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Can someone explain how Sanders' opposition to reparations because they're not politically viable (Original Post) Empowerer Jan 2016 OP
I saw that very question asked in a rather cogent essay, just today! nt MADem Jan 2016 #1
Can someone explain to me who is coming out for reparations? highprincipleswork Jan 2016 #34
Serious to you maybe, but not the thinking public I'm afraid litlbilly Jan 2016 #2
Since you don't comprise the whole "thinking public" or even likely know their collective views Empowerer Jan 2016 #5
No one can really explain but the man himself. cheapdate Jan 2016 #3
No one focuses on reparations for Latinos and Indians Kalidurga Jan 2016 #29
And yet their case for justice cheapdate Jan 2016 #42
I know Kalidurga Jan 2016 #44
"Obama stands firm against reparations" marble falls Jan 2016 #4
Thank you, but I didn't ask about Obama's views on reparations Empowerer Jan 2016 #6
How does the President and Hillary Clinton square it? Why are you picking on Bernie? marble falls Jan 2016 #10
Poor Bernie Empowerer Jan 2016 #13
Poor Hillary, someone rained on the coronation parade. don't get me wrong.... marble falls Jan 2016 #19
Obama is exempt from criticism because he never made unattainable promises like Sanders does m-lekktor Jan 2016 #8
ah, apparently the talking points are released grasswire Jan 2016 #7
'We Can't Do It!' nt onehandle Jan 2016 #9
Because everyone has their own ideas of what is politically visble Armstead Jan 2016 #11
Oh - I thought that political pragmatism wasn't in Sanders' vocabulary Empowerer Jan 2016 #14
He's a politician. No one says otherwise. Armstead Jan 2016 #22
There is a difference between hard and not viable . aikoaiko Jan 2016 #12
Splitting hairs Empowerer Jan 2016 #15
You're welcome aikoaiko Jan 2016 #16
Bernie has always been pragmatic, that's why he had the good sense not to support invading Iraq Uncle Joe Jan 2016 #30
So you're mind was made up tazkcmo Jan 2016 #32
Single payer support - 50%. Reparations support -15% Prism Jan 2016 #17
So Sanders is basing his support for various policies on the poll numbers and you're ok with that? Empowerer Jan 2016 #18
of course dsc Jan 2016 #21
^^^THIS^^^ SunSeeker Jan 2016 #23
LOL Prism Jan 2016 #27
I'm realistic about it Prism Jan 2016 #26
That's what I would like to know KingFlorez Jan 2016 #20
K & R SunSeeker Jan 2016 #24
Maybe "not politically viable" is a nice way of saying pipoman Jan 2016 #25
I got it. retrowire Jan 2016 #28
Excellent breakdown. draa Jan 2016 #35
You nailed it. Thank you. Empowerer Jan 2016 #38
I guess he's in the same boat as most politicians HassleCat Jan 2016 #31
This message was self-deleted by its author Joe the Revelator Jan 2016 #33
Why are you bringing up slavery? Recursion Jan 2016 #37
Well, there have been people who argued we should make reparations for slavery. aikoaiko Jan 2016 #41
It's silly to you Empowerer Jan 2016 #39
As someone who has worked BlueMTexpat Jan 2016 #36
Uh-oh. You're questioning His Holiness the Sacred Bern. baldguy Jan 2016 #40
False Equivalency Trolling Bernin4U Jan 2016 #43

Empowerer

(3,900 posts)
5. Since you don't comprise the whole "thinking public" or even likely know their collective views
Wed Jan 20, 2016, 12:48 AM
Jan 2016

I'll refrain from relying on you to tell me what the thinking public may or may not be interested in. But thank you for kicking the thread.

cheapdate

(3,811 posts)
3. No one can really explain but the man himself.
Wed Jan 20, 2016, 12:46 AM
Jan 2016

But, one could pick any number of issues that aren't his central focus - justice for Native Americans for instance - and ask the same thing.

Kalidurga

(14,177 posts)
44. I know
Wed Jan 20, 2016, 07:56 PM
Jan 2016

Hispanics in this country are treated worse economically. And my SO has been told to go home. Where? I dunno where they think but he was born in NYC.

marble falls

(57,080 posts)
4. "Obama stands firm against reparations"
Wed Jan 20, 2016, 12:47 AM
Jan 2016

Obama stands firm against reparations

Sunday, August 3, 2008

SPRINGFIELD, Ill. (AP) | Democratic presidential candidate Sen. Barack Obama opposes offering reparations to the descendants of slaves, putting him at odds with some black groups and leaders.

The first black man to win a major-party presidential nomination argues that government should instead combat the legacy of slavery by improving schools, health care and the economy for all.

“I have said in the past - and I’ll repeat again - that the best reparations we can provide are good schools in the inner city and jobs for people who are unemployed,” the Illinois Democrat said recently.


http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/aug/03/obama-stands-firm-against-reparations/?page=all

Empowerer

(3,900 posts)
6. Thank you, but I didn't ask about Obama's views on reparations
Wed Jan 20, 2016, 12:49 AM
Jan 2016

And I'm not even passing judgment on Sanders view of them. I'm just asking how he squares his approach to reparations with his approach to other difficult issues since there seems to be a blatant contradiction between the two.

Empowerer

(3,900 posts)
13. Poor Bernie
Wed Jan 20, 2016, 01:14 AM
Jan 2016

E'erbody's picking on him by asking him a question about his policies.

Why don't they just leave poor Bernie alone?!

marble falls

(57,080 posts)
19. Poor Hillary, someone rained on the coronation parade. don't get me wrong....
Wed Jan 20, 2016, 01:33 AM
Jan 2016

I will vote for her if somehow Bernie doesn't get the nomination. How about asking a substantive question, like why isn't Bernie getting all that Wall Street cash Hillary is? Why doesn't Bernie support capital punishment, three strike laws, mandatory minimum sentences like Hillary does or why is it the private prison industry chooses to sent fat checks to Hillary but not Bernie?

m-lekktor

(3,675 posts)
8. Obama is exempt from criticism because he never made unattainable promises like Sanders does
Wed Jan 20, 2016, 12:53 AM
Jan 2016

Why can Sanders claim other things are attainable that seem out of reach but reparations can't be one of those as well *wink* *wink*. That how they are rationalizing it!

 

Armstead

(47,803 posts)
11. Because everyone has their own ideas of what is politically visble
Wed Jan 20, 2016, 01:06 AM
Jan 2016

And people do not always agee on how best to solve problems.

Sanders has an agenda as do all politicians. He also believes things are more possible than others.

Reparations is not on that agenda.

You don't agree with his agenda and priorities? Fine, don't support him.

Empowerer

(3,900 posts)
14. Oh - I thought that political pragmatism wasn't in Sanders' vocabulary
Wed Jan 20, 2016, 01:18 AM
Jan 2016

So, he's as pragmatic as the next politician. He's picking and choosing what he's going to support and fight for based on what he thinks he can accomplish, not on what he thinks is right.

Nothing at all wrong with that, but it's very different than what we've been sold all along.

Thanks for clarifying.

 

Armstead

(47,803 posts)
22. He's a politician. No one says otherwise.
Wed Jan 20, 2016, 01:36 AM
Jan 2016

Yeah he picks and chooses. Doesn't everyone in this life?

Everyone has their own standards of where to draw the line of realistic. People support Sanders because they believe he is trying to achieve things that have been suppressed, and shouldn't be.

The dismissive attitude towards their enthusiasm -- and misrepresentation of it -- reminds me of what a lot of opponents of Obama said about him and his supporters in 2008.

aikoaiko

(34,169 posts)
12. There is a difference between hard and not viable .
Wed Jan 20, 2016, 01:08 AM
Jan 2016


It's really not that difficult to understand.

Bernie's platform is attainable, but reparations for slavery are not at least not yet. Maybe a Bernie Presidency will sow the seeds of justice.

Other more contemporary injustices of which TNC speaks may or may not still have legal recourse and black folks should seek every legal remedy possible.

Empowerer

(3,900 posts)
15. Splitting hairs
Wed Jan 20, 2016, 01:20 AM
Jan 2016

Hard and viable are in the eye of the beholder.

But thanks for clarifying that Sanders is as pragmatic as the next politician. Nothing wrong with that, but it doesn't quite match his "holier than thou" stance.

Uncle Joe

(58,355 posts)
30. Bernie has always been pragmatic, that's why he had the good sense not to support invading Iraq
Wed Jan 20, 2016, 01:48 AM
Jan 2016

based on a bunch of lies.

He pragmatism told him, it would be opening a Pandora's Box.

On the other hand Hillary wasn't pragmatic because she never took that into consideration on top of actually trusting the same people that committed a coup in Florida and backed disenfranchising the American People from having their votes counted, that's not very pragmatic.



1. of or relating to a practical point of view or practical considerations.


4. treating historical phenomena with special reference to their causes, antecedent conditions, and results.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/pragmatic?s=t





7.mindful of the results, usefulness, advantages or disadvantages, etc., of action or procedure.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/practical?s=t



Furthermore having the good sense to avoid foolish pitfalls and to promote just and profitable policies for all the people doesn't make you "holier than thou" just enlightened, the fact that one can't take on every policy under the sun at once doesn't diminish that.

tazkcmo

(7,300 posts)
32. So you're mind was made up
Wed Jan 20, 2016, 01:58 AM
Jan 2016

when you asked the question in spite of your claims of sincerity.

"Holier than Thou attitude"

Just before I read that, I thought perhaps you were sincere and it would be a fair question to ask every candidate why one piece of legislation is passable but another isn't, in this case , reparations. I trust Sen Sanders to give you a cogent, logical and honest explanation and then he would welcome your input. At the end of the conversation, you may not agree with him but you can know he wasn't bull shitting you or dancing around your question or worse, straight up lying.

Have a nice evening.

 

Prism

(5,815 posts)
17. Single payer support - 50%. Reparations support -15%
Wed Jan 20, 2016, 01:27 AM
Jan 2016

Relevant polls:

Single payer -http://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/229959-majority-still-support-single-payer-option-poll-finds

Reparations - https://today.yougov.com/news/2014/06/02/reparations/

If single-payer is considered this impossible, radical concept when a majority of Americans support it, and Sanders is depicted as some kind of unrealistic dreamer even by some Democrats for it, honestly, what chance does reparations have in this climate?

If single-payer is being portrayed as seemingly impossible as a majority supports it, then reparations would have to be relegated to pure fantasy at 15%.

I support economic reparations, but I think this criticism of Sanders is pretty weak.

Empowerer

(3,900 posts)
18. So Sanders is basing his support for various policies on the poll numbers and you're ok with that?
Wed Jan 20, 2016, 01:32 AM
Jan 2016

Got it. Thanks.

dsc

(52,160 posts)
21. of course
Wed Jan 20, 2016, 01:36 AM
Jan 2016

if you are woman and you do that you are a vile politician but if you are a man and do that you are smart.

 

Prism

(5,815 posts)
26. I'm realistic about it
Wed Jan 20, 2016, 01:44 AM
Jan 2016

Just as I wasn't super pissed off Al Gore didn't support gay marriage in 2000. Even as I supported Obama in the 2008 primary as he elicited support from religiously conservative homophobes (although I was a bit more irked about that one. I felt the nation had come far enough).

And look, you know, this whole line of attack is weird. Clinton isn't supporting it, and the people who seem most angry about it, including yourself, don't really seem to like Sanders anyway. So I don't honestly get the point of the exercise. I would think any ire on the issue would be directed towards the candidate I actually supported because I would expect better of them. So faulting an opponent for a standard you don't intend anyone else to meet is an exercise in extreme disingenuousness.

You seem upset that the image of the man you painted, Bernie Sanders the Radical Promoter of Impossible Policies, isn't supporting something with absolutely abysmal support in this country.

It's setting yourself up for disappointment.

 

pipoman

(16,038 posts)
25. Maybe "not politically viable" is a nice way of saying
Wed Jan 20, 2016, 01:43 AM
Jan 2016

that the idea of reparations in 2016 is ridiculous.

retrowire

(10,345 posts)
28. I got it.
Wed Jan 20, 2016, 01:45 AM
Jan 2016

Bernie is running a platform on things that the majority wants. Equal Rights, Ending an Oligarchy, Medicare For All, Stopping Police Brutality, Decriminalizing Marijuana and many other things.

Why does Bernie see that reparations aren't politically viable?

Because they aren't... Yet....

We still live in a society that is racially charged AS SHIT.

White privilege and supremacy still permeates throughout.

And as such, reparations are still an issue that's too divisive.

All the issues that Bernie's running on now? They're popular. Sure they're kind of divisive, but not AS DIVISIVE AS reparations still are.

I believe someone stated that reparations would not remove white supremacy, but it would put a dent in it. But judging by our current climate, I don't think reparations can be done, UNTIL the idea of white supremacy was gotten rid of.

Nothing is impossible, but reparation's are pretty high on the difficulty level, and in our current society, the racial climate is still not balanced or safe enough for the idea of reparations to get ahead. It sucks ass, but it's likely true.

 

HassleCat

(6,409 posts)
31. I guess he's in the same boat as most politicians
Wed Jan 20, 2016, 01:52 AM
Jan 2016

Most think reparations are a bad idea, but they feel they can't come right out and say so. The president says so, and makes it clear reparations are not a good idea. Sanders is blowing off the idea, but he's taking the easy way out, or the polite way out, or the deceptive way out (take your pick) by saying it's politically impossible.

Response to Empowerer (Original post)

aikoaiko

(34,169 posts)
41. Well, there have been people who argued we should make reparations for slavery.
Wed Jan 20, 2016, 10:36 AM
Jan 2016

Randall Robinson for one.

Even TNC includes slavery in his case for reparations and does not take it off the table. Sure, I understand he also includes more contemporary financially disenfranchising acts in his case, but slavery is there too.

Empowerer

(3,900 posts)
39. It's silly to you
Wed Jan 20, 2016, 08:52 AM
Jan 2016

But not to many other people.

But I guess the standard for the Sanders revolution is that the revolution will only change things that are not too hard to change.

Doesn't sound like much of a revolution, but thanks for clarifying.

BlueMTexpat

(15,368 posts)
36. As someone who has worked
Wed Jan 20, 2016, 04:36 AM
Jan 2016

quite specifically on international reparations issues (although the former term was "compensation&quot for nearly 20 years, I can tell you that ANY reparations are possible when and where there is a political will. So yes, on the face of it, one wonders why this would be any less politically viable than moving our healthcare system to Medicare for all or breaking up Wall Street banks would be. Selective political choices indeed, IMO.

But - and this is a BIG but - the problem with reparations alone when there are millions of claimants is that programs often can only offer the merest symbolic amounts rather than anything anywhere near the full due. Anyone who tells you otherwise doesn't really know what they are talking about.

There is also a LOT of administrative overhead involved. It's not only the reparations amounts that need to be taken into account, but also the costs of determining amounts and actually paying them out. Even with comparatively streamlined registration and determinations procedures and using the barest minimal standard of proof for eligibility (e.g., any AA whose ancestors lived in the "North" before 1840 and any AA whose ancestors lived in the "South" before 1865), such a program would require staff, offices, and all other accoutrements.

Worst of all, after all this expenditure, what would be the actual result other than what is likely to be only a few extra dollars in the pockets of individuals? It is very likely that the underlying problems of discrimination, inequality, racism, police bias and brutality would remain and likely worsen. Equal Opportunity laws were enacted in part to address these failings, but they have been watered down to meaninglessness.

I firmly believe that even symbolic amounts have values for those who have been wronged or I never would have participated in reparations/compensation programs. But aren't societal reformation and change more practical goals? If so, they can be accomplished in ways that can have more lasting effects and through existing administrative structures, e.g., better schools, better housing, better opportunities, etc.

I would be very happy to be convinced otherwise.

Bernin4U

(812 posts)
43. False Equivalency Trolling
Wed Jan 20, 2016, 06:35 PM
Jan 2016

Sorry that many here have apparently become so cynical that any time Bernie speaks, you can only hear unicorns and fairy dust. So it's all "equally impossible" to you.

It's your problem, not ours.

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