"Memo to candidate Hillary Clinton: I could have been a Monica Lewinsky"

[Cheese Sandwich]

Young women do understand the significance of the former secretary of state’s candidacy – but it’s the demonization of a guileless intern that has one writer reflecting on the Democrat’s complacency when misogyny hit close to home

As Lewinsky recounted in her TED talk about public shaming last year, public opinion about her was less ambiguous than opinions about the nature of the act that she’d performed: “I was branded ... a tramp, tart, slut, whore, bimbo, and, of course, that woman.”

Hillary Clinton did not use that kind of language when she made one of her few recorded remarks about the situation. Instead, she called Lewinsky “a narcissistic loony tune”.

Asked last year to elucidate on her “loony tunes” remark, Hillary Clinton refused: “I am not going to comment on what I did or did not say back in the late 90s,” she said to Diane Sawyer. And sure, that’s her prerogative, to say nothing. But I think it’s a bad choice. What happened in the 90s happened: it’s a crucial part of the narrative of the Clinton dynasty that has driven Hillary Clinton forward. Hence, it’s my prerogative to feel ambivalent about supporting a candidate who positions herself as a feminist but who has been yielding in her support of a partner who has been a serial ill-user of women – and who, lest we forget, paid $850,000 to settle a sexual harassment lawsuit out of court.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/feb/21/bill-clinton-monica-lewinsky-hillary-president

[Bleacher Creature]

1. Elisabeth Kübler-Ross was really on to something!

I'm glad step one has officially begun.

[livetohike]

4. Good one!

👍 however, it may take yeas to work through the stages - maybe eight years 😊.

[Cal33]

85. I think anyone with a sense of decency would leave out this topic altogether. I am

a Sanders supporter, but what happened between Bill and Monica in the late 1990s
has nothing to do with politics whatsoever. It should be left out.

[Politicalboi]

107. This is a serious election

And yes it does matter how HilLIARy treated women in the 90's. She wants to take credit and use her time as FLOTUS as some kind of experience, then it's fair game. She let her husband walk all over her, but she hung on for POWER. And now she feels it's her turn. We can't just play nice with a rattle snake. EVERYTHING should be up for grabs. If we don't use it on her, the GOP most certainly will.

[dchill]

128. You can't seriously believe...

that it was just between Bill and Hillary. If they want it private, then the obvious option is to go back to private life. I think that would be best for all concerned - meaning all of us.

[Cal33]

144. For years the Republicans were trying their best to drag up something about

Bill Clinton with which they could find cause to have him impeached. They didn't. Then Banker
Mellon of PA thought of paying private investigators out of his own pocket, and sent them to
Arkansas and dig up dirt of any kind on him. The investigators came across a few women who
claimed to have had sexual relations with Bill, when he was Governor of Arkansas.

Extra-marital sex is not a crime. But the Republicans made use of deceit and tried to obtain
evidence illegally. They succeeded in having a friend of Monica, Linda Tripp, to secretly use
a wire while talking with Monica about her intimate physical details with Bill Clinton. [This
meeting between Monica and Linda took place in Maryland, and in Maryland it is a crime to
secretly tape someone without that person's consent]. The rest is history. Tripp was working
for the federal government. After she lost her job, none of the Corporate Power people would
consider giving Linda a job -- after all she had done for them!! This is so typical of Corporate
Power people. Bush, Jr. cut down on spending for injured veterans. Correct? And it was his
war to begin with. That's gratitude for you! Republicans try to take everything, and give you
nothing in return.

What the GOP wouldn't do to impeach any president who isn't one of their own! They have
tried to impeach Obama, too. I'll bet they are still trying. And they will do the same to any
and every other president who isn't a Republican.

As for extra-marital sex, Alfred Kinsey's "Sexual Behavior in the Human Male" said that
around 60% of males admitted to having had it, and his later "Sexual Behavior in the Human
Female" reported that some 40% of women admitted to it. Many of our earlier presidents
were known to have done the same thing. It's just that the news media avoided discussing
such a topic during those earlier times. They had more respect for privacy then.

I think it was the Republicans who brought out this topic right into the open, when they
were trying to find something to impeach Clinton with. Even then, they did not succeed.
They could only accuse him of having lied about sex under oath. And he was found
"Not Guilty."

If you think Bill should have been made to pay for it somehow, he already has. Just think
of that huge and prolonged trial, and all of it reported on TV. And what about all the
other presidents right up to Jefferson, who had fathered several illegitimate children with
his female slaves?

I think we Americans do have some kind of "official" sexual hang-ups. Europeans wonder
how come we are so hung up about the sexual lives of our presidents. Has our sexual
maturity been arrested at stage of adolescents, who are wondering about the sexual lives
of their parents?

[noretreatnosurrender]

168. Decency Evidently Is Looked Down Upon Here

I have the same view, however, we've been lectured by many on this forum that the GOP will throw worse at Bernie and that we need to toughen up. I guess this thread is just giving the Hillary supporters their chance to toughen up or some such nonsense.

[Cheese Sandwich]

5. LOL Let's riot

[Starry Messenger]

42. Snort.

[Uncle Joe]

2. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, Cheese Sandwich.

[Chasstev365]

3. Oh Snap!

[geek tragedy]

6. the media treated Lewinsky unfairly.

however, expecting charitable words from a wife towards a mistress is a bit unrealistic

[Cheese Sandwich]

7. Hillary wasn't the only one excusing his behavior

It was a lot of people.

[geek tragedy]

8. I doubt Hillary was excusing his behavior behind closed doors.

their fights in the west wing were pretty legendary when he was president

but they're a political couple and they're not going to air their laundry in public

[CTyankee]

25. I didn't excuse his behavior but I didn't think he should have been impeached over it...

[Cheese Sandwich]

27. The president should not be impeached for having sex with his interns?

[BlueCaliDem]

62. Well, that's what Republicans believe. Not Democrats. eom

[cali]

70. Of course not

[Cheese Sandwich]

72. What should happen? White House orgies?

If President Obama had been caught doing something like that he'd have been forced to resign.

[randome]

105. Lewinsky was an adult, not some helpless child.

And she had to be coaxed into filing a complaint. And then there was the whole Ken Starr crap. If you believe that only 'proper' sex is allowable in the White House, you don't know human nature very well.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]The truth doesn’t always set you free.
Sometimes it builds a bigger cage around the one you’re already in.[/center][/font][hr]

[Cheese Sandwich]

131. It's not OK for the president of the USA to have sex with his interns

Liberals who defend it show their true colors.

[okasha]

183. So FDR should have been impeached?

What about JFK, who brought his extra-marital affairs right into the White House? Should Bobby have been removed as AG for his adultery? Should Teddy have ever been elected in the shadow of Chappaquidick? What about his cheating and emotional abuse of his wife Joan? Should he have been kicked out of the Senate?

Truman seems to have been a faithful husband, and of course Jimmy Carter. There hasn't been even a rumor about Obama. All the other Presidents from FDR forward are questionable at best.


Do you think the majority of American Presidents should have been impeached for Extra-marital affairs, or just the one whose "uppity" wife is very likely to be our next President?

[Cheese Sandwich]

184. The president shouldn't be having sex with his young interns.

Is that a hard concept to get?

People looked the other way back then, in the 1990s, but nobody is going to look the other way today.

Our society has changed for the better. There is more awareness now about issues of sexual harassment, assault, rape, and inappropriate relationships by people in positions of trust and authority.

We've been through the Catholic Church scandal. We have challenged rape culture at colleges and in the military. Sexual harassment in the workplace is taken much more seriously these days.

It's a different country today than when the Clintons occupied the White House. Times have changed. And we are never going back.

President Obama has made the country proud. We owe him and his family a lot of respect for that.

He never could have gotten away with anything like what Bill Clinton did. If Obama had sex with a young intern and lied about it on TV I'm sure he would have been removed from office. Part of that is white privilege, and part of that is that times have changed.

[okasha]

188. So times have changed,

but you still want to drag the affair up now and use it to disempower not only Hillary Clinton but Monica Lewinsky herself (practically a child.&quot There is abiding misogyny under your "defense" of Monica.

If anyone abused Monica, it was Linda Tripp. She was set up, right along with Bill. And they both, stupidly, walked into the trap.

[Cheese Sandwich]

189. You're twisting yourself into pretzels to defend Clinton.

I recognize it because I used to do it too. Gave it up though.

He doesn't deserve that kind of loyalty. You're blaming everybody in the world except the man who is to blame, which would be the man in charge.

[okasha]

192. Wrong on all counts.

Bill was guilty of sheer stupidity, right along with betraying his wife"s and daughter's trust.

Monica, also stupidly, never seems to have asked herself why Linda Tripp was so enthusiastic about an affair between the two.

Yet denying Monica agency is sexist as all hell. At 22. a woman can be trusted with

one or more children,
a bank account.
a car,
a gun,
a ballot,

but not her own body?

Go peddle that at Freeperville.

[Cheese Sandwich]

194. She made her own choice but SHE DID NOT DO ANYTHING WRONG.

I was a 22 year old Clinton intern. At the same time as Monica Lewinski.

If he'd have asked me to give him a blowjob I'd probably have done it.

Because young people can be kind of star struck in the presence of very powerful people.

I'm not denying her agency.

But yes there's a problem when bosses have sex with their interns because they are at different levels of power.

She chose to do that and that's her choice. She did not do anything wrong. The blame lies with the people who held power and were charged with the public trust.

[melman]

214. If you were there

how come you don't know how to spell Lewinsky? Seems like something someone would know if they were that close to the whole thing.

[Cheese Sandwich]

216. I wasn't literally there.

Simply meant I was involved with Clinton politics and defended the president.

[melman]

220. No

What you said was, "I was a 22 year old Clinton intern. At the same time as Monica Lewinski.

If he'd have asked me to give him a blowjob I'd probably have done it."

That suggests you were at the White House.

[Cheese Sandwich]

222. That's true but I didn't know her

[treestar]

237. You were not there

and it's irrelevant anyway.

[treestar]

236. Which I don't believe for a minute

If you're going to make something up, make it at least believably realistic.

[treestar]

235. Yes she did. She knew he was married.

You are that easily swayed? That's ridiculous. The media would jump on a POTUS faster than an ordinary boss, so they are the ones more dangerous. Still, I'd quit the job first and then accuse the boss. You're claiming you would let yourself be abused is being projected onto Monica.

[CTyankee]

148. No, but the president should be excoriated for his behavior. It was all on him, to be sure.

Impeachment is written into the Constitution as High crimes and misdemenors" and the repubs were just itching to get rid of him. It was a cynical ploy. They didn't give a rat's ass about Lewinsky. They just wanted to impeach him for their own political aims. This shouldn't be turned into a political event.

Don't get me wrong: what happened to Lewinsky was his and only his fault. He was the most powerful man in the world and he could have turned her away. He kenw the risks but kept up anyway. I don't blame her for being foolish and headstrong; I blame him for not sending her away and telling his staff that she was not to come into his office again, period.

[melman]

213. Of course not

I am not a Hillary supporter but no way am I going to change my opinion on the impeachment.

It was bullshit. End of story.

[JustAnotherGen]

59. Thank you

And I'm wondering what the life experience is of the author of the opinion piece is. The longer we stay single and delay marriage the more man/woman experience we get. I think she hasn't seen it all yet forewarned that many successful ambitious women have cubby holes for their lives.

Clinton is allowed to have a cubby hole for her marriage and that life experience.

She's also allowed to think whatever she wants about Lewinsky.

[loyalsister]

71. she knew he had a pattern of using his power to exploit women

Last edited Sun Feb 21, 2016, 02:03 PM - Edit history (1)

and blamed the victim every time he got caught. She defended the misogyny that still persists. I wonder where we would be if she had had the guts to say publicly, "I don't care if he's POTUS he was dead wrong and has left a trail of victim."

Until she is honest about how she has trashed and exploited women for political gain (mass incarceration and welfare reform destroyed the lives of many women), there is no reason to believe she has changed. Particularly when she is willing to compromise on abortion.

[Cheese Sandwich]

86. thank you. Completely agree.

[vdogg]

156. Monica Lewinsky is a lot of things.

But she is NOT a victim.

[treestar]

238. I doubt it - he's an attractive man

and we're told women find power attractive. Right wing bullshit. He did not need to abuse any power - plenty of willing women and Monica was one of them.

[dsc]

9. the idea that Lewinski was trashed by Hillary is ridiculous

She told one friend, who had promised to keep it secret and kept that promise. The only reason we know what was said is that the woman she said it to died and her papers became public.

[JTFrog]

10. This is definitely a sign of desperation.

When Monica is all you got left to talk about.... I think even the GOP quit giving a fuck about that shit long ago.

[Cheese Sandwich]

12. Times have changed. Today a president could never get away with having sex with interns

I don't think we want to go back to those days. Our country has truly changed.

President Obama and his family have brought more dignity and respect to the White House and earned the respect of the whole world.

He never could have gotten away with half the stuff Bill did. Thank goodness our country has changed and we're never going back.

[JTFrog]

16. Go back to those days?

What the fuck are you talking about?

[Cheese Sandwich]

65. Now a Clinton supporter is saying it's OK for the president to have sex with his interns

I don't want the country to go back to that

[SidDithers]

33. Huge desperation...

Pulling out Lewinsky is hillarious at this point.

Sid

[Onlooker]

11. Heaven forbid! Bill Clinton had consensual sex with another woman. Let's punish Hillary n/t

What kind of reactionary garbage is this post? I though the millennials were a little bit more modern, but now it sounds like some of them are evangelical. Yes, what Bill did was wrong. Yes, Hillary wanted to save her marriage and chose to defend her husband. Yeah, Hillary acted like a pretty normal human being.

[Cheese Sandwich]

14. The president of the US should not have sex with a 22 year old intern

There's too much unequal power. It's just wrong.

Clinton liberals are still defending it because it was "consensual" though.

You know damn well President Obama NEVER could have gotten away with something like that.

[JTFrog]

17. Get away with?

For fuck's sake the guy was raked over the coals for years. And apparently still is. Even by so-called Democrats? They made him testify and go through circus hoops. How is that getting away with anything? What exactly do you think should have happened?

[Cheese Sandwich]

19. Democrats rallied to defend the president. They saved his ass

President Obama could NEVER have gotten away with something like that. Nor should any president be able to. It's a huge abuse of power.

[JTFrog]

20. What do you think should have happened? n/t

[Cheese Sandwich]

37. The president should keep his hands off the interns

And we should no longer defend such things or look the other way.

[JTFrog]

38. What do you think should have happened?

You keep saying he got away with something. What do you think should have happened.

Why won't you answer that simple question?

[Cheese Sandwich]

40. We shouldn't have defended him

I was there too, a huge Clinton loyalist at the time.

We all dismissed it as a personal issue. I'm ashamed of my own words and actions at the time. It was wrong.

As soon as we found out the president had sex with a 22 year old intern we should have stopped defending it. It's a huge abuse of power and position.

[JTFrog]

43. What do you think should have happened?

You keep telling me what we did and how he got away with something. But what do you think should have happened to make it so he didn't "get away" with this?

Do you think he should have been impeached? Are you going to come right out and say it?

[Cheese Sandwich]

46. What would happen if president Obama got caught having sex with an intern?

WHY the double standard?

[JTFrog]

47. Yea, I'm done here. You are just gonna weasle around this.

You should really self-delete this OP.

[treestar]

58. Deflection

what do you think should have happened?

President Obama would have to pay for that at 10 times the rate Clinton did.

[Cheese Sandwich]

73. "Obama would have to pay for that at 10 times the rate Clinton did."

We agree on that. Obama would have been in a world of hurt.

But we'll never have to worry about that. Because the Obama family has earned the respect of the whole world. They bring pride to the whole country. The first black family in the white house has earned the respect of the whole country and the whole world.

And honestly I'm grateful for that.

[SidDithers]

68. Why won't you answer the simple question? "What do you think should have happened?"...nt

Sid

[randome]

108. Call the Sex Police!

[hr][font color="blue"][center]The truth doesn’t always set you free.
Sometimes it builds a bigger cage around the one you’re already in.[/center][/font][hr]

[libdem4life]

125. He should have done what millions are now doing...owned up and started counseling on why it's

wrong to screw around on your wife for decades, then in the White House, and Monica wasn't the only one...he used official officers for his pimps...the other women were threatened.

He's a sex addict...a sex addict...and there is a 12-Step Group for that. It is a personality illness/dysfunction and hurts many people. And he's still there.

I can see it all now. Hello, My name is William Clinton and I am a sex addict. Instead, he's lying and weaseling and primping and hauling in cash.

What should he do now? Get out of the limelight. And god help us if he is the First Man. I dare not write any longer.

[1939]

129. He should have resigned

Al Gore would have become president with less than two years left in the term.

Al Gore would have been elected in a landslide in 2000 because he healed the country from the scandal.

Al Gore would have been reelected again in 2004.

We would have had almost ten years of President Gore.

[The_Counsel]

233. Yeah, I Don't Get That Either....

For fuck's sake the guy was raked over the coals for years. And apparently still is.

+ - - - - - + - - - - - + - - - - - + - - - - - + - - - - - +

And what's worse, his wife--the one that was cheated on--got raked over the coals for this act as well. And apparently still is.

[treestar]

26. Really?

So we women are never old enough to make the choice?

LOL, most men inform us we like older men with power. That's our preference. Now we're to think it's wrong because it is politically expedient? Which it is not. It is wrong to bring this up in relation to Hillary.

[Cheese Sandwich]

198. Actually I think the people to blame is Bill Clinton and anyone who defended him

I even defended him at the time am ashamed of it.

Monica Lewinski, she made her own choice, but she didn't do anything wrong. She can't be faulted. But if you look through the thread you will find beaucoup Clinton liberals blaming and shaming her, some saying she had the whole thing schemed out.

[treestar]

207. She is just as much to blame as he

She is an adulterer too. Geez.

[Cheese Sandwich]

218. She didn't do anything wrong though.

People are allowed to have sex with whoever they want. It's a free country.

But if the president does it then it's a huge scandal. It can actually be a national security risk.

I don't know if Bill was like a sex addict or what but the responsibility is on the president to control himself.

The interns he might have sex with are not to blame.

[SwampG8r]

39. An employer had sex with a subordinate employee

There is a name for that kind of workplace behaviour.

[randome]

110. Yeah. It's called sex.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]The truth doesn’t always set you free.
Sometimes it builds a bigger cage around the one you’re already in.[/center][/font][hr]

[libdem4life]

127. No, it's predatory sex. It's fueled first by power. It isn't the sex...it's the misuse of power.

The concept is Sexual Harrassment.

[Fairgo]

161. That's the essence of this issue

This isn't about consensual sex. It's about
The abuse of power. Lady Macbeth cannot wash the stains away as she was
Complicit in the abuse. She need not
Clarify her words. They are crystal clear and Voluminous...

[fun n serious]

172. If I were Monica, I would have burned the dress. :) nt

[66 dmhlt]

13. OMG! It's like this is a Freeperville post!

[BlueCaliDem]

66. + 1000

[Adrahil]

15. What's next? A picture of the blue dress? Disgraceful! NT

[Cheese Sandwich]

18. Actually it's more disgraceful to defend the POTUS having sex with 22 year old interns

[treestar]

24. 22 year olds are over the age of consent

but this has nothing to do with Hillary being POTUS today.

[Cheese Sandwich]

95. The president shouldn't have sex with 20 year old interns

I know you think it's OK because you said so on post #57.

Seriously when you think that's OK I can't help you.

Do marriage vows count for nothing?

It's a national security risk. The president could be blackmailed over a secret sex affair.

It cost the nation deeply. It opened up the president to attacks from Republicans as well and any progressive agenda was derailed.

Who even knows what Clinton compromised away to protect himself during impeachment.

[treestar]

210. It was wrong because he was married

not because of her age - she was a grown up who sought the sex.

[Cheese Sandwich]

221. It makes a political difference though

The imagery is much worse because it appears like an older powerful man is taking advantage of a starstruck young lady who is an intern at his office.

Even though legally a 20 year old is just as much an adult as a 70 year old, that's only in the eyes of the law. In people's own minds we can each judge for yourself whether any relationship is inappropriate based on a number of factors that for some people can include age, employment, whether it is at work or at home, whether it is the president since maybe some unique rules apply for the president, the power relationship between the people.

It's bad optics.

[treestar]

228. Still not Hillary's fault.

[The_Counsel]

234. You're Right. S/He shouldn't. But Not for the Reasons You Think.

It cost the nation deeply. It opened up the president to attacks from Republicans as well and any progressive agenda was derailed.

+ - - - - - + - - - - - + - - - - - + - - - - - + - - - - - +

Yes, because Congressional Republicans wouldn't have attempted to derail Clinton's agenda otherwise.

Did we forget that the whole Lewinsky mess was uncovered because they were trying to find something, ANYthing, to thwart Clinton?

Bill Clinton's hands weren't the only dirty ones in this...

[zappaman]

21. Awwww

[treestar]

22. how does the Bernie campaign benefit from this?

Making Monica into the big victim? She was not. Calling her a narcissistic looney tune, lol, is not going to bother most people. And bringing back the 90s? And it was Bill's doing, so we are throwing in here the misogyny of making a woman responsible for what her husband did. Which is reprehensible.

[Cheese Sandwich]

30. She was not the victim? Really? Bill was the victim and Monica is a huge what? What has she?

[treestar]

34. Monica was 22 and wanted to mess around with Bill Clinton

He should not have allowed it, but there it is.

It is misogyny to use it against Hillary. And it's 20 year old news.

[Cheese Sandwich]

36. Yeah it's called abuse of power. The most powerful man in the world took advantage of

his power to have sex with a much younger woman, almost a child.

And the country suffered a huge loss and dangers as a result.

[treestar]

41. Which has nothing to do with Hillary

and a 22 year old is not a child! When do we get to be adults who get to chose who to have sex with?

He should not have done it but it was not an abuse or advantage taking of her! She was old enough to decide! Geez.

[Cheese Sandwich]

45. Bill Clinton is a top Clinton adviser and surrogate

If Cornell West's behavior attaches to Bernie Sanders,

you better believe Bill Clinton's behavior attaches to Hillary Clinton.

[treestar]

48. True liberals would not care about that personal stuff

no matter who it is.

[Cheese Sandwich]

50. It's not personal. It's an abuse of power and authority for the president to fondle the interns.

Stop making excuses for that.

[treestar]

51. I think it was bad judgment but not an "abuse of authority"

there is some point where women are considered adult agents and can decide for themselves what they want to do.

And who is "making excuses?" Both Bill and Monica are stupid for what they did.

[Cheese Sandwich]

53. "Both Bill and Monica are stupid for what they did."

The blame lies with the one in a position of power and authority.

[treestar]

54. so wait

we never get to decide to have sex with any man of power and authority?

LOL, hope there is never a single president. He or her could not get involved at all without it being a misuse of authority!

[Cheese Sandwich]

55. Do you think the president of the US should be allowed to have sex with his interns ?

Monica did not do anything wrong.

The blame rests on Bill Clinton and people who defended it.

[treestar]

57. If he wants to and they want to.

This is a free country.

LOL, Monica is an adult and as wrong as Bill. That's ridiculous. Adultery is wrong, you don't get to pretend as an adult that you were not responsible for the choice.

[Cheese Sandwich]

61. You guys should campaign on that

[treestar]

90. it's not a relevant issue to this campaign

[Cheese Sandwich]

75. "Monica is an adult and as wrong as Bill" - Disgusting

The President of the US and a 22 year old intern are wholly unequal in power.

Pretending that they are both equally responsible amounts to victim blaming

[treestar]

91. making out Monica, party to adultery as victim

merely because she is younger than he is - that is reprehensible. She is no victim.

[Cheese Sandwich]

93. America was the victim.

It's not only because she was younger. It's the vastly unequal power relationship that I find most concerning.

Like a corporate CEO that hires interns to have sex with, Bill Clinton was the president and decided to have sex with his intern.

And America paid the price.

[treestar]

114. Don't see the price

the economy was good back then. It's personal stuff with no political significance to non-Republicans.

[fun n serious]

225. No she isn't. Se saved the dress and gave it to Janet Reno IIRC.. nt

[speaktruthtopower]

104. They were getting ready to smear her big time

before they learned about the dress, which would have been an abuse.

[treestar]

115. keeping the dress shows she was no victim

the whole thing was stupid. And is no use against Hillary.

[Cheese Sandwich]

186. As if it's any of your business what people do with their dresses.

Disgusting.

Trying to paint the Clintons as the victims and still shaming the reputation of their 22 year old intern, 20 years later.

She's been through enough dude. Pick on someone powerful for a change. Punch up. Not down. It's not classy.

[treestar]

208. hello Monica and Bill are guilty and Hillary is not

you've got to be kidding me. Blaming Hillary and making Monica the victim.

[Cheese Sandwich]

219. America is the victim of a president who couldn't keep his hands off the interns

Don't be surprised if more accusers come out.

[rusty fender]

126. Bullshit!

If Monica had been a man, you better believe "liberals" would have given a damn. Back then the majority of Dems would have been calling for Bill's resignation.

[treestar]

209. If Monica had been a man?

WTF are you talking about? There is no hint whatsoever Bill is gay. If so, I would still say the exact same thing- it is personal stuff.

[rusty fender]

224. You know what I mean

You know it and I know it that if Bill had been involved with a male intern, the Dem party and the American people would have thrown him under the bus.

By the way, although you are a DU legend in your own mind, you do not get to set the standard for what a real liberal is.

[treestar]

226. Nobody will ever know

Until it happens. I get to have an opinion of what is liberal just like anyone else.

[betsuni]

23. Hmmm. Cheesy.

[Cheese Sandwich]

80. That was amazing

thank you

[speaktruthtopower]

28. She's lucky

that Donald Trump isn't the perfect family values candidate.

Seriously, it is hard to judge whether to be sympathetic to what she had to put up with from Bill or cast her as an enabler. Insiders who know her seem to be sympathetic.

[loyalsister]

94. She didn't "have to put up with it"

She very deliberately defended him by blaming the victim. Thus, enabling him to continue the pattern she knew existed long before he was elected president. Ms. "not Tammy Wynette" actually was. Whether she has been convinced by him that she was better off staying with him to further her goals, or made the decision herself she enabled misogyny. She participated when she trashed his victims.

[Cheese Sandwich]

133. You hit the nail on the head

thank you

[laundry_queen]

151. +1 nt

[jwirr]

190. I wonder how Hillary feels about sexual abuse in the work

place today? That is a woman's issue that still effects many women. She did blame the victims. How about the other victims of workplace abuse?

[giftedgirl77]

29. Holy shit, I guess when you have nothing left you pull out the blue dress.

[Cheese Sandwich]

79. I remember when Barbara Walters grilled Monica on TV about that

[giftedgirl77]

82. I honestly could give a shit less that she gave him a blow job.

I was a teenager when that dumbshit went down & had no interest then & have none now in this stupid ass debacle. Hell neither one of my grandmother's gave a shit about it & both we're very catholic. One born in Sicily & the other Puerto Rico both immigrants.

The only person that I ever heard say one negative thing about it was my dad & he was a diehard republican.

This is just dumb & Monica wasn't exactly an unwilling participant.

[Cheese Sandwich]

84. It's not OK for the president to have sex with his 20 year old interns.

If you think that's ok, I'm not following.

[giftedgirl77]

88. Well we both know that it could be perceived as possible

sexual harassment if there was any quid pro quo involved. But for that to have happened she would have had to perceive some sort of hostile work place & felt that he was intimidating her based on his position.

None of that happened, it was just some good old fashioned oral sex. Just because you don't like it doesn't make it wrong or illegal. Not to mention that it has nothing to do with HRC. My 20s were awesome & filled with some very good times with men quite a bit older than me. It's ok, we can make decisions.

[Cheese Sandwich]

89. It cost the country a lot.

We lost years that could have been spent fighting on more serious issues.

Frankly if the president cheats on their spouse and covers it up, that's a national security risk because it opens up all sorts of possibility for blackmail.

In some cases known adulterers can lose their government security clearance or it can affect your ability to get a security clearance. Obviously with someone as powerful as potus this is a huge issue.

[KingFlorez]

31. Hail Mary

[Cheese Sandwich]

32. Fucking Clinton heads still defending presidential head. Fuck the 90s

[SidDithers]

35. Nailed it...nt

Sid

[Starry Messenger]

52. For real.

[NCTraveler]

44. I won't talk bad about either of the victims in this situation. Nt

[Cheese Sandwich]

49. The whole country was the victim as we lost years making excuses for the presidential BJ

[HassleCat]

56. Harsh, but correct

OK, Clinton should not have blurted out her amateur psychiatric evaluation of Lewinski, but she has a point. Lewinski is one of those people who seeks attention, and uses various means to get it. Some of what she did, saving the infamous blue dress, for example, indicates she had something in mind all along. I don't think Lewinski was treated unfairly, not at all. I know some people who knew her in college, and she did some fairly nasty things to people she called her friends. She has turned her misfortune into good fortune by getting on the lecture circuit and telling people how it feels to be hounded, discredited, attacked, etc. I guess you could argue she is pursuing the only career open to her, but my sources tell me that was the career she had in mind long before meeting Bill Clinton. She is certainly very good at making herself appear to be a victim of those who tell the truth about her. If you call her a professional victim, she turns that around and calls you an abuser.

[Cheese Sandwich]

60. Holy crap. Your whole post is disgusting and offensive.

OK, Clinton should not have blurted out her amateur psychiatric evaluation of Lewinski, but she has a point.

Defending Hillary's brain dead attack on a vulnerable young woman who Bill took advantage of.

Lewinski is one of those people who seeks attention, and uses various means to get it.

This comment is completely fucking repulsive. She was a young intern for the president of the US. He was in a position of ultimate power and maturity. What the fuck is up with liberals who defend presidential blowjobs and blame the interns?

Some of what she did, saving the infamous blue dress, for example, indicates she had something in mind all along.

OK so now she's a scheming temptress just plotting to get famous? What crap. I haven't heard that line in 20 years. Now I remember why the Clinton's make me sick.

I know some people who knew her in college, and she did some fairly nasty things to people she called her friends.

WTF Personal attacks on her reputation from college? Do Clinton defenders have no shame?

She has turned her misfortune into good fortune by getting on the lecture circuit

So now you want to deny her a chance to make a living. Ruin her life a little more while you're destroying her reputation.

my sources tell me that was the career she had in mind long before meeting Bill Clinton. She is certainly very good at making herself appear to be a victim of those who tell the truth about her.

Holy shit. Never though I'd see such victim shaming on DU.

[HassleCat]

96. Victim shaming requires a victim

I believe Monica Lewinski is not a victim. I believe she poses as a victim. I believe she chose and followed a specific course of action. When that did nt go well for her, she portrayed herself as a victim. I formed my opinion by talking with people who knew her personally.

[Cheese Sandwich]

97. Do you think it's OK for the president to have sex with young interns?

I don't.

[HassleCat]

98. Of course not

Bill Clinton's behavior was reprehensible. He did take advantage of his powerful position to have sex with women, so Lewinski and Paula Jones and probably others are victims to an extent. I just don't think it's a really big deal that Hillary Clinton wouls react the way she did. It may be an example of victim shaming, since it attributes mental illness. The same goes for some of the comments that Lewinski was an evil slut, scheming to entrap poor, innocent Bill, etc. The problem is, there is a certain amount of truth to that portrayal, even if the intent was to make the victim appear to be the predator. It seems to me they both pursued the same thing, as well as each other. I feel no sympathy for Bill Clinton, and some for Monica Lewinski, but not that much.

[treestar]

211. are you Monica?

Hilarious - you ought to read up about her. You are the only one on the planet making her into a meek little victim.

[Cheese Sandwich]

223. Not done dragging her reputation through the mud yet huh?

Determined to shame her for the rest of her natural life?

Why not put the blame where it belongs which is on the president and the people who defended him.

[treestar]

227. She's the adulterer

So why is it dragging her name through mud? It's not. She admitted it all. Her choice of course.

[Cheese Sandwich]

232. Dayum. That just sounds so horrible to my ears.

[eilen]

63. That happened so long ago

I feel it did inform us as to Bill Clinton's character.

Monica L. -- She was young and making bad decisions, I rarely meet a 22 year old that has not.
Hillary was embarrassed and angry.

Her decision to remain with her husband are really between the two of them.

I would not trust Bill Clinton ever again though and he has a pattern of behavior well before this incident to cause me to believe that he would not change/has not changed.

But Bill is not running for president again, his wife is.

She has her own truthiness issues.

[Metric System]

64. Well, now I know Hillary is winning.

[Dems to Win]

67. I WAS Paula Jones

My boss's boss's boss's boss made a crude pass at me when I was a young professional woman. I told him to go to hell, as Jones did.

I NEVER defended Bill Clinton. I reluctantly concluded that his actions did not rise to HIGH crimes and misdemeanors needed to convict and impeach, but that was it. I would have preferred Bill to have resigned and let Al Gore lead the country, rather than spend 2 years watching the Democrats defend the indefensible.

I have never been comfortable with the idea of returning Bill Clinton to the White House in any capacity, even as First Gentleman (puke). It's pretty bizarre to me that Gloria Steinem et al don't see this as a problem.

I'm proud to see young women speaking out today.

[Cheese Sandwich]

69. Thank you so much.

I completely agree.

Al Gore would have made a fine President too.

[polly7]

74. I was also assaulted by the boss/owner of the bar I tended when I was just old enough

to drink myself and on my own, with a baby. He was slick, rich, handsome, charming ......... and a snake. Night after night he would try his crap, until finally I told his wife who ran the restaurant in the hotel and visited in the bar with me a lot that I was quitting. I needed that job so badly ... but it was torture. She kept pressing me as to why, I started bawling and told her. I guess I wasn't the only one, as I heard they divorced a few years later. I hate that man to this day and feel for everyone he targeted.

I don't care who it is, people with any kind of power over those they employ who do this deserve everything they have coming to them. Anyone who sticks up for them and tries to blame and shame their prey - whether they were 'willing' participants, or not - is just as deserving.

[xloadiex]

92. I agree

Bill Clinton should never be allowed to step foot back into the White House. It's not just Monica Lewinsky either. Lets not forget Gennifer Flowers. His vows of marriage obviously meant nothing to him. He's a snake who as a sitting president was also stripped of his law license for 5 years. Can you imagine if this was Obama?

[Nonhlanhla]

155. Lucky then that he's not running, eh? nt.

[xloadiex]

165. Running or not

He doesn't deserve to live in the White House or be called First Man.

My ignore list grows daily.

[2banon]

76. Very interesting to listen to her speak out on the impact of Cyber Bullying

Very impressed with her retrospective, very articulate good speaker. And I appreciate her openly discussing something so deeply personal and painful. Very Brave!

Good on her for bringing attention and championing an important cause.

[cry baby]

77. This right wing blather doesn't help Bernie win.

Bringing this up as a reason to vote for Bernie is shameful, disgusting victim-blaming.

If one wants to bring people over to Bernie's side, one should be as positive and hopeful and thoughtful as Bernie. One should show integrity, as Bernie does, and others will be drawn toward that message. No one will vote for Bernie because they read this tripe.

[Cheese Sandwich]

78. Why anyone is still defending Bill Clinton's sexcapades 20 years later is beyond me

Surely with hindsight we can all see what he did was wrong.

[cry baby]

81. Where, in my post, did I defend what Bill did?

And how does this line of attack help Bernie?

Answer: it doesn't. It's just a sickening attack on victims. You won't win hearts this way. It sounds desperate and crude and it's just totally misguided.

You're hurting the cause...not helping.

[Cheese Sandwich]

83. In this case Bill Clinton's victim is the American people

We lost years of national conversation into watching liberals devolve into making excuses and looking the other way for his disgraceful White House sexcapades.

[cry baby]

100. That canned statement doesn't answer my question...and

I totally agree that the ugly episode hurt the Democratic conversation, but to dismiss the fact that Hillary was a victim, too, is very shortsighted and lacks any empathy for anyone that finds themselves in the situation that Hillary did. Progressives should know better.

The Bernie Sanders that I have watched and admired for decades would be horrified by this tactic of victim-blaming. I feel bad for him that he has surrogates that bring this shit to the conversation.

[Cheese Sandwich]

101. I don't know how many affairs Bill Clinton had or why she decided to stay with him

[cry baby]

103. Doesn't matter. Are you a robot? I'm not sure I'm discussing

this with a human person.

Where in my previous post did I defend Bill Clinton's actions?

[Cheese Sandwich]

141. Human being here.

My point is that it's not ok for the president to have sex with his interns.

A lot people are defending it saying it IS ok for the president to have sex with his interns.

You see Hillary as a victim. Maybe but some others see her as an enabler or defender of Bill or someone who stood by her man, or someone who looked the other way to hang on to power, or to get more power.

I respect your opinion. I partly agree with you but at the same time I don't think that's the whole picture. Sorry if my previous response seemed robotic but perhaps I should have given more nuance.

[840high]

87. I think Bill hurt the cause

and the country.

[cry baby]

99. I believe so, too. nt

[treestar]

118. bringing it up 20 years later is the issue

and trying to tie it to Hillary is the issue.

[Cheese Sandwich]

122. Facts are facts. What happened happened. The 90s are over and we don't want to go back.

[FSogol]

130. The flaw in your correct analysis is that not everyone that claims

they are for Sanders is a Sanders supporter. Hypothetically, it could be that they are only here to post RW memes and disrupt. Who can tell?

[cry baby]

137. For sure! This person/bot is not helping to sell the great things

about Bernie. I don't even think it's a person with all the canned statements it's made all over gdp. I think I might block this bot from view.

[pinebox]

150. It's fair game and factual.

[cry baby]

162. Evidently a few misguided individuals agree with you.

None of them sound like people that have followed Bernie over the years or would be supporting Bernie now.

If you believe that this right wing crapola is Bernie's style or that he would approve of what some of his "supporters" are saying, you would be dead wrong.

[pinebox]

166. RW crapola? It's FACTS

Our candidates integrity matters. Period.
If you don't like it and want to live in a bubble, have at it but a rewrite of history isn't happening.

[cry baby]

169. Yup, Bill screwed up. Fact. That has nothing to do with this primary

election. The OP is victim-blaming because he/she is "supposedly" advocating for Bernie.

Victim shaming is NEVER ok. That's what this OP is doing, and apparently, you are agreeing with.

Shameful.

[pinebox]

170. Yes it does

He will be back in the WH if Hillary is elected, an impeached president.

[cry baby]

171. Like I said...right wing crapola. nt

[pinebox]

173. RW is good at ignoring facts

You should look into that

[cry baby]

174. Why? I have you to remind me of their main talking points. nt

[pinebox]

178. fail

[cry baby]

191. It's you that fails...fails to understand what Bernie is all about.

I pity you.

[Cheese Sandwich]

200. We're talking about how Clinton had sex with a White House intern and the liberals who defend it.

We're not talking about Martin O'Malley here, or Barack Obama, or Bernie Sanders. By all accounts none of them have ever fondled the interns so they aren't in the discussion. This is specifically about someone who did that and the liberals who defend it.

[olddots]

248. yes you are

[olddots]

246. nice try Skippy

[Dems to Win]

102. I'll see Hillary in that Special Place in Hell one day

Along with Gloria and Madeline. They didn't help Monica or Paula, I won't be helping Hillary.

Hellfire for us all!

[jillan]

106. As a woman who has been in Hillary's shoes - I won't go there BUT I will say the difference between

her and me is I told him to get lost.

I have more respect for myself than that. I will not share my life with someone who thinks so little of me that they are willing to lie to me to my face.

[Beacool]

109. Bill Clinton didn't teach this girl about oral sex, the Republicans and Ken Starr did.

Do I approve of Clintons actions with Lewinsky? No, I don't. On the other hand, his sex life was none of my business.

I don't give a rat's backside about Bill Clinton receiving oral sex from a girl who was over 18 and by her own admission pursued him, not the other way around.

What's more, I don't think that women are appendages of men and responsible for their partner's behavior.

[Cheese Sandwich]

112. Do you think it's OK for the president to have sex with his interns?

Liberals disgraced themselves by looking the other way on this behavior in the 90s. Times have changed. We should stop excusing this.

[Beacool]

113. This OP is tiresome.

The issue has been rehashed to death. I already posted that I didn't agree with his behavior, but Hillary is the one who is running for president, not Bill. Also, Bill did not make his peccadilloes public, the Republicans and their hypocritical witch hunt were the ones who publicized his fling.

[Cheese Sandwich]

117. Don't bother with it then.

For someone who doesn't agree with the behavior you sure are twisting into pretzels to make excuses for it.

Face facts. If President Obama got caught having sex with a young intern in the White House he would have had to resign.

For one thing a black president would be held to a different standard. For another thing times have changed. The country has changed. We take such things more seriously now.

People may have looked the other way in the 90s, but times have changed. That's not going to fly anymore. Thankfully our society today has much more awareness about issues of sexual assault, rape, and inappropriate relationships where people are in positions of trusted authority.

[840high]

124. Imagine if a republican wins and

he's caught having sex in his office. DU would be exploding with blame and rage.

[840high]

123. So he didn't make it public - is

that supposed to be a plus. We have a name for his behavior now and it's frowned on in a workplace.

[treestar]

116. whether it is or not has nothing to do with Hillary

that's where you fail big time.

This discussion is for the 90s. Not relevant now.

[Cheese Sandwich]

119. Amazing how Bernie Sanders is tied to his friends

like Dr. Cornel West, and yet magically the crimes of Hillary's closest people don't attach to her at all.

[treestar]

120. I don't even know what cornel west's behavior is

so I plead not guilty. I'm not voting for Bernie because of bills sins (not crimes) and Cornel West has nothing to do with it.

[Cheese Sandwich]

121. The fact is that candidates major supporters do become a poltical issues in and of themselves.

Bill Clinton is Hillary's close personal person and obviously someone she trusts just like she trusts Henry Kissinger.

[treestar]

140. only to Republicans

with their Saul Alinsky and Reverend Wright and the stuff that was even more ridiculous. And that was at least over some issue that could be said to be political, not personal lives.

At any rate, the 90s called and wants its issue back.

[Cheese Sandwich]

142. That's funny because the Clinton campaign attacked Obama for attending black liberation sermons

at Reverend Wright's church.

[treestar]

143. The 90s still wants its issue back

you're changing the subject. I don't agree with Clinton if she did that in 2008 but it's water under the bridge now. That's 8 years ago. So stuff from the 90s is of like zero interest.

[Cheese Sandwich]

147. Actually the issue is that times have changed since the 1990s

Maybe people looked the other way back then, but that's not going to fly these days. Thank goodness our society is better now. There is a lot more awareness on issues of sexual harassment, assault, rape, and inappropriate relationships for people in positions of trust and power.

We have seen the Catholic Church scandal. We challenged rape culture on college campuses and in the military. Workplace sexual harassment is taken more seriously now.

It's a different world than when the Clintons were in the White House. Times have changed and we're never going back. Thank goodness.

President Obama has made us all proud. He has held the office with dignity. We owe him and his family a lot of respect.

So it's this simple: The president should not have sex with a 22 year old intern. That's the whole thing.

[Bluenorthwest]

135. Very relevant. It was Bill's 'issues' that made him compromised, we got DOMA to prove how holy

pants traditional he and Hillary were. Both of them defended DOMA for years on end and she was an aggressive opponent of marriage equality until a couple of years ago. All of that need to posture and pose with Bibles and preachers came about because the country found out about Monica. And typically, those found to be sexually freewheeling and open minded in the straight community got suddenly anti gay as a way to keep their private lives private.

Because of that, I have had to endure years of people saying LGBT have plenty of rights already. I'm sick of that shit. So I am voting for Bernie Sanders.

[Cheese Sandwich]

136. yep

And we also have no idea what they traded behind closed doors to avoid other investigations or exposures.

This kind of "personal" behavior isn't just personal when we're talking about the president. It opens the door for all kinds of blackmail.

[artislife]

158. I just remember thinking

during all of it, that he likes plump women who are not model beautiful. Look at all of the women that we know of...

[pinebox]

167. cough cough

[Beacool]

195. The 90s called. They want their video back.

[napi21]

111. This is HISTORY! It haooened a LONG TIME AGO!

Faulting Hillary for "sticking with her partner" is wrong and none of our business! The same cheating situation occurs around the world every day Some couples stay together and some don't. That's a decision that is theirs alone!

"As to Monica, she was just as guilty as Bill. They were BOTH WRONG! Why she thinks she shouldn't have been shamed or branded is beyond my understanding. That's a risk you take when you want to "play". Sure she was punished more than most women in the same situation, but she ALSO chose the most publically known man in the world to "play" with.

YES, I'm a woman! I saw more of this kind of activity in the workplace than I can list. Sometimes they get caught, sometimes they don't. That's the risk you take.

[treestar]

145. +1

She wanted to go to the WH for that specific purpose, if I recall!

[libdem4life]

132. I have a sister who lives in Arkansas. It was well known that he had security and LEOs

go convince "targets" of beautiful women for him to partake of. Again, he was enabled and no one spoke out...so what does an addict do when enabled? Continue and it becomes worse.

As far as Hillary is concerned, it speaks to the Family Clinton, just like the Family Bush. They rise on the name recognition, but want to deny the details, the smarmy ones, at least. Yes, she contains all that baggage, like it or not. It's not why I'm not voting for her, but the Clinton shady affairs, denial and enabling are definite warning signals.

[Ed Suspicious]

134. What an important talk. God, I can't even imagine what it would have been like to be her.

If only she wasn't employed by the most powerful man in the world. If only she had had a little life experience in front of her before she was. How different life would have been for her and for our country. How different things would have been if her boss wasn't a dishonest philander.

[Corey_Baker08]

138. Don't Flatter Yourself Now

[Cheese Sandwich]

139. ok that was funny

[Blue_Tires]

146. Please..

Lewinsky's behavior after the scandal was shameless and reprehensible... She deserved and happily accepted all the abuse thrown at her as long as she got her piece of the spotlight and the $$$ was still flowing.

[Cheese Sandwich]

157. I completely disagree. The president should not have sex with his interns. That's my bottom line.

I'm not impressed by liberals who defend presidents having sex with interns and then try to shame and blame the intern.

Truly not impressed with that.

[Blue_Tires]

164. I thought this was about the so-called abuse

and not the actual act itself?

I can criticize the act (according to my own sexual mores) without believing WJC needed to be impeached by a Senate whose members had been repeatedly caught with their zippers down...

[Cheese Sandwich]

149. Note: The title of the article has changed on the Guardian Website

The new title is Hillary Bill and me: on growing up in the shadow of Monica Lewinsky.

The original title was Memo to candidate Hillary Clinton: I could have been a Monica Lewinsky.

You can still see it here in their twitter: https://twitter.com/GuardianUS/status/701399354783956992

[vdogg]

152. I think Hillary can be forgiven

For having unkind things to say about the woman who slept with her husband! It takes two to tango FFS.

[Cheese Sandwich]

154. Of course but then Bill will be back in the White House too and he has this record

[treestar]

212. so what? He'll only be the First Lady.

How sexist.

[Cheese Sandwich]

217. He'll be in fundraising, politics and policy.

[fun n serious]

153. This is a CLEAR sign of DESPERATION.

LMAO

[Cheese Sandwich]

163. Not really.

It's just an interesting article and I really related to it. A lot of us defended Clinton in the 90s but some of us regret it.

[Nonhlanhla]

159. It seems some Bernie supporters

really love them some Republican talking points.

I will not defend Bill's actions, but I should also not have to defend him, 20 years later, in response to Democrats on a Democratic site using his sexcapades to undermine the presidential bid of his wife.

The argument here seems to be: don't vote for Hillary because her husband cheated on her.

[Cheese Sandwich]

160. That's really not the message here at all

It's nothing to do with don't vote for her because her husband cheated.

For me the main issue here is that the president shouldn't have sex with his interns.

But actually it's not a good idea to have a spouse of a president become another president at all.

That's too much power for one family.

[noretreatnosurrender]

175. Don't Vote for Bernie Cornell West Supports Him

I hear you. A lot of Sanders supporters feel the same way about democrats on a Democratic site who keep trying to undermine our candidate by twisting race and gender issues to suit their needs or going after us because someone who supports our candidate said bad things about President Obama. They also use civil rights heroes of ours to slam us and our candidate (those really hurt). After these merciless attacks we are then told we better toughen up because the GOP will throw worse things at us.

I don't know if this post was done to show Hillary supporters how it feels to be on the receiving end like we have been but I hope they now have some idea of why we've been so angry.

Sorry to meet you in a thread like this but judging by your rational post it sounds like you might empathize with the other side and help bridge the divide.

[Nonhlanhla]

182. I have not seen anyone make that argument

If they did, it would indeed be a silly argument.

All I've seen is some Hillary supporters pointing out that Cornel West is not helping Bernie gaining African American voters. Which is true enough, as a simple fact. Cornel West is a great scholar (his book "Race Matters" still has an impact on me after many years), but he made the mistake of publicly and harshly criticizing the nations's first African American president, something which did not endear him to the broad African American public. As such, he is not helping Bernie gain many African American voters.

Pointing that out is not exactly the same as dragging an old scandal of our candidate's husband out of the archives.

[noretreatnosurrender]

197. thanks for your response

Thank you for your response. I agree that Mr. West is not helping Mr. Sanders gain large numbers of black votes. That task, I believe is for Mr. Sanders, himself to do. Other than Mr. West what is it about Mr. Sanders that is preventing him from earning black votes? Is it just his criticism of President Obama or is there something else in your view?

I guess we will agree to disagree about all of the other things I mentioned that I thought were hurtful being on par with this particular thread. I think those items and this thread are all hurtful.

[Nonhlanhla]

199. I can't say for sure

I'm not African American, and I certainly cannot speak for the African American community. I can tell you only what I think based on my observations.

Bernie's own criticism of Obama clearly hurt him. One friend of mine, a respected AA academic, told me that despite his own progressive criticism of Obama, he felt that Obama is too important to the AA community to be criticized too much publicly, especially given the criticism he is getting from the Right. I could totally see his point. (I'm also a huge Obama fan, so I agreed that we on the Left need not pile on him as well - he's got enough of that from the Right.) I just don't think Bernie realized (or cared much at the time, in 2012, when he was making noises about someone challenging Obama) just how important Obama is to the African American community. It indicates a certain tone deafness that, I suspect, might add to suspicion of him as someone who might not really understand the issues facing African Americans.

Linked to that, I also think Bernie's focus on class issues and Johnny-come-lately inclusion of race (and gender) alongside class, may be harming him with women and minorities. As a woman, I can say honestly that I do not wish my issues to be channeled through class lenses. I want them to matter by themselves, and with Bernie it does not feel as if they do. I suspect that something similar might going on in minority communities.

I also think the AA community in general does not have the same negative reaction to Hillary as white communities have (for all kinds of reasons), and therefore they don't see the need to find an alternative candidate.

I'm purely speculating, of course. As I said, I don't really know. For better insight, you might want to read some of the posts by AA members here, like Bravenak and others.

[noretreatnosurrender]

203. Thank you again

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I'm a strong feminist woman too so I hear you. It's interesting you mentioned Bravenak. I've spoken with Bravenak several times. She (I believe) always posts links to interesting pieces that I enjoy reading. Have a good evening and I hope my initial post didn't offend you.

[Nonhlanhla]

204. Not at all

I've enjoyed our conversation. I wish there was more of that on DU.

[noretreatnosurrender]

205. Me Too

It sure would make it more enjoyable to be here. Hopefully I'll see you in another thread sometime.

[Paladin]

176. This is beneath contempt, even by the low standards of the Bernie Bloc. (nt)

[Cheese Sandwich]

177. If you can't handle Cheese Sandwich how you gonna handle Trump?

You should thank me for reminding you this is a huge political weakness.

[Cali_Democrat]

185. LOL!

[Warren DeMontague]

187. And with one post, all the otherwise arguable objections from camp HRC to this thread, are negated.

Oh, except "that's different, because reasons"

[treestar]

239. Thanks for giving us the practice

Opposing it. Yes, it is the right wing that will bring up this sort of irrelevancy.

Too bad most Bernie people here hide his negatives. If he became the nominee, they would be stunned and end up defeated, unable to handle criticism of Bernie as they are.

[Cheese Sandwich]

240. don't be surprised if more Clinton rape accusers emerge

Bill Clinton could be like the Bill Cosby of 2016. Or 2017 for that matter.

[treestar]

241. you think Bernie ones can't

after the right wing gets hold of some of his writings?

[Beacool]

196. Standards, what standards?

Nothing is too low in their quest to attack Hillary. Sanders lost NV, therefore bring out Bill and Monica.

It might as well be a RW site, same attacks.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

179. A blow job is not a constitutional crisis.

And, YES I AM a lawyer.

He should have said, "None of your goddamned business." It had nothing to do with his conduct of duties of the Presidency.

It's between him and Hillary and Monica. Not the voters.

[Cheese Sandwich]

180. Do you think it's the president's private business when he has sex with his interns?

Because that's what you just said.

I would disagree with that.

The most powerful man in the world should not be having sexing with his 20 year old interns.

For starters it's a national security risk. He could be blackmailed over a secret sex affair.

And it cost the nation a lot. It left him open to attacks from Republicans. Any progressive agenda was derailed. Not that there was any.

Also how much did Clinton compromise away to protect himself during the impeachment?

God only knows what other affairs he had and what he may have traded away to keep it covered up.

[Jitter65]

206. You talking about Monica-knee-pad Lewinsky?

Monica Lewinsky has penned a new tell-all about her affair with President Bill ... One saying among other things she is diabolical in her thinking. ... she told friends that she was "going to DC to get her presidential knee pads".

I remember this well.

Still he should have been smart enough and able to control himself while in office.
I remember something that my grandmother said to me when I was about to leave my spouse after i found out about ant affair he had. (At the risk of sounding sexist violating some rule here) :

"Honey, get over it. A stiff d _ _ _ has no conscience. He still loves you."
Maybe Hillary knew my grandmother?

[Manifestor_of_Light]

215. She blabbed to Linda Tripp who got her in trouble.

And then Ken Starr spent some several million dollars going after Bill to prove his moral superiority and get back at the Democrats for Watergate. Ken Starr is now the president of Baylor University. The largest Baptist university in the world. In Wacko, Texas, as some of us call it.


Linda Tripp was a real backstabber.

[bigwillq]

181. What Bill did to that poor girl. He abused his power.

He cared more about his penis than the country. Damn shame.

[Dems to Win]

193. So disgusting that the best idea the Democratic Establishment can come up with in 2016

is to return the same married couple to the White House that left 16 years ago. I swear the Dem Leaders are trying to lose this election.

I sure don't want to return to All Clinton Drama, All the Time. It wasn't good for the country in the 90s, it won't move the country forward in 2016.

I'm not willing to pretend that returning the Clintons to the White House for their third term and calling it our first woman president will be some feminist triumph.

I did not defend Bill in 1998, I won't be defending the Clintons in 2016. Of course Bill's history and Hillary's enabling will be a topic of the campaign by Trump or any Republican.

[Cheese Sandwich]

201. Of course yes this topic will come up again in the general election

Trump or whoever will probably cite it as one more example of bad judgement.

We already know Kathleen Willey will be campaigning id Hillary gets the nomination.

http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/presidential-races/268590-bill-clinton-sexual-assault-accuser-to-campaign-against

[Ken Burch]

202. For some reason, in my head I heard the young Marlon Brando saying

"I coulda been a Lewinsky...I coulda been somebody...".

I'm going to lie awake all night trying to unhear that.

[Duppers]

229. This big Bernie supporter wishes you wouldn't post

this stuff.

There's so much to attack Hillary on without bringing up this sort of soap opera crap.

No offense.

[Cheese Sandwich]

231. ok I will try to be better

[Stand and Fight]

230. Very often the anti-Hillary folks on here don't sound any different than FReepers.

However, it seems that such right-wing talk is now acceptable and condoned on DU.

[olddots]

247. nice try Skippy

[Tarc]

242. Camp Sanders has gone the full Free Republic now

Lewinskygate?

[Cheese Sandwich]

243. Camp sanders is a myth

Instead of griping you should try to understand how the author of this article actually feels about the issue. Try listening. It really helps.

[Tarc]

245. People still amped up about Lewinsky aren't worth listening to

[Major Hogwash]

244. And this is the anchor chained around her anke that will forever follow her.

There is no ignoring it, or wishing it away, it is always there.