Bernie Sanders and the F-35

[Andy823]

I knew Bernie had supported and voted for this plane, but I didn't know everything about it. There is a post over on GD that has a lot of information about this plane, and how much it's costing taxpayers, and who bad it is. Here is the link.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027612226#post23

Here is another link:

http://readersupportednews.org/opinion2/277-75/24583-bernie-sanders-doubles-down-on-f-35-support-days-after-runway-explosion

If you want to put a stop to the waste in the militaries wasteful spending, I don't know how you can support this kind of waste.

[B Calm]

1. How many wasteful military spending programs did Senator Clinton vote for? Oh

yea, The Iraq War!

[Andy823]

9. This is about Bernie

If you want to discuss Hillary then start your own thread.

[B Calm]

14. LOL

[Snotcicles]

68. ^ +1 ^

[cosmicone]

2. Quick answer...

It is not waste if Sanders voted for it.

[EdwardBernays]

8. What is it

When you hire the guy who owns the lobbying firm for Boeing as your campaign chairman...?

Or when you accept millions from the manufacturer in speaking fees and for your "Foundation" while signing off on deals with billions for that same company?

Its not waste... That's true. They certainly didn't waste their money when they gave it to the Clintons.

[Andy823]

11. So it's OK

For Bernie to complain about the money "wasted" on the military, yet he has supported this wast and continues to support it?

[EdwardBernays]

19. It's not ok.

But there's no perfect candidate.

Relative to the gross corruption related to Boeing that Hillary is involved in though, some pork is small potatoes...

He himself acknowledges there was no good option. So he choose what he thought was the least bad one.

I don't approve... In fact that's not the only thing he's done I disapprove of... But he's not claiming it's some amazing achievement. And again relative to hiring the guys that owns Boeing (and Saudi Arabia's) lobbying form, and talking millions from Boeing there's no contest.

[Andy823]

23. The problem is

He isn't trying to stop what is going on. This is pure hypocrisy to slam the military waste when he has been behind this plane from day one, and it's a HUGE waste of money. Why hasn't he come out against it when the facts came out about how bad it is? He doesn't have to continue to support such a waste, now does he?

[PyaarRevolution]

66. You tell 3000 people...

that they're out of a job in something like this. I bet you can't and if you do you won't be re-elected. But nice try.

[beam me up scottie]

24. I kicked your thread but I doubt they'll read it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511108173

More recycled outrage I guess.

[Andy823]

60. Small potatoes

So far it's 1.5 TRILLION dollars. Do you really want to call that small potatoes? The idea that he is not willing to include those "small potatoes" in his plan to cut military spending, says a lot. If you really think 1.5 trillion is "small potatoes" it says a lot about you also.

[cosmicone]

20. ummmm non-sequitur

we are talking about Sanders here who is portrayed as ethical and honest. It is up to Sanders to prove that he is all that. Being just like Hillary is not an issue.

[EdwardBernays]

22. No

Only Sanders bathers pretend he's supposed to be perfect.

Sanders supporters know better.

AND

Since the OP is obviously just Clinton propaganda it's important we all know our options.

And Sanders voting to continue to fund the F35 is small potatoes compared to Hillary's corruption.

[Andy823]

27. Bullshit

No matter what Bernie does, it's overlooked by the radical diehard supporters who trash Clinton on a daily basis. The post is not propaganda, it's facts, and if you don't want to admit his being a hypocrite on this, that's your problem.

[EdwardBernays]

30. :(

It must suck to be you.

I mean so many people hate your corrupt candidate and the pithy nonsense you try and sling at Bernie doesn't stick because it is relative.

Bernie ain't perfect. But relative to the spokesman for Goldman Sachs you're supporting hes pretty damn close.

[Major Nikon]

43. Results...

On Sun Feb 14, 2016, 09:06 PM an alert was sent on the following post:


http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=1234851

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

"It must suck to be you" is a direct personal attack and such attacks should not be tolerated against other DUers. Hide this please.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sun Feb 14, 2016, 09:09 PM, and the Jury voted 3-4 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Psh, please
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Take the garbage out on this one.
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I was trying to read a funny thread and got side-tracked by this lame alert. Now I'm going to look for an angry one to post on.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: personal attack. Hide

[beam me up scottie]

45. Lol! Juror #4 is a funny person.

[polly7]

46. That was me.

I was looking at the cute Bernie baby thread.

[beam me up scottie]

48. Well that sucks. Here's a Bernie baby for you:

[polly7]

49. That is so sweet!

I bet the parents giggle themselves silly doing these little ones up. Probably he does too when he sees them. Especially that hair! lol.

[John Poet]

78. It must suck to be that Alerter... eom

[Andy823]

56. What can I say

First I have no candidate yet. Second I know nobody is perfect, but I also know a case of hypocrisy when I see one. Third nope it don't suck to be me, but nice cheep shot. Good thing the gang was around so you didn't get a hide!

[beam me up scottie]

3. Isn't that the one Hillary wants to sell to Israel?

From what I understand the plane was going to be built anyway and Bernie wanted the jobs for Vermont.

I don't agree with the military spending but he was doing his job and looking out for his constituents.

[EdwardBernays]

5. Yes

She personally lobbied to sell it to Israel and India.

[beam me up scottie]

15. And never made a dime from it.

No speeches to the mic, no lobbying for them, no super PAC, I'm trying to figure out why this is a big deal to Hillary supporters.

[EdwardBernays]

28. It's called

Graphing at straws.

[azurnoir]

38. No it's called facts and in Bernie's case I seem to remember there were jobs at stake

ya know jobs his constituents needed, where on the Hillary hand Israel wanted the planes and Hillary well there's this guy named Haim Saban who's partnered with this other guy named Sheldon Adelson and gosh Mr Saban's wife Cheryl is on the board of the Clinton foundation and while Hillary was SoS and all this was going Mr Saban pledged millions to the Clinton Foundation that was after he contributed millions to Hillary's 2008 campaign and before he contributed millions to her present campaign-see how all that works

[cosmicone]

42. So .. government waste is ok if there are jobs at stake?

Every government program has jobs at stake. Let's not cut anything then because there are jobs at stake.

A more honest answer would be that as a senator from Vermont, he supported the F-35 program for his constituents who depended on the jobs. He voted despite it being a waste because that is what his constituents wanted.

Bernie is just another politician. Just. Another. Politician. He is not a messiah or a saint.

[TheFarseer]

58. I thought you were supposed to represent your constituents

If Bernie is the only senator not trying to bring federal dollars home, is he really doing his job for the people of Vermont? I get that we need to cut the pork out of the budget, but you can't do it unilaterally. At least he's trying to bring home the bacon for voters instead of contributors. This is not a black and white issue.

[cosmicone]

63. So, as a senator from NY, Clinton was ok to support Wall Street?

Amirite?

[TheFarseer]

67. It's a little different

because we are talking about jobs for regular people as opposed to bonuses and dubious tax breaks for millionaires.

[cosmicone]

70. So everyone who works on wall street is a millionaire?

It is amusing to see the double standards ... IOIYABS

[TheFarseer]

74. Missing the point on purpose again?

When people talk about Wall Street, NO ONE is talking about the actual street or the people that happen to work on it. People are talking about the companies that have this stocks traded there and big brokerage firms that trade the stocks and particularly their management. If the issue was all the Wall Street jobs going to Mexico or even Utah, then she should absolutely fight for those jobs but that's not what we are talking about.

[Armstead]

59. That's is basically what he said as his reason

From a video on a post linked in this thread.

"The fact is it's here. You may not like it. I may not like it. But since it is here, my concern is whether the work and jobs will be in Burlington or Florida."

Bernie is honest, for better or worse. Perhaps your not used to that.

[Andy823]

29. I am no a Hillary supporter

I was for O'Malley. I support nobody now, but Bernie can't go around pretending he is some fighter for justice, wanting to cut military springing when he has been supporting this mess from day one, and won't stand up and fight to stop the waste. You can try and change the subject all you want, you can call it propaganda, but Bernie talks a great talk, but he doesn't seem to walk the walk.

[beam me up scottie]

33. He's not perfect but he's doing his job. You guys are the ones claiming he's a purist.

If he's not good enough for you then by all means vote for Hillary, I really don't care but don't expect Bernie's supporters to turn on him because you're suddenly "disillusioned" with him.

It's just another faux scandal that's been hashed to death here, sorry it's not the gotcha you wanted it to be.

You'll find some other reason he's not good enough tomorrow. Just dig through the recycled memes that are reposted here daily.

[Andy823]

51. I am so sorry

I forgot that for some here Bernie walks on water!

[beam me up scottie]

52. If you say so, I'm sure you're not talking about me though, right?

Again, sorry this was such a dud, better luck next time.

[EdwardBernays]

4. There's been

Many threads about this.

His position is very clear:

He doesn't like the F35.

It's being produced no matter his opinion on it.

Either his state got the jobs or Florida. He chose his.

A bigger issue is thst Hillary's Campaign Chairman owns the main lobbying firm for the manufacturer of the F35 and indeed her husband has been paid hundreds of thousands of dollars by the manufacturer in speaking fees.

And of course as SOS Clinton signed off on deals that a gave Boeing billions in weapons sales to countries like Saudi Arabia... Another client of her campaign chairman's lobbying firm.

And don't forget that both Boeing and Saudi Arabia gave the Clinton Foundation millions.

But yeah. Bernie's the problem.

Lol.

[Thinkingabout]

10. He has voted for more funding more than one time, it appears he wants to

Continue the program.

[EdwardBernays]

12. He has no control

Over the outcome of the program. It's been signed off on by Nato, etc. It's not going anywhere.

On the OTHER hand hiring Boeing's lobbyist as your campaign manager, and accepting millions from them while presiding over a billion dollar deal they were trying to get passed. .. There's a lot that could have been done about that.

[Thinkingabout]

18. Lockheed Martin is one of Bernie's corporation connections, he does have control of

His votes, can't push that on anyone else.

[EdwardBernays]

21. He could not

Stop the F35. Stop pretending he could.

[Thinkingabout]

25. Are you saying he was forced to vote for more funding? Don't think this is the

Case. Seems odd he does not control how he votes, he could have chosen not to vote or vote against it.

[EdwardBernays]

31. Maybe try reading it again.

He could not stop it.

One more time.

He could not stop it.

Now you know what I'm saying.

[Thinkingabout]

37. He could have stopped his vote, voting for more funding is saying go

Ahead and spend more money on a failing program.

Saying he could not stop the program but how about Sanders put pressure on asking the executives of Lockheed Martin to testify before Congress about the cost over runs,we can't keep on giving a blank check on this program.

[Andy823]

32. He an stand up and complain

Can't he? He can use the fact he is now running for president to speak out agains the waste, can't he? You can make all the excuses you want', he is being a hypocrite on this.

[EdwardBernays]

35. He has

This is the problem with just jumping on this without doing some basic research.

He has openly and repeatedly criticized it as being wasteful and unnecessary...

Maybe try Google.

[Andy823]

54. It can't be both

He wants to cut military spending, but not this program because his state benefits. Gee, everyone else in congress could say the same thing about all the "other" military programs Bernie does want to cut.

If it's a waste of money, and unnecessary, then he should be including it in the wast he wants to cut, but he isn't, that is hypocrisy.

I did my research, and I say it's a case of hypocrisy. You can believe what you want.

Oh and as for the slam up above, no it does not suck to be me, does it suck to be you?

[EdwardBernays]

65. sigh

I'm wondering if you're just trolling??

He - and read this next part extremely carefully - can't cut it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_F-35_Lightning_II#Procurement_and_international_participation

You are basing your comments either on deliberate ignorance, or you're trolling.

Sanders does NOT control the F35 program and NOTHING he could do would stop it.

HE has PUBLICLY and REPEATEDLY spoken against it, but if he had voted differently his state would have lost thousands of jobs.

Would THAT be a better outcome?

You might think so; he didn't.


IF you REALLY want to look at who to blame, look at the lobbying firm for Lockhead Martin and Boeing, the Podesta Group. That's who helped grease the wheels to get it chosen in the first place. And ask why Hillary HIRED the OWNER of that lobbying firm to be her campaign chairman.

Then ask why Lockhead Martin and Boeing gave the Clinton "Foundation" over $5M and paid Bill $250,000 for a single speech.

Those are REAL questions.

Asking why a guy who couldn't stop the f35 didn't stop the F35, or why he didn't complain about it, when he did, or why he didn't let his state lose thousands of jobs over a program he couldn't stop - those are just artful smears.

[Andy823]

13. If you want to defend Bernie

On this issue, by trying to change the subject to Clinton, then go start your own thread. If Bernie is going to talk the talk, he damned well should awl the walk.

[vt_native]

34. I was really upset about Bernie's support for the F-35 basing in South Burlington

I agree, it's totally hypocritical. And inconsistent with his legacy of opposing wasteful defense spending and supporting affordable housing ( a lot of houses near the airport will no longer be "suitable for residential use" per federal noise standards, there's not much affordable housing in Chittenden County, Vermont). BTW, the F-35 will cause a net LOSS of jobs in the VTANG because the Guard services the F-16's they currently fly, but the F-35 will be serviced , per contract, by Lockheed Martin.

However, his candidacy is speaking to so many other important issues, I've decided to support him.

[Andy823]

17. Did you bother to read the second link?

He should be outraged at what happened, and should be speaking out about it. You can't claim to want to cut the wast in the military, and the support shit like this.

[cherokeeprogressive]

6. Just stumbled on this information, huh? What a revelation that must have been!

[Live and Learn]

36. It must be DU recycling week. The irony is that instead of cleaning the environment it pollutes it.

Just more mushrooms minus the cream sauce.

[cherokeeprogressive]

39. I figured it out this afternoon with my Wife's help.

They have one of those spinning wheels like Wheel of Fortune. On it is every failed meme.

Their game isn't called Wheel of Fortune though; it's called "Everything Old is New Again".

They spin the wheel. They flip a coin. The loser of the coin toss is the one who has to go out and post old shit.

[beam me up scottie]

41. And pretend to be "outraged" all over again.

It's actually quite comical.

[Live and Learn]

47. LOL Or Wheel of Fiction. nt

[cherokeeprogressive]

53. Wheel of Fiction. I like that.

I like it a lot.

[Live and Learn]

84. Here, a gift for you:

[cherokeeprogressive]

85. That is so perfect!

Gonna use this many times. Bookmarking it!

[Live and Learn]

86. Here is a place to use it:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511241515

Oops it got hidden. Truly a bad hide.

[cherokeeprogressive]

87. WOW that got hidden? They know we're onto 'em... nt

[Thinkingabout]

7. I have not seen any action in calling in the executives to determine the cost over runs on

This project. I think how much better the money would have benefited by putting this funding towards infrastructure repair and expansion. It would have employed lots of people and have helped many more people.

[Empowerer]

16. Nice try but if Bernie's ok with it, it must be fine because he can do no wrong

Last edited Sun Feb 14, 2016, 10:18 PM - Edit history (1)

And, anyway, Hillary ...

[Bonobo]

40. Is there a passive-aggressive here on DU that I didn't know about?

It's like some of you have had the same professor or something.

[frylock]

79. He's like a messiah.

[cantbeserious]

26. Predictably Spreading Establishment FUD

eom

[TTUBatfan2008]

50. I disagree with Bernie on this one.

No one is perfect. But he is more right than wrong on the issues. I feel that he has shown more integrity than 99% of the Congress over the last 25 years.

[merrily]

55. AFAIK, He did not support the plane. However, as long as it was going to be built anyway, he

wanted it built in Vermont. That's my understand, though I will freely disclose I have not researched it beyond reading stuff on DU.

[tammywammy]

57. As someone very familiar with the F-35, this is a stupid line of attack

First any vote on the annual NDAA by Sanders inherently "supports" the F-35 and all other military expenditures. Like most bills there was probably stuff in there he did like and stuff he didn't. Those planes are going to be built. Period.

This was merely deciding if some will be based in Vermont or elsewhere. There's already F-16s at the Burlington airport, so this is keeping those folks employees once the F-35 is stationed there.

Also, Sanders isn't even on the Armed Services Committee or any of their subcommittees. The idea that he could effect any change on the program is ludicrous. To think Sanders is in the pocket of Lockheed Martin, Boeing, Raytheon, etc is ridiculous.

[Andy823]

61. Maybe you didn't read the link

http://readersupportednews.org/opinion2/277-75/24583-bernie-sanders-doubles-down-on-f-35-support-days-after-runway-explosion

If you read it you will see where he is not going to "INCLUDE" cutting this program in his plan to cut military spending if elected president. That is the problem. 1.5 trillion dollars so far of wasted taxpayer dollars, yet he isn't going to cut it. That's wrong no matter how you want to look at it.

[tammywammy]

62. Of course he's not going to cut it

Even if he said today he'd cut it, it wouldn't happen because the F-35 is to fit a very specific role in the military and there's nothing else that can do what that plane does. Even if cut, which again won't happen, what will the Air Force, Marines and Navy do? They still need to replace their aging aircraft. The Marines declared Initial Operating Capability last year and the Air Force will do so this year. The F-35 is here to stay.

There are always issues and bugs with brand new aircraft (or technology in general), people that hated the F-22 freaking love it now and wish there were more.

I don't need to read the link, I'm already very well informed about the program.

[Admiral Loinpresser]

64. Thx for cutting thru the latest smear. n/t

[cosmicone]

72. So Sanders' vote to keep the boondoggle alive was ok

because the POTUS and military would have kept it going anyway, right? RIGHT?

Then:

a) Why didn't he vote against it and remain true to his principles knowing that the vote would mean nothing?
b) Why isn't the same slack cut to Hillary about the IWR? No matter how she had voted, the Iraq war would have happened anyway.

Double standards and hypocrisy are the guiding principles of certain campaigns.

[tammywammy]

73. I don't hold the Iraq vote against Hillary.

It's not like there's a stand alone bill funding the F-35, it's wrapped in the NDAA. There could be items in each military funding bill he agrees with more than he disagrees F-35.

Considering Sanders holds no position on any of the Armed Services committees, he really couldn't push for any changes to F-35, no matter how much he disagrees with it.

[mak3cats]

69. Oh, this meme again? Yawn... (eom)

[speaktruthtopower]

71. We're borrowing money..

from China to build this plane, which we don't need to address any likely threat in the future.

[Blue_Tires]

75. It's still the right move

eventually the teething issues will get ironed out, and it will perform as expected...

[Koinos]

76. A wasteful mistake from the very beginning.

Poor design. Maybe the "F45" (or whatever they call it) will be better.

The 1.5 trillion could have been spent better elsewhere.

Good for Vermont, but bad for everyone else in the country.

When will Sanders advocate really cutting the defense budget?

[frylock]

77. Are these the same F-35s that Hillary wants to sell to Israel, or different F-35s?

[HassleCat]

82. Different

The Bernie F-35s will all fail to fly, be too expensive, etc. Once we get the bugs worked out, at taxpayers expense, THEN we can sell them to Israel. So, yes, they will be different F-35s.

[INdemo]

80. Man you Hillary supporters just dont give up do?

How many wasteful military projects did Hillary vote for..And for Hillary as SOS how many weapons deals did she approve and push through and later received millions in donations to the Clinton foundation as the favor was returned.


Clinton Foundation Donors Got Weapons Deals From Hillary Clinton's State Department

http://www.ibtimes.com/clinton-foundation-donors-got-weapons-deals-hillary-clintons-state-department-1934187

Talking about weapons deals with Saudi's
These were not the only relationships bridging leaders of the two nations. In the years before Hillary Clinton became secretary of state, the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia contributed at least $10 million to the Clinton Foundation, the philanthropic enterprise she has overseen with her husband, former president Bill Clinton. Just two months before the deal was finalized, Boeing -- the defense contractor that manufactures one of the fighter jets the Saudis were especially keen to acquire, the F-15 -- contributed $900,000 to the Clinton Foundation, according to a company press release.

The Saudi deal was one of dozens of arms sales approved by Hillary Clinton’s State Department that placed weapons in the hands of governments that had also donated money to the Clinton family philanthropic empire, an International Business Times investigation has found.

[HassleCat]

81. I cannot vote for Sanders.

I refuse to vote for any candidate who votes in favor of a wasteful defense project just to keep jobs in his state. It is exactly the same as collecting huge speaking fees from neo-con think tanks. It is exactly the same as raking in corporate money through a "foundation" or other false front organization. A vote for Sanders is a vote for the war machine, for corruption, for quid pro quo, for big money, for payoffs and legalized bribery, because he is JUST ANOTHER POLITICIAN. He is exactly the same as those other politicians who rake in thousands of times as much money as he does. The difference in scale means nothing. If you get bit my a mosquito, it's the same as being bit by a cobra, just another poisonous bite. Never mind that one just itches a little, while the other kills you. Don't be deceived. There is no difference. NO DIFFERENCE. There, I just proved it by typing it in capital letters. So don't vote for Sanders. Vote for somebody who never voted for or against anything. That's what I'm going to do.