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MSMITH33156

(879 posts)
Tue Oct 16, 2012, 01:06 PM Oct 2012

The Myth of Obama's Swing State "firewall" and why it is actually much bigger than that

We keep hearing about Obama's Swing State firewall, and how Romney needs to crumple it to win. But this actually grossly understates Obama's advantage. First, which states are not swing states but are somehow being counted as ones:

1) Pennsylvania
2) Michigan
3) Wisconsin

Yes, these races might be closer than we expect, but simply looking at the RCP polls for the 3 states:

Pennsylvania: http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2012/president/pa/pennsylvania_romney_vs_obama-1891.html#polls
Michigan: http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2012/president/mi/michigan_romney_vs_obama-1811.html#polls
Wisconsin: http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2012/president/wi/wisconsin_romney_vs_obama-1871.html#polls

Romney hasn't lead a poll in any of those states since August, despite the multitude of different polls with different models, and with several being right leaning. If he wins those states, then Obama is getting dominated in a landslide and there is no point in even analyzing the election. It won't be an election, but a coronation for Romney. I don't see any way that happens.

But let's look deeper, and what that does to the map:



Romney is in really, really big trouble. Out of 85 remaining electoral votes, he needs a 63 (he will win with 269). That means he needs 74% of electoral votes from swing states. But it's even worse than that. You read things like this:



Romney is now in dead heats or better with the president in Nevada, Colorado, Iowa, Ohio, Virginia, North Carolina, and Florida.


That is the sound of Romney losing. Dead heat does no good. He can't afford to only win half of those. I read this morning (can't remember where) that "whoever wins 2 out of 3 of Ohio, Florida and Virginia" is likely to win the election. To quote the VP, what a bunch of malarkey. Romney has to win all 3, and then some.

This is what happens if Romney wins 2 out of 3:

Obama wins Ohio


Obama wins Virginia


Obama wins Florida


Florida wins it, Ohio gets Obama within 5 votes, and VA gets him within 10 votes. And these are scenarios where things go wrong and he loses 2 out of 3 biggest toss up states. Romney would still be behind, and still have to make up a lot of ground. But let's say it goes really, really bad, and Romney wins all 3:



Obviously, at this point. Romney is ahead. But look beyond that:

1) We gave Romney all 3 of the largest swing states, including Ohio, where he is pretty clearly 4-5 points behind right now.
2) He still didn't win!

Florida, Virginia and Ohio actually aren't enough.

In fact, if Obama doesn't lose a state that Kerry or Gore won, then the map becomes this:



And the entire election comes down to Nevada and Colorado, 2 states where Obama has an excellent ground game, and where Obama could very easily win like this:



That's why I take issue with the term "swing state firewall." It's actually a blue state firewall, in that states that are in the bag for Obama far outnumber those that are in the bag for Romney in terms of electoral vote. Romney doesn't need to just do well in swing states, he needs a blow out. Yes, Obama is doing slightly better overall in swing states, but even a "tie" will allow Obama to win easily. Romney needs to sweep the Big 3 and then do more work. This is all assuming he wins North Carolina, of course. The map greatly, greatly favors Obama, he basically just needs to hit a SAC Fly, Romney needs a grand slam. So, when the narrative turns to, "whoever wins this state wins the presidency" or "2 out of 3 of these states" or "Romney and Obama are in a dead heat in swing states", those are all actually favorable to Obama because of his BLUE STATE firewall that has put him way out in front before the swing states come into play.

Just some food for thought and why OFA is still quietly confident. The map is tilted not slightly, but very heavily in their favor.
34 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
The Myth of Obama's Swing State "firewall" and why it is actually much bigger than that (Original Post) MSMITH33156 Oct 2012 OP
Excellent Analysis, Sir The Magistrate Oct 2012 #1
Good info, thanks! nt flamingdem Oct 2012 #2
EXACTLY. THANK YOU!!!! Maximumnegro Oct 2012 #3
great post my friend. rec hrmjustin Oct 2012 #4
K and R goclark Oct 2012 #5
That's a double edged sword Sugarcoated Oct 2012 #7
I believe the legal fights over voter suppression gives Obama an edge in Ohio as well. yellowcanine Oct 2012 #10
Backlash Backlash Backlash LiberalFighter Oct 2012 #25
Very good analysis ... thanks for posting n/t tweeternik Oct 2012 #6
I've been thinking we're in better shape than some may think. Sugarcoated Oct 2012 #8
+1. nt bemildred Oct 2012 #9
Early Voting Has Maintained Some of My Peace Of Mind JiminyJominy Oct 2012 #11
Ohio + Iowa OR Nevada = Game Over RedSpartan Oct 2012 #12
Just a dozen posts in this thread Maximumnegro Oct 2012 #13
Excellent, excellent post, MSMITH, and GallopingGhost Oct 2012 #14
Your second map is closest to current reality, which means Romney wins if he takes CO, NV, IA Azathoth Oct 2012 #15
Why? Sugarcoated Oct 2012 #17
Look at the second map. Romney wins even though we take OH and PA Azathoth Oct 2012 #19
Well, I just looked at Nevada and Iowa Sugarcoated Oct 2012 #20
The trend in Iowa is hard to figure out because there isn't much decent polling there Azathoth Oct 2012 #24
Rachel Maddow has done several stories on what a terrible mess the Republican party is in Nevada Sugarcoated Oct 2012 #26
I certainly hope so. n/t Azathoth Oct 2012 #31
You have zero bases for NV and IA going to Romney Maximumnegro Oct 2012 #27
I'm not saying they will tip, but I think it's suicide to pretend that they can't tip Azathoth Oct 2012 #30
Yeah, momentum might be on Romney's side MSMITH33156 Oct 2012 #28
The media loves a comeback story, good for their ratings. Sugarcoated Oct 2012 #29
This message was self-deleted by its author MSMITH33156 Oct 2012 #23
I never claimed that MSMITH33156 Oct 2012 #21
Sorry. Point taken n/t Azathoth Oct 2012 #22
I think OH and IA are considered solid blue garthranzz Oct 2012 #16
He'll take Nevada Sugarcoated Oct 2012 #18
Agreed, democrats have overperformed in federal races by 5+ points in Nevada lately ShadowLiberal Oct 2012 #34
If Obama wins Ohio and Iowa, he wins. RedSpartan Oct 2012 #32
Bump. n/t GallopingGhost Oct 2012 #33

Sugarcoated

(7,728 posts)
7. That's a double edged sword
Tue Oct 16, 2012, 01:25 PM
Oct 2012

I can say for a fact that it has motivated Obama voters here in SE Pennsylvania. Enthusiasm gap closed.

yellowcanine

(35,701 posts)
10. I believe the legal fights over voter suppression gives Obama an edge in Ohio as well.
Tue Oct 16, 2012, 01:57 PM
Oct 2012

And SCOTUS has just sided with Democrats on early voting in Ohio. So this doubles down on the backlash against voter suppression.

LiberalFighter

(51,054 posts)
25. Backlash Backlash Backlash
Tue Oct 16, 2012, 03:12 PM
Oct 2012

The consequences do matter. Why it is also smart to be guarded about strategies in campaigns. If they're smart strategies why announce them? If they are stupid strategies why announce them? Or if they are smart strategies and it is new when it is not? (Like Priebus announced last nite)

JiminyJominy

(340 posts)
11. Early Voting Has Maintained Some of My Peace Of Mind
Tue Oct 16, 2012, 02:06 PM
Oct 2012

in all this.

by own calculations Romney has to win 50.5 to 48.5 of all people voting from here on out in Ohio to win. right now he's still polling behind O by 3-4 points there so that provides me some sanity.

Maximumnegro

(1,134 posts)
13. Just a dozen posts in this thread
Tue Oct 16, 2012, 02:18 PM
Oct 2012

Very surprised. I though people liked facing reality. But I guess the scare(D) cats are going hang out in the Gallup and Dkos poll threads. Huh. Maybe I'll just keep posting to bump this. I am 100% confident in this president and I ampsyched for this debate.

Azathoth

(4,611 posts)
15. Your second map is closest to current reality, which means Romney wins if he takes CO, NV, IA
Tue Oct 16, 2012, 02:28 PM
Oct 2012

Which is a distinct possibility given the direction the race seems to be taking.

Right now, the only thing keeping us from being the underdog is Ohio. But the idea that Ohio and PA give us some kind of unbreachable firewall is self-deluding.

Sugarcoated

(7,728 posts)
17. Why?
Tue Oct 16, 2012, 02:51 PM
Oct 2012

Rmoney hasn't lead in one Pennsylvania poll, and held a consistent lead in Ohio, and that's after a weak debate showing. Are you a pessimistic person by nature?

Azathoth

(4,611 posts)
19. Look at the second map. Romney wins even though we take OH and PA
Tue Oct 16, 2012, 02:58 PM
Oct 2012

CO leans R thanks to the debate implosion. NV and IA are very light blue.

Sugarcoated

(7,728 posts)
20. Well, I just looked at Nevada and Iowa
Tue Oct 16, 2012, 03:02 PM
Oct 2012

and the polls are all consistently Obama ahead, to varying degrees. The trend is what I look at more than the average, because an outlier will skew the average.

Azathoth

(4,611 posts)
24. The trend in Iowa is hard to figure out because there isn't much decent polling there
Tue Oct 16, 2012, 03:10 PM
Oct 2012

Except for stupid stuff like Gravis. NV had been solidly blue but is now getting very tight. Some of that is to be expected this late in October, but the momentum is clearly on Romney's side right now.

Sugarcoated

(7,728 posts)
26. Rachel Maddow has done several stories on what a terrible mess the Republican party is in Nevada
Tue Oct 16, 2012, 03:16 PM
Oct 2012

I'm thinking if it's really close, Obama's great GOTV will squeak that one out for us. But aside from that, I'm not seeing the Rmoney momentum there at this point. It looks to me like Obama's lead is holding up, albeit greatly varying leads.

Maximumnegro

(1,134 posts)
27. You have zero bases for NV and IA going to Romney
Tue Oct 16, 2012, 03:17 PM
Oct 2012

Look it doesn't matter if Obama wins them by 10pts or .5pts, so pointing out colors does not compare to polling history and precedent.Unless you have some serious proof that those two states can to Romney despite the former then that is far from likely. Sorry. Florida, VA, CO, NC yes those are definitely toss ups based on polling throughout campaign and previous elections. NV, IA - especially considering early votes so far, No.

Azathoth

(4,611 posts)
30. I'm not saying they will tip, but I think it's suicide to pretend that they can't tip
Tue Oct 16, 2012, 03:29 PM
Oct 2012

Iowa went red in 2004. So did Nevada. These are not states with unbroken 50-year track records of turning blue.

MSMITH33156

(879 posts)
28. Yeah, momentum might be on Romney's side
Tue Oct 16, 2012, 03:21 PM
Oct 2012

but that will change tonight. Romney has the burden of continuing the momentum. It's much easier for Obama to simply not suck and change the narrative from "What was wrong with Obama?" We've had a week and a half of Obama bashing nationwide, and Romney hasn't pulled in front. That's actually a good sign, provided of course that Obama doesn't stink tonight.

I also feel pretty good about Nevada just because it seems that we get our people to the polls there. Obama and Reid both greatly outperformed their poll numbers there, in widely different elections (blue landslide versus red landslide).

Sugarcoated

(7,728 posts)
29. The media loves a comeback story, good for their ratings.
Tue Oct 16, 2012, 03:26 PM
Oct 2012

And I agree with you on Nevada, it's what I was trying to say but you said it better.

Response to Azathoth (Reply #19)

MSMITH33156

(879 posts)
21. I never claimed that
Tue Oct 16, 2012, 03:03 PM
Oct 2012

First, Pennsylvania is in the bag. When the other campaign is debating whether or not to even spend money in a place, they aren't winning it.

Second, I never said it was an unbreachable firewall. In fact, the specific scenario you are talking about is one where Obama loses FL and VA (which would be a bad day, those stats are roughly tied, even in right-leaning polls), win Ohio and then Romney would still have to clean sweep Colorado, Nevada and Iowa.

You kind of proved my point. The firewall is not coming from the swing states, it is coming from the blue states. To put it another way, in the scenario we are discussing, Romney could win FL, VA, NH, IA, and CO, and still lose the election if Obama wins OH and NV. Romney goes 5 for 7 and still loses. That was the point I was making. It's not a swing state firewall, it's a blue state firewall that is going to require Romney to run a gauntlet.

garthranzz

(1,330 posts)
16. I think OH and IA are considered solid blue
Tue Oct 16, 2012, 02:31 PM
Oct 2012

by now.

The swing states are VA, NC and FL. Not sure how the numbers run in NV and CO, but Obama should take at least one.

Assuming the machines aren't rigged.

Good analysis.

Sugarcoated

(7,728 posts)
18. He'll take Nevada
Tue Oct 16, 2012, 02:53 PM
Oct 2012

The Repukes there are a shambles, and remember how together his ground game has been there. If it's neck-in-neck, he'll win on the ground.

ShadowLiberal

(2,237 posts)
34. Agreed, democrats have overperformed in federal races by 5+ points in Nevada lately
Tue Oct 16, 2012, 08:08 PM
Oct 2012

Nevada was supposed to be a swing state in 2008, with Obama up by only around 5 points, Obama won it by 12.5 points

Reid was supposed to be a dead man walking against Sharron Angle as undecided voters jumped to her column in the last weeks, polls gave her a 3 to 4 point lead on average, but Reid won by 5 points.

Studies on this phenomenon have concluded that the reason the polls were so off is likely that a large number of Hispanic citizens who are only comfortable answering polls conducted in Spanish, who support democrats by a much heavier margin then regular Hispanics.

RedSpartan

(1,693 posts)
32. If Obama wins Ohio and Iowa, he wins.
Tue Oct 16, 2012, 03:53 PM
Oct 2012

Doesn't even need any other swing states. This is what keeps me positive.

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