2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumWhat do you mean, Hillary won Minnesota!?
Hillary's strengths are with minorities and moderates. Bernie's strengths are with hard-liberals and young folks. This means that some states obviously favor some candidates more than others -- but what's more, by looking at the actual demographics, we can actually put a number on that advantage. We can determine how many delegates from each state each candidate should win, if national polling is 50-50.
So for example, Bernie's advantage in Colorado was large enough that we would have expected him to pick up six delegates more than Hillary. Instead, however, he picked up ten more than Hillary. In this sense, he not only won Colorado, but he prevented Hillary from getting the number of delegates that she would have expected from that state.
Another example is New Hampshire: the demographics tell us that Bernie should have beaten Hillary by six delegates in that state. And that's exactly what happened. In this sense, although Bernie got more delegates in New Hampshire, as far as expectations were concerned it was a tie.
So what about Minnesota?
We're a mostly white, very liberal state with a large youth population and high voter turnout. So judging from the demographics, Bernie should have defeated Hillary by 17 delegates in the North Star State. He didn't. He beat her by 15. So in the sense that Hillary did better than expected here, and prevented Bernie from doing as well as expected, she won Minnesota.
I know it might seem counter-intuitive, but the math is what it is.
This is what I mean when I talk about targets. When I say that Hillary's target to date is 529, and Bernie's is 492, I mean this: we always knew that Hillary was going to do better than Bernie in South Carolina and the Super Tuesday states, and that she would be ahead of him at this point. But more than that: we know, from looking at the demographics, how much better she would have done if voters across the country were split 50-50. If that were the case, then Hillary should be 37 delegates ahead of Bernie right now.
She's not. She's 197 delegates ahead.
When I say that Bernie is 80 delegates behind target, what I mean is this: We know that Bernie is going to fare better in most of the states after March 15. But in order to make up ground on Hillary, he needs to pick up 80 delegates more than we already expect him to do based on the demographics.
For example, Bernie is expected to win Kansas tonight. But we can quantify that expectation, and say that Bernie should win 19 delegates from Kansas, to Hillary's 14. If Bernie wins 20 delegates from Kansas, then he is one delegate over that state's target, and that 80-delegate deficit becomes 79. If he wins 21 delegates from Kansas, his deficit shrinks to 78, and so on. Similarly, if he only wins 18 delegates to Hillary's 15, his deficit increases to 81, and Hillary's surplus over target increases to 81. In that sense, Hillary will have "won" Kansas, even though she took fewer delegates.
Similarly, if Bernie can pick up more than 18 of Louisiana's 51 delegates tonight, he will have "won" Louisiana, even though he will walk away with fewer delegates than Hillary.
One more thing: Of the 15 states and 1 territory that have voted so far, even though Bernie took home more delegates in five states, he actually "won" only three of them (VT, CO, OK), all by small margins and "tied" in a fourth (NH). Hillary has "won" everything else, mostly by large margins. And I use quotation marks to signify that this sense of the word "won" is different from everyday use, not that it is unreal or less real. Quite the contrary.
So if you're watching the results tonight, Bernie's target numbers are 19 in Kansas, 18 in Louisiana, and 15 in Kansas. He also has a target of 15 in Maine, which votes tomorrow.
Response to Chichiri (Original post)
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Autumn
(45,079 posts)they come into play at the convention, not before.
Chichiri
(4,667 posts)I'm assuming, as most Bernie supporters are, that superdelegates will end up backing whoever wins the most pledged delegates. All the numbers above refer to pledged delegates only.
Autumn
(45,079 posts)Chichiri
(4,667 posts)Hortensis
(58,785 posts)for Minnesota, for anyone who didn't notice, was apparently 46 Bernie, 31 Hillary (not 47 and 30) as she earned one more delegate than initially reported.
A Simple Game
(9,214 posts)Chichiri
(4,667 posts)15 and 9 are exactly what they ended up with.
The super delegates were included at the end of the evening and Bernie, as a result, ended up with only one more delegate than Hillary! IT WAS ANNOUNCED THAT VERY SAME NIGHT!
Super delegates are free to choose whomever they want, REGARDLESS of how the vote went in their home state. And those in NH were ALREADY pledged to Clinton. You do not remember how upset people were the next day?
How to subvert an election!
Chichiri
(4,667 posts)Only pledged delegates.
AgerolanAmerican
(1,000 posts)This is an extremely diverse country and a demographic breakdown in one state or region does not necessarily translate to the other states and regions.
Let's complete the voting and see what happens. The will of the people, not the expectations of the insulated, chattering class, is paramount.
Chichiri
(4,667 posts)Literally the second polls closed in those states. There were certainly people still in line to vote in those states, and their votes count no less than those who had already voted. The networks called it anyway.
Voting patterns do exist, and to an extent can be quantified. What you call the insulated, chattering class consists of smart people who have put a lot of time, effort, and skill into pinning down these patterns and telling us what they mean.
And yes, each state's demographics was analyzed separately, without regard to other states or regions. That's how the target numbers were arrived at.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)It's not the chattering classes. It's political and social scientists explaining and predicting behavior. Of course folks are individuals but patterns exist.
DemonGoddess
(4,640 posts)Gothmog
(145,225 posts)Kang Colby
(1,941 posts)Once you include the superdelegates it becomes obvious that Bernie's campaign is just a public awareness event for his pet issues, in my opinion.
ellennelle
(614 posts)the super delegates will not really be 'included' as they'll side with the winner.
if they don't, and it's an otherwise win for sanders, it could get a bit scary, like 68.
the whole concept of super delegates is totally undemocratic; even pelosi admitted to as much just this week.
just sayin'
Jopin Klobe
(779 posts)... during the course of this process ...
... like voting with the number of popular votes ... kinda like a DEMOCRACY ...
... because this is supposed to be "majority of the people" voting instead of "majority of the establishment-picked "Super"delegates" ..
... regardless of what Debbie Wasser-WhoCares says ...
Beacool
(30,247 posts)Found it. It was from the 538.
http://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/election-2016/delegate-targets/democrats/
Bleacher Creature
(11,256 posts)fleabiscuit
(4,542 posts)NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)... to hit the 15% mark? Will he be VIABLE enough to capture ANY delegates at all from those two states?
Or will Hillary manage to get ALL of the delegates (100%) because of a poor showing from Bernie?
These two states help to illustrate the consequences of "writing-off" certain states for reasons that have already been discussed at length elsewhere on this web site. It seems like a mistake to me to trade off NECESSARY delegates for UNNECESSARY "bragging-rights" of having "won" a state with a relatively low delegate count.
After all, the winner of the nomination will be determined by DELEGATES not by STATES (which may be small or which may lack diversity.)
Go, Hillary! We love you!
Chichiri
(4,667 posts). . . I'm guessing there's a 20% chance that Bernie will fall below 15% in Louisiana. Possible, but not likely.
Mississippi is different. The latest projection is 14.5% for Bernie.
radical noodle
(8,000 posts)Thanks for the explanation!
Buzz Clik
(38,437 posts)I get what you're saying, but I'm far more interested in trends and total delegates.
artislife
(9,497 posts)stonecutter357
(12,697 posts)ismnotwasm
(41,979 posts)dlwickham
(3,316 posts)MisterP
(23,730 posts)Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)perhaps it was Hillary's snub of of the predominantly Black North Mpls rally at Henry High School, I don't know for sure bur minorities voted for Bernie in thee same proportion as their white counter parts
Chichiri
(4,667 posts)There are only greater and lesser degrees of white. The least white district is CD-5 (Minneapolis and eastern Hennepin county), which is less than 31% minority.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)no cleaning that up
Chichiri
(4,667 posts)That district went about 60% Bernie. So did central Ramsey county, which is the blackest county in the state.
Compare that to the white-as-chalk Clay County, which went about 80% Bernie.
Or the even whiter Blue Earth county, which went about 75% Bernie.
Or the even-whiter-still Stevens County, which went almost 85% Bernie.
Or Clearwater county, which . . . well, it actually has about the statewide average of minorities. And it went for Hillary.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)12th & Knox to be exact, if you know the area as well as you claim there's not much you can tell me
Chichiri
(4,667 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)Chichiri
(4,667 posts)Tiggeroshii
(11,088 posts)kristopher
(29,798 posts)First, since you've provided no background for the method and data sources used in calculating the 'targets' I presume actual numbers you've presented to be for demonstration purposes only.
So, when you suggest specific numbers for tonight's contests the suggestion has no weight unless and until you substantiate them.
Second, the presumption behind all of these types of analysis by theHillary supporters is that Bernie will not continue to expand his base of support.
That is a self serving presumption that is part of a strong attempt by media and the Hillary campaign to affect the outcome of the process. In other words, it is a form of cheating.
Chichiri
(4,667 posts)The methodology is at the bottom of this page: http://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/election-2016/delegate-targets/democrats/
And of course it's possible that Bernie will expand his base in coming weeks, but the chances are nil that it will be sufficient. And that's not a presumption, it's induction. The same thing that tells us we probably won't see Earth collide with a neutron star today.
kristopher
(29,798 posts)You should include the link to 538 in the OP. It appears deceptive to have omitted it.
Chichiri
(4,667 posts)He is currently averaging 37.5%, and the progression has been more or less linear that whole time. So his base is expanding at a touch more than one tenth of one percent per day (it's actually been much less than that since the end of September, but we'll go with a tenth of a percent for simplicity). At that rate, he will be at 43.4% when California votes.
So yeah. Nil yesterday, nil today, nil tomorrow.
BainsBane
(53,032 posts)and it sure as hell didn't feel like a win.
I don't like expectations metrics. He won the state handily and it was his biggest delegate gain over her so far: 18. Now, that pales in comparison to the huge number of delegates she won in states like Texas and elsewhere, but Bernie did win MN.
Chichiri
(4,667 posts)And it didn't feel very good to me either. But the math is what it is.
BainsBane
(53,032 posts)and he won here. That is not to say he's winning the nomination. Clearly he trails considerably.
yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)looks like 47-44, Bernie just a hair ahead.
It takes 2,382 delegates to win the nomination.
You have to count them ALL or you'll never have a winner! What would be the point of having primaries and caucuses if you can't have a winner?
http://www.thegreenpapers.com/P16/MN-D
PoliticalMalcontent
(449 posts)Eric J in MN
(35,619 posts)A person playing the expectations game could say that Hillary Clinton is world famous, and so should have gotten over 90% of the vote in Iowa, but since she only won Iowa by .3% points she really lost there.
Chichiri
(4,667 posts)Hatchling
(2,323 posts)And there is a quote that Mark Twin popularized: "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."
Chichiri
(4,667 posts)...written by a guy who was berating advocates of the state pension, their version of Social Security, for relying on statistics.
The state pension is still around.
Hatchling
(2,323 posts)But (as my post said) Twain popularized it in this country.
Stuckinthebush
(10,845 posts)DesertRat
(27,995 posts)SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Targets made easy:
Kansas
Bernie 19
Hillary 14
Louisiana
Bernie 18
Hillary 33
Nebraska
Bernie 15
Hillary 10
Total:
Bernie 52
Hillary 57
Sid