2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumHow Trump would debate Hillary (vs. Bernie)
Bernie has not gone after Hillary on anything but the issues. But Trump will, and that would make the debates for the general very different from the debates for the nomination. Sure, Hillary will be stronger on policy, but does anyone doubt that, unlike Sanders, Trump would go after her on character? How does she come back against that?
I think this excerpt from a recently posted article is particularly relevant, when you think about what a Trump-Clinton debate would sound like, vs. a Trump-Sanders debate. I hadn't looked at it this way, and I think it really drives home how much more difficult it would be for Clinton to directly take on Trump on the national stage. (Bold emphasis added.)
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Because the Republican primary will be over, he can come at her from both right and left as he pleases. As the candidate who thundered against the Iraq War at the Republican debate, he can taunt Clinton over her support for it. He will paint her as a member of the corrupt political establishment, and will even offer proof: Well, I know you can buy politicians, because I bought Senator Clinton. I gave her money, she came to my wedding. He can make it appear that Hillary Clinton can be bought, that he cant, and that he is in charge.
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One can already imagine the monologue: She lies so much. Everything she says is a lie. Ive never seen someone who lies so much in my life. Let me tell you three lies shes told. She made up a story about how she was ducking sniper fire! There was no sniper fire. She made it up! How do you forget a thing like that? She said she was named after Sir Edmund Hillary, the guy who climbed Mount Everest. He hadnt even climbed it when she was born! Total lie! She lied about the emails, of course, as we all know, and is probably going to be indicted. You know she said there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq! It was a lie! Thousands of American soldiers are dead because of her. Not only does she lie, her lies kill people. Thats four lies, I said Id give you three. You cant even count them. You want to go on PolitiFact, see how many lies she has? It takes you an hour to read them all! In fact, they ask her, she doesnt even say she hasnt lied. They asked her straight up, she says she usually tries to tell the truth! Ooooh, she tries! Come on! This is a person, every single word out of her mouth is a lie. Nobody trusts her. Check the polls, nobody trusts her. Yuge liar. Where does she even begin to respond to this? Some of its true, some of it isnt, but the more she tries to defensively parse it...the deeper she sinks into the hole.
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None of the sleaze in which Trump traffics can be found clinging to Bernie...Trump is an attention-craving parasite, and such creatures are powerful only when indulged and paid attention to. Clinton will be forced to pay attention to Trump because of his constant evocation of her scandals. She will attempt to go after him. She will, in other words, feed the troll. Sanders, by contrast, will almost certainly behave as if Trump isnt even there...Sanders is thus an almost perfect secret weapon against Trump. He can pull off the only maneuver that is capable of neutralizing Trump: ignoring him and actually keeping the focus on the issues.
And I have to compliment the author on capturing Trump's style... that phantom tirade he created for him does indeed sound like something that would easily flow out of Trump's mouth. It really puts the warning into perspective, I think. How does Hillary respond to that? As he says, there's no good response. She can't simply ignore it, she can't easily explain it, and it will overshadow what remaining opportunity she has to actually focus on their policy/experience differences.
Much more at the link, the whole article is a good read.
https://www.currentaffairs.org/2016/02/unless-the-democrats-nominate-sanders-a-trump-nomination-means-a-trump-presidency
gg4usa
(83 posts)thesquanderer
(11,991 posts)I think Cruz might actually be worse for the country than Trump!
In an open primary, I'd vote for Sanders, as the best candidate to stop WHOEVER the Republicans put up. Unless maybe, by the time the primaries get to your state, Clinton already has it wrapped up, then you might want to vote for teh Republican you want her to run against. Though honestly, I think the Republicans are likely to have their side wrapped up before we do.
gg4usa
(83 posts)But the point is to split the GOP ticket between Trump and Cruz (or whoever is the 2nd in line) making it impossible for the Democrat to lose. Trump has basically said he will run as an independent if he loses the primary; the other GOP nominees probably won't. I think Cruz hasn't a chance in h--- of winning the general election, whereas Trump has so much momentum and media attention that it could happen - and what a disaster that would be! You are obvious a Bernie supporter - he is basically assured of winning in my state (VT).
thesquanderer
(11,991 posts)...and that kind of split of the Republican party would be great news for the Dems. So yeah, I can see "anti-trump" being a tempting vote.
OTOH, dems award delegates proportionately, so you can't really say "Sanders is going to win my state anyway, so my vote for him won't count." It always counts. And in VT in particular, IIRC, if he actually manages to get 85% of the vote, he gets every singe delegate, Hillary gets none. So the goal isn't simply to win (i.e. get more than 50%), there is benefit to winning by as big a margin as possible!
gg4usa
(83 posts)I love Bernie and I'm proud he's my senator, but as an older woman, Hillary would get my vote. I guess Democrats have to decide if they want to play dirty - vote against Trump to force him to run 3rd party, or vote either Bernie or Hillary in hopes that their choice can stop Trump if he gets the GOP nomination. It's more important to me that the Democrats continue the work that Obama started, so I think my little vote stretches further by trying to force Trump out now. Bernie has the support of young people, but most I know aren't even registered to vote and say they aren't voting. They talk the talk, but will they walk the walk? Especially in some states where they've made it difficult for college students to vote (have to go home to vote, can't use their student ids, have to vote absentee etc.).
thesquanderer
(11,991 posts)If your preference for Hillary is strong and you think Bernie remains a threat to her overall, you might want to make sure she gets everything she can out of VT's proportional allotment, and especially, that she doesn't fall below the 15% threshold to get nothing. OTOH, if your preference is relatively slight or if you think Bernie's no real threat anyway, that could provide additional rationale for a vote against Trump being the greater good.
yourpaljoey
(2,166 posts)And he can employ 100 percent truths to pummel her with.
Volley after volley... and he will not let up.
No one could withstand such.
thesquanderer
(11,991 posts)He will go for the jugular. Hillary would be unlikely to get any states other than the bluest.
wyldwolf
(43,870 posts)... lots of yelling, arm waving and finger pointing.
thesquanderer
(11,991 posts)GreatGazoo
(3,937 posts)She can play the victim, calls fouls and basically just run as the person who ISN'T Trump.
thesquanderer
(11,991 posts)But real issues are where she comes off best. She's especially good at sounding really knowledgable about the topic, while keeping her actual positions vague enough that people can still often read what they want into them.
I guess the question really comes down to: Is running as the person who ISN'T Trump good enough to beat him? And if it just might be, doesn't Sanders have the same advantage, with fewer disadvantages?