2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumCan someone explain how Sanders' opposition to reparations because they're not politically viable
squares with his "we won't be stopped just because it's hard" approach to other seemingly impossible goals?
Serious question.
MADem
(135,425 posts)highprincipleswork
(3,111 posts)litlbilly
(2,227 posts)Empowerer
(3,900 posts)I'll refrain from relying on you to tell me what the thinking public may or may not be interested in. But thank you for kicking the thread.
cheapdate
(3,811 posts)But, one could pick any number of issues that aren't his central focus - justice for Native Americans for instance - and ask the same thing.
Kalidurga
(14,177 posts)cheapdate
(3,811 posts)is every bit as strong as that of African Americans.
Kalidurga
(14,177 posts)Hispanics in this country are treated worse economically. And my SO has been told to go home. Where? I dunno where they think but he was born in NYC.
marble falls
(57,080 posts)Obama stands firm against reparations
Sunday, August 3, 2008
SPRINGFIELD, Ill. (AP) | Democratic presidential candidate Sen. Barack Obama opposes offering reparations to the descendants of slaves, putting him at odds with some black groups and leaders.
The first black man to win a major-party presidential nomination argues that government should instead combat the legacy of slavery by improving schools, health care and the economy for all.
I have said in the past - and Ill repeat again - that the best reparations we can provide are good schools in the inner city and jobs for people who are unemployed, the Illinois Democrat said recently.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/aug/03/obama-stands-firm-against-reparations/?page=all
Empowerer
(3,900 posts)And I'm not even passing judgment on Sanders view of them. I'm just asking how he squares his approach to reparations with his approach to other difficult issues since there seems to be a blatant contradiction between the two.
marble falls
(57,080 posts)Empowerer
(3,900 posts)E'erbody's picking on him by asking him a question about his policies.
Why don't they just leave poor Bernie alone?!
marble falls
(57,080 posts)I will vote for her if somehow Bernie doesn't get the nomination. How about asking a substantive question, like why isn't Bernie getting all that Wall Street cash Hillary is? Why doesn't Bernie support capital punishment, three strike laws, mandatory minimum sentences like Hillary does or why is it the private prison industry chooses to sent fat checks to Hillary but not Bernie?
m-lekktor
(3,675 posts)Why can Sanders claim other things are attainable that seem out of reach but reparations can't be one of those as well *wink* *wink*. That how they are rationalizing it!
grasswire
(50,130 posts)This latest attack will also fail.
onehandle
(51,122 posts)Armstead
(47,803 posts)And people do not always agee on how best to solve problems.
Sanders has an agenda as do all politicians. He also believes things are more possible than others.
Reparations is not on that agenda.
You don't agree with his agenda and priorities? Fine, don't support him.
Empowerer
(3,900 posts)So, he's as pragmatic as the next politician. He's picking and choosing what he's going to support and fight for based on what he thinks he can accomplish, not on what he thinks is right.
Nothing at all wrong with that, but it's very different than what we've been sold all along.
Thanks for clarifying.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)Yeah he picks and chooses. Doesn't everyone in this life?
Everyone has their own standards of where to draw the line of realistic. People support Sanders because they believe he is trying to achieve things that have been suppressed, and shouldn't be.
The dismissive attitude towards their enthusiasm -- and misrepresentation of it -- reminds me of what a lot of opponents of Obama said about him and his supporters in 2008.
aikoaiko
(34,169 posts)It's really not that difficult to understand.
Bernie's platform is attainable, but reparations for slavery are not at least not yet. Maybe a Bernie Presidency will sow the seeds of justice.
Other more contemporary injustices of which TNC speaks may or may not still have legal recourse and black folks should seek every legal remedy possible.
Empowerer
(3,900 posts)Hard and viable are in the eye of the beholder.
But thanks for clarifying that Sanders is as pragmatic as the next politician. Nothing wrong with that, but it doesn't quite match his "holier than thou" stance.
aikoaiko
(34,169 posts)It was a oleasure helping you.
Uncle Joe
(58,355 posts)based on a bunch of lies.
He pragmatism told him, it would be opening a Pandora's Box.
On the other hand Hillary wasn't pragmatic because she never took that into consideration on top of actually trusting the same people that committed a coup in Florida and backed disenfranchising the American People from having their votes counted, that's not very pragmatic.
1. of or relating to a practical point of view or practical considerations.
4. treating historical phenomena with special reference to their causes, antecedent conditions, and results.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/pragmatic?s=t
7.mindful of the results, usefulness, advantages or disadvantages, etc., of action or procedure.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/practical?s=t
Furthermore having the good sense to avoid foolish pitfalls and to promote just and profitable policies for all the people doesn't make you "holier than thou" just enlightened, the fact that one can't take on every policy under the sun at once doesn't diminish that.
tazkcmo
(7,300 posts)when you asked the question in spite of your claims of sincerity.
"Holier than Thou attitude"
Just before I read that, I thought perhaps you were sincere and it would be a fair question to ask every candidate why one piece of legislation is passable but another isn't, in this case , reparations. I trust Sen Sanders to give you a cogent, logical and honest explanation and then he would welcome your input. At the end of the conversation, you may not agree with him but you can know he wasn't bull shitting you or dancing around your question or worse, straight up lying.
Have a nice evening.
Prism
(5,815 posts)Relevant polls:
Single payer -http://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/229959-majority-still-support-single-payer-option-poll-finds
Reparations - https://today.yougov.com/news/2014/06/02/reparations/
If single-payer is considered this impossible, radical concept when a majority of Americans support it, and Sanders is depicted as some kind of unrealistic dreamer even by some Democrats for it, honestly, what chance does reparations have in this climate?
If single-payer is being portrayed as seemingly impossible as a majority supports it, then reparations would have to be relegated to pure fantasy at 15%.
I support economic reparations, but I think this criticism of Sanders is pretty weak.
Empowerer
(3,900 posts)Got it. Thanks.
if you are woman and you do that you are a vile politician but if you are a man and do that you are smart.
SunSeeker
(51,550 posts)Just, LOL. Seriously.
Prism
(5,815 posts)Just as I wasn't super pissed off Al Gore didn't support gay marriage in 2000. Even as I supported Obama in the 2008 primary as he elicited support from religiously conservative homophobes (although I was a bit more irked about that one. I felt the nation had come far enough).
And look, you know, this whole line of attack is weird. Clinton isn't supporting it, and the people who seem most angry about it, including yourself, don't really seem to like Sanders anyway. So I don't honestly get the point of the exercise. I would think any ire on the issue would be directed towards the candidate I actually supported because I would expect better of them. So faulting an opponent for a standard you don't intend anyone else to meet is an exercise in extreme disingenuousness.
You seem upset that the image of the man you painted, Bernie Sanders the Radical Promoter of Impossible Policies, isn't supporting something with absolutely abysmal support in this country.
It's setting yourself up for disappointment.
KingFlorez
(12,689 posts)SunSeeker
(51,550 posts)pipoman
(16,038 posts)that the idea of reparations in 2016 is ridiculous.
retrowire
(10,345 posts)Bernie is running a platform on things that the majority wants. Equal Rights, Ending an Oligarchy, Medicare For All, Stopping Police Brutality, Decriminalizing Marijuana and many other things.
Why does Bernie see that reparations aren't politically viable?
Because they aren't... Yet....
We still live in a society that is racially charged AS SHIT.
White privilege and supremacy still permeates throughout.
And as such, reparations are still an issue that's too divisive.
All the issues that Bernie's running on now? They're popular. Sure they're kind of divisive, but not AS DIVISIVE AS reparations still are.
I believe someone stated that reparations would not remove white supremacy, but it would put a dent in it. But judging by our current climate, I don't think reparations can be done, UNTIL the idea of white supremacy was gotten rid of.
Nothing is impossible, but reparation's are pretty high on the difficulty level, and in our current society, the racial climate is still not balanced or safe enough for the idea of reparations to get ahead. It sucks ass, but it's likely true.
draa
(975 posts)You're always on point retrowire. Thanks.
Empowerer
(3,900 posts)HassleCat
(6,409 posts)Most think reparations are a bad idea, but they feel they can't come right out and say so. The president says so, and makes it clear reparations are not a good idea. Sanders is blowing off the idea, but he's taking the easy way out, or the polite way out, or the deceptive way out (take your pick) by saying it's politically impossible.
Response to Empowerer (Original post)
Joe the Revelator This message was self-deleted by its author.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)What's that got to do with reparations?
aikoaiko
(34,169 posts)Randall Robinson for one.
Even TNC includes slavery in his case for reparations and does not take it off the table. Sure, I understand he also includes more contemporary financially disenfranchising acts in his case, but slavery is there too.
Empowerer
(3,900 posts)But not to many other people.
But I guess the standard for the Sanders revolution is that the revolution will only change things that are not too hard to change.
Doesn't sound like much of a revolution, but thanks for clarifying.
BlueMTexpat
(15,368 posts)quite specifically on international reparations issues (although the former term was "compensation" for nearly 20 years, I can tell you that ANY reparations are possible when and where there is a political will. So yes, on the face of it, one wonders why this would be any less politically viable than moving our healthcare system to Medicare for all or breaking up Wall Street banks would be. Selective political choices indeed, IMO.
But - and this is a BIG but - the problem with reparations alone when there are millions of claimants is that programs often can only offer the merest symbolic amounts rather than anything anywhere near the full due. Anyone who tells you otherwise doesn't really know what they are talking about.
There is also a LOT of administrative overhead involved. It's not only the reparations amounts that need to be taken into account, but also the costs of determining amounts and actually paying them out. Even with comparatively streamlined registration and determinations procedures and using the barest minimal standard of proof for eligibility (e.g., any AA whose ancestors lived in the "North" before 1840 and any AA whose ancestors lived in the "South" before 1865), such a program would require staff, offices, and all other accoutrements.
Worst of all, after all this expenditure, what would be the actual result other than what is likely to be only a few extra dollars in the pockets of individuals? It is very likely that the underlying problems of discrimination, inequality, racism, police bias and brutality would remain and likely worsen. Equal Opportunity laws were enacted in part to address these failings, but they have been watered down to meaninglessness.
I firmly believe that even symbolic amounts have values for those who have been wronged or I never would have participated in reparations/compensation programs. But aren't societal reformation and change more practical goals? If so, they can be accomplished in ways that can have more lasting effects and through existing administrative structures, e.g., better schools, better housing, better opportunities, etc.
I would be very happy to be convinced otherwise.
baldguy
(36,649 posts)Such is forbidden.
Bernin4U
(812 posts)Sorry that many here have apparently become so cynical that any time Bernie speaks, you can only hear unicorns and fairy dust. So it's all "equally impossible" to you.
It's your problem, not ours.