's an unforced error, as they say in tennis.
TroyD
(4,551 posts)TroyD
(4,551 posts)Kaine is ahead in this race. There was no need for him to try and pander to those who want a crackdown on the '47%'.
Secondly, the heat should have been directed at Allen in this debate and made him accountable for Romney's remarks since he is running under the Republican banner, and now it looks like Kaine is the one who is going to be in all the headlines for messing up.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)Any more bad news to share, more doom and gloom to spread around. You really are very tiresome.
TroyD
(4,551 posts)And is told to be careful what he says for the next 6 weeks.
fugop
(1,828 posts)My response: Yawn.
I'm just not seeing this as a game changer. I even read a couple of pieces about the debate (from the WaPo and from Richmond) and ... fair coverage. I'm just not seeing this as a big deal. Then again, I think debates rarely do shift anything dramatically. Every bit of evidence I've read suggests they are what they are. Had Kaine tanked the whole debate, I don't know. Maybe. Had Allen come out with one good "MACACA!" ... maybe.
But I'm not seeing anything alarming from this. Really.
FSogol
(45,481 posts)beer money.
askyeshua
(59 posts)Take a chill pill bro. Granted he goofed, but as has been already pointed out, he is running against the Macaca guy, and I am not sure this will go anywhere past next couple days of news cycles. So calm down, and try decaf
Jeff In Milwaukee
(13,992 posts)I can't believe someone would be to cataclysmically stupid (maybe I'm being too kind) to walk into this trap. THE ANSWER for you Democratic Candidates who read DU is this:
The 47% pay Social Security taxes, they pay Medicare/Medicaid taxes, they pay Motor Fuel taxes, they pay Excise taxes, they pay State taxes, they pay Municipal taxes, they pay Municipal Fees, they pay School Fees, and a host of other payments to support the federal, state and local infrastructure.
What a dumb ass....
MADem
(135,425 posts)And then he said the 47 percent pay more in taxes as a percentage of income than MITT did!
This is one of those "concern threads," nothing more.
KAINE: Everyone pays taxes.
GREGORY: But federal income taxes?
KAINE: I would be open to a proposal that would have some minimum tax level for everyone. But I do insist -- many of the 47 percent that Gov. Romney was going after pay a higher percentage of their income in taxes than he does.
fugop
(1,828 posts)But I guess with all the bad news for the GOP, people are really reaching to pin something on a Democrat.
Tim Kaine was fine. And Allen's ad is a lie, if it's actually saying Tim Kaine WANTS this kind of tax. Tim Kaine said he's open to a proposal ... he didn't say he's making such a proposal.
This is just .. like I said, reaching for something to hit a Democrat with. I guess too much good news is bound to cause drama over nothing. I just don't see a problem here.
Jeff In Milwaukee
(13,992 posts)Is a dumb ass statement. So we're supposed to go to a disabled veteran and say, "We think you should pay us something because...you know...just because."
Stupid freaking statement that supports the Republican meme and undercuts HIS OWN POINT. When you're talking about people who don[t pay taxes, but should, the only words that should come out of your mouth should be the litany of corporations who rig the tax code to their benefit, and a certain Presidential candidate who parks his money offshore.
Suggesting that everybody should pay something is to suggest that my 79-year-old mother who lives on Social Security should start paying taxes on her benefits.
Edit: Although I admit that "Kaine lost the election" is a little over-the-top. He just didn't help himself.
MADem
(135,425 posts)His point, which hit home, was that the 47 percent in Romney's mind pay more in taxes as a percentage of their income than RMoney ever did. The "open" bit was strictly "open to discuss" not "open to approve."
As I said, you can tax everyone and you can also give them an exemption. It's a game people play. The GOP does it with vigor. Kaine was shutting down a line of questioning by saying "I will listen to those proposals" and nothing more.
Jeff In Milwaukee
(13,992 posts)Understand that? NOT. As in: No fucking way are we going to start taxing poor people just because a pack of plutocrats think we should. It's a non-starter. It's not subject to debate because it's a hateful idea.
When Kaine says, "Oh maybe. We could discuss it." He's undercutting a fundamental progressive premise that rich people are supposed to pay more than poor people. And he makes himself look weak. When a Republican drags out this lame talking point, the proper response is to spit in his eye.
This lack of message discipline is why we lose elections.
MADem
(135,425 posts)is not the way of the Democratic Party. Kaine isn't in favor of taxing poor people either--they are already taxed, as he pointed out.
He simply said he'd discuss the point, not that he agreed to it.
You are refusing, for reasons that are unclear to me, to acknowledge Kaine's nuance in the discussion. He accomplished two things by saying what he said--he shut down Gregory's line of questioning, and moved the debate forward so he could articulate positions of importance to him.
Your last sentence is very curious--we're on a winning team; those of us who are Democrats, that is--and that's a nice place to be. We are not lockstep monoliths with a single POV, we're Democrats. Kaine is a bit to my right in some regards, but he's a Democrat who will exercise discipline when the leader in the Senate tells him to, and that's good enough for me.
We will win this Presidential contest, and if we stay focused, we'll earn some downticket gains, too. Kaine has Macaca Man on the ropes, so your gloom/doom predictions are curious with regard to this election.
Jeff In Milwaukee
(13,992 posts)You know that old saying about never bring a knife to a gun fight? You're bringing a wet dishrag.
Until Democrats grow a pair and learn how to bring a powerful and consistent message, the Republicans will continue to prosper.
MADem
(135,425 posts)and when the Democrats score a decisive win this fall, you might want to think about how being bullying and unilateral -- a classic Bushco tactic -- doesn't work.
We are the Big Tent party, and in a big tent, you see a wide range of views. If you can't deal with that, go huddle in one corner of the big tent, but don't ever think you're going to enjoy a My Way or the Highway Democratic Party. Our broad appeal is a consequence of our tolerance for differing views.
Jeff In Milwaukee
(13,992 posts)Candidate MADem? Will you fight for the middle class?
-- Why yes, I will. Although I'm open to discussion about screwing to the fucking wall.
Candidate MADem? Will you protect the environment?
-- Why yes, I will. But I'm willing to talk about gutting the EPA and the Endangered Species Act.
Candidate MADem? Are you pro-choice?
-- Why yes, I am. But I'm willing to discuss banning abortion.
This is not a fucking school debate. It's a fucking political campaign. This is about putting forward a consistent message that people will remember when they go into the voters booth. Saying that you'd be opening to forcing elderly and poor persons to federal income taxes (even when they can't afford it), if a fucking stupid position, it's not a progressive position, and no candidate should be "open to debate" on the subject.
MADem
(135,425 posts)than you ever have in your life. So forgive me if I pay scant attention to your hectoring "internet scoldings" replete with junior high invective.
Take your "fucking school debate" and stick it wherever it makes you happy. Your immaturity is disheartening to see on a Democratic message board and it does not advance the party's core values--it just makes you continue to appear to be childish and obstreperous. I remain pleased, though, that you do not represent the majority of Democrats with your O'Reilly-like blustering and demands for lockstep loyalty on any particular issue. That is not how the party operates--a Democrat in Massachusetts is often holding very different views than a Democrat in Montana--and this is the truth even if you don't happen to like it. Our party does have regional flavors, so, to use your "My Way or the Highway" attitude, you're just going to have to DEAL WITH THAT.
One more time, just to make it perfectly clear--one can discuss an issue without ever "agreeing" to it. Discussion gives one an opportunity to refute the opposing views all the more decisively. Saying "Shut the fuck up because I said so" and "Naah naaah naaah I can't HEEEEAAAR YOU!!!" is what the OTHER team does--not the Democrats. So you should just stop doing that.
Persuasion--not dictation. That's how we win. Try it sometime. For a change.
Jeff In Milwaukee
(13,992 posts)That was quite an impressive rant that the failed to persuade or to dictate.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Jeff In Milwaukee
(13,992 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)Jeff In Milwaukee
(13,992 posts)which is telling just about all I need to know about you.
MADem
(135,425 posts)others "seem to" be doing; because you are always wrong.
Jeff In Milwaukee
(13,992 posts)Just reread that thread and I never said anything even remotely of the kind. No wonder trying to discuss something with you is so utterly pointless. You hear what you think you hear. Sounds like Dissociative Identity Disorder, but I'll leave that to the professionals.
The point is this. When your political opponent offers up an issue with which you can beat him senseless, you simply say "Thank You" and start pounding. You don't say, "You know, you may have a point" because that pretty much takes away the advantage that you had. For Tim Kaine to say, "Well, I'd be open to a discussion" about taxing the income of disabled veterans and the elderly, is politically stupid.
And I'm not the only one who thinks so:
David Gregory asked Kaine, a Democrat running for Senate in centrist Virginia, whether everyone in the state should be required to pay something in federal income taxes. Kaine said he is open to the idea. He stumbled into a trap Republicans had set for themselves. (Stromberg - Washington Post)
Mitt Romney and (apparently) Tim Kaine arent the only politicians who have a problem with poor and middle class people paying no income tax. In April, House Majority Leader Eric Cantor worried [O]ver 45 percent of the people in this country dont pay income taxes at all, and we have to question whether thats fair. Part of the problem is today, only 53% pay any federal income tax at all; 47% pay nothing, said Rep. Michele Bachmann (R-MN) last July, ahead of her presidential primary candidacy. We need to broaden the base so that everybody pays something, even if its a dollar. (Talking Points Memo)
Shortly after leaving the debate stage, Allen went after his Democratic opponent, telling reporters: Its typical of Tim Kaine. His record is always one of looking to raise taxes. When he was governor, he tried to raise taxes on people earning as little as $17,000 a year. He wanted to raise taxes on buying used cars.
Kaine, who had said in the debate that he would be open to some minimum tax level for everyone, later qualified his statement, noting that he had not actually proposed a minimum income tax. (Virginia Politcs)
This is one of the dumbest ways a politician can get tripped up. No one -- literally no one -- has a serious proposal that would make "everyone" pay a minimum income tax. This was obvious in 2011, when Michele Bachmann was occasionally asked to explain this concept, and muttered some stuff about even paying "a dollar" would learn 'em about how government cost money. Any Democrat, especially a Virginia Democrat, knows that any statement that sounds like willingness to raise taxes can be turned into 100,000 or so TV ads. (Slate)
Thursday, Democrat Tim Kaine said he is "open" to a new tax that would hit all Americans, even the poorest. Meanwhile Republicans are putting together political ads featuring Kaine's remarks. (examiner.com)
Politico simply referred to Kaine's statement as an "unforced error" which is about as kind as it gets.
BONUS MATERIAL: Guess what George Allen has as the lead story on his website. If you said, "Tim Kaine making a fool of himself over poor people and taxes" you'd be right.
http://virginiaforgeorgeallen.com/?gclid=CKqX9qqOyrICFStgMgodelkA6g
So tell me again how this was a brilliant political move...
MADem
(135,425 posts)You're quoting David "Corporate Sellout" Gregory as your "back up?" And then you tell us what Macaca Boy has on HIS website, like that matters?
Ohhh kay....
I just left Virginia this afternoon. I'm not worried about Kaine's prospects. But you go on ahead and stew in all the "concern" you can muster, now.
Response to MADem (Reply #65)
Post removed
MADem
(135,425 posts)It's as plain as the nose on your face--you just can't help yourself. You can't argue on the merits; you have to get personal and fling shit. Talk about a waste of time.
And your personal insults reflect on you--and you alone. Most Deocrats I know can disagree without being disagreeable, but that plainly is not a talent of yours--your last sentence in your most recent post clearly reflects your inability on that score.
JRLeft
(7,010 posts)Last edited Thu Sep 20, 2012, 04:14 PM - Edit history (1)
Ikonoklast
(23,973 posts)That doesn't even register on the meter.
But, keep up with the agenda. It's your time to waste.
animalcrackers
(93 posts)Just give the facts of who is the 47%, that they do contribute to the economy, and that being part of this 47% doe not mean you are an unemployed tit sucking leach who has no personal responsibility. I mean wasn't the creation of the deductions that led to this number largely due to Reagan/Bush tax reform (EITC for example) - reform that was put in place to encourage people into the job market? The EITC is widely regarded as sucessful, and it would be hard for republicans to denounce Reagan policies (if they do it just highlights the current trends int the GOP). Hell, he could even cite the CTJ, there findins show that the current tax system is relatively proportional for total taxes paid to total income earned. sigh
FrenchieCat
(68,867 posts)is what keeps me away from here,
and keeps me working to register voters!
MADem
(135,425 posts)great white snark
(2,646 posts)Much respect for you and your GOTV effort.
RBInMaine
(13,570 posts)KamaAina
(78,249 posts)Remember, Sen. Macaca was being groomed for the pResidency before the macaca incident. If he somehow manages to win this, he'll be rehabilitated the way Soviet leaders used to be from time to time.
elleng
(130,895 posts)Guy Whitey Corngood
(26,500 posts)Coyotl
(15,262 posts)Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)cecilfirefox
(784 posts)davidpdx
(22,000 posts)But then again this is DU, so why should it surprise anyone. I think it was a mistake for him to say it, but I'm not throwing an all out shit fit about it. Geesh get a grip people!
Some of the comments up thread are extremely and bullying nature.