Bernie Sanders Backs Bill That Would Undo A Gun Law He Voted For

[MrWendel]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/bernie-sanders-guns_569bac04e4b0778f46f99ef7

Hillary Clinton is "delighted" he "flip-flopped" on a law shielding gun manufacturers and dealers from lawsuits.

CHARLESTON, S.C. -- Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) on Saturday night distanced himself from a law he voted for that gave gun manufacturers and dealers legal immunity, announcing that he supports a bill that would amend the law.

In 2005, Sanders, as a congressman, voted for the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act, a bill backed by the National Rifle Association that shielded gun makers and sellers from being sued if their guns were used to commit crimes. Then-Sens. Hillary Clinton of New York and Barack Obama of Illinois voted against the bill.

Sanders’ new position on the legislation came the night before he was set to face off against Clinton and former Maryland Gov. Martin O’Malley in the last Democratic presidential debate, in Charleston, South Carolina, before the Iowa caucuses Feb. 1 and New Hampshire primary Feb. 9.

Sanders has gradually expressed more of an openness to revisit the law since Clinton’s campaign began to use it as an illustration of his mixed record on gun control. Last June, Sanders’ campaign manager, Jeff Weaver, said that the senator would make the same vote for the immunity law were it to come up again. In December, Sanders said that he was open to rethinking the law, but wouldn’t call his vote a mistake. Earlier this month, he said he’d vote to revise it.

(More in link)

[99th_Monkey]

1. Good! That removes the ONE disagreement I had with Bernie

Makes sense. Bernie is now running for President of the entire nation, and not as a representative
of a state full of responsible gun-owners anymore. So it just makes sense he would reposition
himself to be acting as president of the USA, and not just Vermont.

[pipoman]

9. His support for PLCAA was the right vote....only liars selling a bill of goods

To the stupid pretend it is anything else.

[99th_Monkey]

13. You're calling people 'liars' and 'stupid', but you're not even clear who you are talking about

if you're going to throw around such incendiary epitaphs, please at least be clear
who you are talking about and why.

[pipoman]

17. Liars are those stating PLCAA shields manufacturers and dealers from prosecution for criminal acts

or defects in their products...And the stupid are those who blindly believe the liars....

[99th_Monkey]

62. So you're calling Hillary a liar? She praises Sanders "joining her" in supporting it. nt

[pipoman]

71. Yes, she has repeatedly lied about PLCAA...

[99th_Monkey]

72. Can't argue with that. nt

[grntuscarora]

42. +1!

nt

[CorporatistNation]

54. Hillary Has Been Less Than Truthful On The Gun Issue As She Has on Most Everything Else..

Bernie D - NRA Rating!

The Gun thing and her position makes Hillary entirely un-electable for crossover to vote for her. Plenty Repubs/Indys will/would crossover to vote against her. Bernie is the safe choice IF you want a democratic Nominee that WILL WINN!

[John Poet]

78. Hillary...

... or so she says now...

[stone space]

2. Bravo, Bernie!

It's a flip, not a flop.

There's a difference.

[MrWendel]

3. Right....

He EVOLVED. EVERYONE ELSE flip flops.

[stone space]

4. He flipped. There's a difference between flipping and flopping.

I support flips.

But not flops.

One really needs to distinguish between the two.

I've been playing this broken record for a long time now.

I really should do an OP on it...I'm feeling clever...lol.

[MrWendel]

22. Please...

explain the difference.

[stone space]

23. Flips are good. Flops are bad.

Now, I could have used the opposite convention, but "flops are good" just doesn't do it for me, somehow.

[MrWendel]

25. They are also...

two sides of the same coin.

[stone space]

28. Perhaps an illustration might help.

In 1996, then Senator Obama answered a questionnaire saying that he supported gay marriage.

Later he backed off from that and switched to civil unions, instead.

That one was a flop.

Even later, he came out in favor of full marriage equality, supporting gay marriage openly.

That one was a flip.

Does that help?

[MrWendel]

57. No.

Do you have a link to a dictionary definition that I can go to though? Your the first person I have ever heard of try to use this explanation. Like EVER.

[stone space]

68. I'm guessing that the dictionary definition of a "flop"...

...isn't all that far from how I am using the term.

Not so sure about "flip".

But it seems reasonable to use the term "flip" for the flip-side of a "flop".

But if my example above doesn't help, not sure what else I can say.

[stone space]

70. Do you see a distinction between the two switches in my examples?

Or is supporting marriage the same as opposing marriage in your mind?

I'm merely proposing terminology for a clear difference that every reasonable person can see.

Call it what you want, but there is a difference, and we all can see it.

[MrWendel]

73. The way I see it...

It would be an evolution, except....

He changed for political reasons, days before the final debate before the voting begin.

Therefore, flip/flop. But you can spin it anyway you would like I suppose, or do you have a new definition for spin too?

[John Poet]

79. Flopping is less politically-coordinated

and kinda ugly.

Flipping takes more skill, and comes out prettier than flopping.

Flopping is a failed flip.

[pipoman]

12. He didn't do either

He is placating the stupid, lazy and ignorant in the party and silencing the liars who have pretended PLCAA is something it isn't....

[stone space]

14. Well, at least you aren't trolling the Martin O'Malley room any more. (nt)

[pipoman]

18. Ooooo....I thought I would get an earful outside of that group...lol

[stone space]

20. In that group both you and I are guests. Well, maybe not you any more. (nt)

[draa]

5. Good for Sanders.

I think Clinton has changed her mind on multiple issues she once supported. From the Iraq war, welfare reform, bankruptcy reform, high credit card fees, and single payer.

When you do it once it can be called common sense. When you do it repeatedly it should be called... well, you know what it's called so there.

[Perogie]

6. ....

Last edited Sun Feb 7, 2016, 12:44 PM - Edit history (1)

[stone space]

16. If you are concerned, you should tell the Clown car to add Washing Machines to the PLCAA.

Then Maytag will play under Lucky Gunner's current rules.

The Democratic Candidates, as well as President Obama, want Lucky Gunner to play under Maytag's current rules.

[beevul]

24. Nobody sues Maytag under maytag rules, even if someone misuses a maytag for murder.

If certain anti-gun assclowns hadn't tried to use the courts to get a result they couldn't achieve in the legislature, the PLCAA wouldn't be needed to solve that problem.

[stone space]

44. Let them play under the same rules. You want special protections. (ny)

[beevul]

46. Why? The right to sue is not absolute.

Let them play under the same rules.

Why? The right to sue is not absolute. This is a reasonable restriction on that right, since suing a company for criminal misuse of a legally manufactured and legally sold product is patently unreasonable.

You want special protections.

Only from special attacks.

[stone space]

47. What makers arms manufacturers so special?

And why do they attack the families of gun victims?

Do you have any idea just how immoral that is?

[beevul]

48. Ask the people who single them out for attack...

What makers arms manufacturers so special?

Ask the people who single them out for attack, they're the ones that think arms manufacturers are special.

And why do they attack the families of gun victims?

Cite please.

Do you have any idea just how immoral that is?

Not without a cite, nope.

[stone space]

49. Disengenuous. (nt)

[beevul]

50. Confession is good for the soul. N/T

[stone space]

51. Your games are familiar to me. (nt)

[beevul]

53. Your games are familiar to everyone.

[Perogie]

41. You do know that ammo and guns are two different things don't you?

[stone space]

45. Is this one of those stupid clips vs magazine distractions? (nt)

[LittleBlue]

66. Bingo. Might as well sue a Toyota for traffic fatalities

Or sue a hot tub manufacturer for someone drowning.

Bernie was correct the first time.

[pablo_marmol]

67. Exactly right.

It's a sad day in Democratic politics when a great man like Bernie is forced to retract an honest vote, and talk nonsense about "assault weapons", "gun show loopholes" etc. to be electable within the party.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=1303750

[MoonRiver]

7. He's feeling the heat

and it's not a bern!

[Sheepshank]

8. The damage is already done...thanks Bernie

Putting that horse back in the barn will be neigh (yes, it's intended to be a pun) impossible. The constant feeding that NRA troll has turned it into a monster. Thanks Bernie.

[Fawke Em]

11. A D- hardly constitutes constant feeding.

In fact, the NRA would have starved if it was relying on Bernie to feed them.

[Sheepshank]

21. The NRA helped Bernie along too....it was a lovely handshake for those two.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

10. Good. Even more reason to vote for him.

[hrmjustin]

15. This flip flop was about politics not principle.

[stone space]

19. Perhaps, but that's why we invite the candidates to Iowa.

So that we can put pressure on them to address our concerns, which may or may not be reflective of the candidates' principles, but which are certainly in accordance with our own principles.

Hell, some folks here in Iowa are even trying that with Trump.

Oldest Mosque in Nation Invites Donald Trump to Visit (Mother Mosque of America, Cedar Rapids, Iowa)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027529248

No response so far...and I'm not holding my breath.

[cantbeserious]

27. There Was No Flip Flop - Bernie Will Review And Consider A New Bill Entering Congress

eom

[hrmjustin]

32. Yes there was. He vited wpone way and due to political pressure he caved in.

[cantbeserious]

33. Your Opinion Only - Other See The World Differently

eom

[hrmjustin]

34. It is fairly obvious. Only people who don't want to admit it can't see it.

[cantbeserious]

35. It Is Fairly Obvious - That This Is Your Opinion - Others See The World Differently

eom

[hrmjustin]

36. Well if they want to paint over reality and live in a fantasy that is their right.

[cantbeserious]

37. Nice Try - One Is Living In A Fantasy - Spin On

eom

[hrmjustin]

38. Lol enjoy your fantasy.

[cantbeserious]

39. Yes Enjoy Your Fantasy - These Feet And This Citizen Are Firmly Planted In Reality

eom

[hrmjustin]

40. So you say.

[stone space]

43. It was a flip, not a flop. There's a difference.

But it was a flip.

[uponit7771]

31. +1, this is what would be said about Hillary.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

69. I'll need a source, please.

[cantbeserious]

26. No - Bernie Said He Would Review And Consider A New Bill Entering Congress

eom

[DemocratSinceBirth]

29. Just wanted to applaud your choice of avatars.

Gawd was he something.

[silenttigersong]

30. Torts and tarts

[Ed Suspicious]

52. Annie Oakley in the duck blind every Sunday with her six-shooter. How's that for flippy floppies?

[MrWendel]

55. Do you...

copy and paste this in most threads?

[Ed Suspicious]

56. No.

Did you watch it? It's interesting to see the shift in position that Secretary Clinton has made on the gun issue that ya'll so feverishly want to rebuke Bernie for.

[MrWendel]

58. Actually ...

You posted this exact response verbatim in another thread. This one.

Link: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1016&pid=142076

[Ed Suspicious]

60. I know. I was answering your question. The one you asked.

"Do you copy and paste this in most threads?"


No I do not. Of my 6k plus posts I'm going to guess three or four are the post in question. Certainly not in most threads by any stretch of the imagination.

[ZombieHorde]

59. I don't understand why a manufacturer should be responsible for how people use their products.

Do people sue car manufacturers because of those who kill while driving intoxicated? Is this a normal thing, or is it just a gun thing? Is the real purpose of the lawsuits political?

[MrWendel]

61. Well...

What's the purpose of a Car? And what is the purpose of a gun?

[ZombieHorde]

64. Transportation for a car and hunting/self defense for a gun.

Both have legal, and in my opinion, valid legal uses.

Just for disclosure, I own neither a car nor a gun, though I used to own both.

[MrWendel]

65. A gun isn't just ...

used for self defense. A car is a tool for travel, a gun is a tool for killing.

[ZombieHorde]

74. There is nothing wrong with killing in the eyes of the vast majority of Americans.

Most of us eat meat. Most of us agree with idea of lethal self defense in extreme situations. Both these things are very legal. So since we, as a society, value killing, I don't understand the difference.

eta: Most cars, when used legally, cause destruction to the environment, which harms all of us, while guns, when used legally, cause destruction to animals for food, and those who are trying to kill us.

[MrWendel]

75. Hunting?

Have at it. Soldiers for example don't use guns for self defence. Criminals, don't use them for self defence, or people with mental issues. What happens when people that are responsible with guns stop being so ... responsible? Who pays? Does it just affect them or the population at large? Chicago is a good test case.

[ZombieHorde]

76. I live in Montana, and most of the people I know either hunt or have hunted.

I've gone hunting, but I don't enjoy it, so I no longer have my rifle.

What is the goal of suing the gun manufacturers?

[MrWendel]

77. To be honest...

I would rather sue the NRA, I would rather people get registered. And I would love it if people were forced to use smart guns.

[ZombieHorde]

80. I understand registration and smart guns,

but what would be the goal of suing the NRA? What would they be sued for?

[RichVRichV]

63. I'm with you on this.

I'm about as pro gun control as someone can get and I never understood all the angst over this one. It still allows for suits based on defect, negligence, or intentional harm, which is what the courts would require for suing any industry.


The only difference between this law existing and not existing is a bunch of SLAPP suits.