Miami Debate Reveals Last Stand of McCarthyite Red-Baiting

[JackRiddler]

As far as the hard right wing is concerned, a foreign socialist has already run the country for eight years. They have already been mobilized for a long time, and are well past their peak.

But the same goes for the Cold War anti-communist liberal-to-conservative consensus.

IMPORTANT: When I say "anti-communist" I do not mean opposition to the actual states of the former Communist bloc. Anti-communism is a specific ideology of denunciation that since Truman (actually Wilson!) has been used to discipline the left in the West.

In the U.S., this ideology is now in radical decline. It has not reproduced itself. It is the brainwashing of the old, and they have more pressing problems. The young don't care about it. The hardcore warmongers realized this and switched to "terrorism" nearly 20 years ago.

So last night in Miami, especially if there is a Sanders-Trump general election, will represent the beginning of the end for anti-communist true belief as a force in American politics. If you think this way, then you have already been mobilized for decades.

Some of you think Castro is the devil for having withstood a 55-year U.S. attack on Cuba. But you have nothing or little to say about the U.S.-backed death squads who terrorized and who in many cases continue to terrorize the entire region, from Mexico through Central America to Colombia. Those are American tax dollars at work, from before Reagan all the way to Secretary Clinton's backing of the Honduras coup. We don't vote on the government in Cuba, we vote on how U.S. tax dollars are spent.

The young are not motivated by this crap, they don't remember this crap. It has zero salience for most of them. Insofar as a substantial minority of the young are informed and motivated, they look forward to peace and dealing with the issues that actually matter to their lives and to the future of humanity.

In the future Miami will not be threatened by communist hordes. It will almost certainly sink under the ocean, however. That is an issue to address!

[Armstead]

1. K&R

[olddots]

2. just what it is baiting by the red side simpletons

and their masters .

[JackRiddler]

7. It's funny how the meaning of red changed!

Republicans are Reds!!!

[Bernardo de La Paz]

41. The saying used to be "Better dead than red". . . nt

[artyteacher]

3. i think youll see people hating on commies...

For decades to come.

[JackRiddler]

4. Sure.

I think you will see their numbers continue to dwindle for decades to come.

[brush]

28. We'll see. The repugs will certainly use the commie/socialist negative on Sanders . . .

if he gets the nomination. Your point that it won't resonate with many young people may be true, but young people don't vote in the anywhere near the numbers that people who the commie/socialist negatives will resonate with do.

It may or may not work but they're certainly going to bring up the trip to Russia, the "self-avowed socialist" description, a clip from last night's debate when he didn't disavow praise for Castro, probably images of Red Square, the hammer and sickle and Lenin and Stalin will run in the background of the ads.

Oh they're gonna do it for sure to get out their vote, which isn't made up of young progressives at all.

[kenfrequed]

57. Feh

They have devalued the word completely over the last 20 years. Anything to the left of Bob Dole is considered communist these days.

[brush]

71. Maybe for millenials but not for older voters.

If Sanders gets the nomination you can be sure the repugs will use the commie/socialist angle.

[DefenseLawyer]

5. Yes you will. Really old people. n/t

[PowerToThePeople]

12. Only at freeperville.

[artyteacher]

13. you should her my friend's uncle...

He's about 50 and he laughs and goes on and on about Bernie being a commie.

[JackRiddler]

16. That's okay, I'm about 50 and I laugh about Bernie being a commie too!

Since he ain't no commie. But you have to actually know real commies to understand this.

[artyteacher]

21. i know hes not...

But people voting against home are gleefully calling him that.

[bigbrother05]

26. Just like folks calling Obama names gleefully voted against him

Fear of how racists, bigots, and morons vote won't determine who I support

[Dustlawyer]

50. Me too!

While there are many young people supporting Bernie, there is still diverse support for him in all age brackets. The meme that Bernie appeals only to youngsters is false. The trend of support may decline as you go up the age brackets, it is still substantial and growing!

[AgingAmerican]

20. Then the last few will die out

[BillZBubb]

6. I hope so, but FL is one place where it may still resonate.

Heck there is even one guy here on DU spouting that nonsense this AM.

[JackRiddler]

10. There's more than one on DU, but so what?

[Mufaddal]

8. HRC "evolved" into Better Dead Than Red mode last night

And it was pretty amusing to watch. Not nearly as amusing as watching so-called "liberals" turn around in the press and start defending the murderers, torturers, and rapists in the Contras, but still pretty amusing. Now I'm just waiting for Walsh or Marcotte to pen a piece about how Oscar Romero was a no-good commie who got what was coming.

[JackRiddler]

11. I called it!

There was a thread about what new lie will HRC introduce to attack Sanders, and my reply was that it would be to redbait.

Except Univision helpfully introduced it for her.

Nevertheless, they played "fair and balanced," sort of. I think the map of Miami under water is going to resonate a lot more than a young Bernie Sanders righteously denouncing the Reagan death squads in Central America.

[haikugal]

9. Thank you! K&R!

[Zorra]

14. Agent Mike notes your concern. A subpoena from House Un-American Activities Committee

will be forthcoming.

"Better off dead than red!"


Hard to believe the Clinton campaign has sunk so low that they have had to go back to the '50s to resurrect McCarthyism. In American politics, you know you've lost when you get so desperate you have to resort to McCarthyism to attack your opponents.

[JackRiddler]

15. They're doing worse than that...

They're going back to the eighties to resurrect Reagan death-squad politics.

Clinton's insane description of Castro described nothing about Cuba, and everything about 1980s El Salvador, the Contras... all the way down to her husband's Plan Colombia... and the Bush Mexico plan that she continued as secretary... and the Honduras coup, where the death squads are back and killing environmental activists.

[dreamnightwind]

59. Agreed, and that needs a lot more attention this election!

Bernie clearly signaled in last night's debate that he is willing to go there, it's a discussion that he wants to have. Music to my ears, I've been waiting for Democrats to make an issue of these things my whole adult llife.

It does not escape my notice that the one person willing to do so prefers to caucus with rather than claim membership of the Democratic Party, that doesn't speak well of the party.

[Fuddnik]

30. Funny thing is, the old CPUSA (commies) had about 6 members.

The rest were undercover FBI agents or informants.

Your tax dollars at work.

[JackRiddler]

17. THEY'RE BACK!!! COMMIES COMMIES COMMIES!

[bigtree]

18. the 'crap' is still happening in Cuba. The abuses and detentions are still occurring.

I think folks can be equally opposed to the U.S. death squads and still hold Castro completely responsible for his brutal dictatorship.

[JackRiddler]

23. Do you support the 55-year U.S. attack on Cuba?

We are presumably U.S. citizens, U.S. voters, U.S. taxpayers. We are responsible for U.S. policy, not Cuban policy. Our government launched a failed invasion of Cuba and maintained a 55-year blockade, causing great suffering for the people of the island. Besides being wrong, this obviously failed. Meanwhile, our government organized and backed regimes throughout Mesoamerica that were and are in every way far worse than Cuba. Hundreds of thousands dead in El Salvador, Guatemala, Colombia, Nicaragua (due to Somoza and then the CIA-Contras), and now Mexico. Given that horrific record, which makes Castro look quite humane by comparison, what is the U.S. government standing for harrassing Cuba? It should also be said that we live in today, not yesterday. Obama has finally changed the policy toward Cuba. Do you support the opening to Cuba, or would you prefer to go back to the Cold War atrocities?

[bigtree]

24. I think folks can be equally opposed to the U.S. death squads

...and still hold Castro completely responsible for his brutal dictatorship.

[JackRiddler]

25. What does this mean?

The "people" we are talking about are U.S. citizens, voters, taxpayers. We are the ones being addressed in this election. It is supposedly our government's policy that we can choose. What policy do you support? Did you support the 55-year blockade? Do you support the opening by Obama?

[bigtree]

27. NONE of that excuses Castro

...there isn't really an issue among us with Obama policies toward Cuba, or against U.S. government interventionist policies.

The issue here is Sanders' defense of Castro and how it rests with the American-Cuban community. Badgering me for a debate over U.S. policy isn't going to resolve any of that, so I decline.

[d_legendary1]

32. Hate to break it to ya but Cubans by and large vote Republican

in Florida. Ileana Ross-Leithnan, the Balart brothers, George W. Bush...they don't care about Democrats.

[JackRiddler]

36. Many of their children are breaking away from this tradition.

We can safely guess that among non-Republicans and especially those registered to vote as Democrats, the cartoonish anti-Castro stance of Univision and Clinton is no longer salient. They have other issues - real issues that actually relate to U.S. government policy.

Even in the community as a whole, polls suggest about half now support the Obama opening to Havana.

[d_legendary1]

53. You're right about their kids

their Cuba fight isn't their fight. But its the adults who still go to the polls. Hell, some of them are bused around from Domino Park in 8th street to the polls just to keep the Republicans in business. Miami is a crooked city. The Marlins (MLB team) got their stadium through chicanery despite a vote from the public that said no to the building of the stadium.

[JackRiddler]

56. True true but the key word in your post?

Republicans.

[d_legendary1]

58. For the older crowd yes. And that's thanks to

Radio Mambi and WQBA. The younger crowd is Democratic but seldom go to the polls. I was raised in Miami so I know a thing or two about Hispanics in the area. The ones that love Sanders can't vote for him because they're not Cuban or Puerto Rican. Those who can just aren't active in politics, which leaves the older crowd who does and they vote Republican. They're gonna vote for Rubio, not Sanders or Clinton.

[Wilms]

34. Bernie LOST my grandparents vote because of this.

Of course, they died in a different era...but I might switch my support for good 'ol, old-time, anti-communism.

[chknltl]

61. Was he defending Castro overall or a couple of his better works?

For example: Prior to the first Iraqi war the citizenry had wide access to schools, colleges, hospitals and better infrastructure. Theirs was one of political stability despite being under a dictator. Have I just praise Saddam overall or did I just point to some of the good he did for his citizenry?

Of course Saddam was a bad operator, a dictator, like Castro he had death squads.

Now fast forward a few years just after 9-11 and we find ourselves in the position as American citizens as either being with Bush or being with the terrorists. That is how I saw that old interview, Bernie was pointing out Cuba's medical systems and schooling. Cuba has some of the best trained doctors in the world, Castro had a hand in that.

Nowhere have I shown support for Castro's or Saddam's death squads, nor imo did Bernie. Last night, Bernie did not have the time to explain how regime change, the kind that Kissinger and the Republicans support, is the wrong way to go. He tried to do just that but the questioners could not see it's relevance to his 'supposed support' for Castro. I am sick of being told that I am 'with the terrorists' by politicians who want regime change...even when it is said by a Democrat. Bernie has never been 'with the terrorists' despite how others within our party might paint him.

[bigtree]

62. I'm thinking those advances occurred more in spite of them

...but you make compelling points.

I hope you'll listen along with me as Cuban-Americans who've experienced life under the regime hopefully weigh in in the coming days.

[mhatrw]

67. And who should we hold responsible for Pinochet's brutal dictatorship?

[Lizzie Poppet]

19. "I have here in my hand a list..."

[NCjack]

33. ... just passed to me by Sec. Clinton. It has on it the name of a certain

U.S. Senator from ..."

[AlbertCat]

46. 57 commies are currently in Sander's campaign!

[SDJay]

22. This Tactic

exposes what I think is one of HRC's biggest flaws - she's reactionary. I don't think that's a good quality for a POTUS. One of the many things I really like about President Obama is that I don't have to worry about him getting pissed off or feeling threatened - politically or otherwise - and doing something irrational in response. Can we say the same thing about HRC? Reactionaries tend to ignite forest fires and that concerns me.

[demosocialist]

29. +1

I completely agree I do not agree with all of Pres. Obama's policies, but I love that he is my President. One of the biggest reasons I love his Presidency is that I can trust the President behind the office. He does not wildly react but sticks to HIS principles and I have to respect that whether I agree with them all or not.

Viva La Pres. Obama

[daleanime]

31. K&R.....

[corkhead]

35. "hardcore warmongers realized this and switched to "terrorism" nearly 20 years ago."

nail, meet head.

[sarge43]

37. Division and diversion. Don't look here; look there

Ugly then, time hasn't approved it at all. Lived through that time and none of the memories are good.

I am appalled that a Democrat would dig up the corpse of that Frankenstein Monster and let it destroy again.

[George II]

38. I think some here should research "red baiting" and "McCarthyism".

[JackRiddler]

43. Yeah, it was much worse back when it was effective.

[firebrand80]

39. If Bernie is the nominee, that was just the tip of the iceberg nt

[Ikonoklast]

40. Goldwater Girl just returning to her roots.

Got a little nostalgic for the good 'ol days.

[Cheese Sandwich]

42. Well said!

[Uncle Joe]

44. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, JackRiddler.

[ThePhilosopher04]

45. It's gonna be fun to watch this line of attack backfire ...

younger voters don't give a damn and the older voters who do aren't voting for Bernie anyway. All they're going to do is harden the younger vote for Bernie. But I guess if you have nothing else, have at it.

[Trust Buster]

48. So Hillary not releasing transcripts to private speeches is an abomination but

a moderator confronting Sanders with his public comments praising two communist leaders in front of a Latino audience is not relevant, it's red baiting ? How passion can blind some into saying the silliest things.

[Luminous Animal]

49. If anyone wants to be more informed, I suggest reading Chomsky's Year 501.

It was published in 1993 but it is still relevant.

In pdf form

http://library.uniteddiversity.coop/More_Books_and_Reports/Noam_Chomsky-5_books.pdf

[polly7]

52. Thank you for this. nt.

[JackRiddler]

63. In fact, one of his best!

Read it all the way back then! Ack!

[Luminous Animal]

64. I reread some of the text often. For me, it is a necessary text.

[Coincidence]

51. Add to that our war on drugs, and the US may be the worst thing to hit South America since Spain /nt

[salinsky]

54. Is is not red-baiting to point out that in America in 2016 ...

... it is going to be damn near impossible for a candidate who is recorded praising communist dictators and self-identifies as a socialist to get elected POTUS.

There are simply way too many old, low-info voters for whom "The Evil Empire" and "The Red Menace" still resonates.

We are not there yet.

Not by a long shot.

[JackRiddler]

60. The worm has turned.

If this gets involved enough, we'll be talking instead about a candidate who is recorded not just praising but actually practicing the overthrow of governments in bloody wars and dirty covert actions, with the result that she has helped create new hell-holes on earth and generated terrorism - and that in the last few years! When has Hillary Clinton ever, ever, failed to cheerlead a new war? (Opposing it after it's over doesn't count by the way.)

I submit to you that plenty of the old anti-communist conservatives are SICK OF THE WAR MONGERING and care a lot less about Castro today than they did about Saddam, back when they were conned into that atrocity. They remember and they don't want new adventures. (Fool me once, shame on you...)

By comparison to that, I will be happy to see the issue of the Sandinistas as against the CIA's mass-murder operations brought back. It will have little effect on the election, but the effect will not be a net negative for Sanders!

[mhatrw]

66. "Are you now or have you ever been a card carrying McCarthyite?"

What percentage of those who would answer yes ever vote for any Democratic candidates?

[chknltl]

55. Is that old, (1986?) interview video available? +My thoughts.

I would like to hear more and in context. I am of the opinion that Bernie was denouncing our interfering in other nations affairs AND that going against Castro (is? was?) wrong because of Castro's populism among his own citizenry. I am of the further opinion that Bernie in that old interview pointed to Castro's national health-care system and education system, (especially of educating and exporting doctors), as support of his claim of populism within his citizenry.

Bernie's intent in that interview can be best brought to light if it could be played in context. I think Bernie wanted to explain it as such last night but did not have the time. If I am accurate in my thinking, Bernie has not shifted in viewpoint from then to now as to his thoughts on our being behind regime change and how it turns out for us. THIS would be a very important difference between Bernie and Hillary on how both see America's involvement on regime change.

For me this hearkens back to the years when the Bush Family Evil Empire was painting Saddam as a far bigger boogeyman than his own people saw him. Economically the Iraqi were not so bad off, especially when it comes to their schools, hospitals and infrastructure. We here in the U.S. were told that we were either with Bush or we were with the terrorists...remember that? Remember who supported and who did not support that war? When it comes to regime change if I a right, Bernie has not changed but per Hillary's response last night she has not changed either. I am fully sick of my politicians ginning up war against boogeymen-boogeymen the politicians create because they know that the citizenry won't go to war with them if the truth were known.

[Arazi]

72. Yes and it's excellent

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511461355

Enjoy

[mhatrw]

65. I love how they think pointing out that Sanders did not support Reagan's crack funded

"Freedom Fighters" enough will kill his campaign.



If you are informed about this, you support Sanders. If not, you don't care.

[Ivan Kaputski]

68. I noticed all the commie socialist screamers buying commie Chinese shit at Walmart.

[TBF]

69. The ironic part is that the right wing will use their red-baiting

against Madame Secretary just as quickly given the chance. It's not like they draw any distinction between Obama, Clinton and Sanders. But we know the distinctions. We know which policies help and/or hurt us. We are going to vote for the person who will best represent us because that is all we can do short of revolution.

Frankly as economic conditions and global warming get worse we are running out of time for peaceable solutions.

[JackRiddler]

70. I think it is an important opening.

After Tuesday Sanders should go ahead and present his foreign policy program - I can imagine it will be more relevant as we head to New York & California!

[TBF]

73. Absolutely