Why do people act like trashing Bernie will help us build a Democratic future?

[Tom Rinaldo]

Very foolish strategy if the goal for those involved stretches beyond just winning the Democratic nomination for Hillary.

[daleanime]

1. Because they have no Democratic future....

in mind?

[reformist2]

79. Most of them are obsessed with Hillary and the Clintons. I don't know why they think theyre so great

[dchill]

2. Because they are not interested in a Democratic future.

They only care about The One.

[JaneyVee]

3. Because he spent decades trashing the Democrats future?

[CorkySt.Clair]

20. And his supporters have spent months trashing HRC here

OP's like this are hilarious if for no other reason than the irony.

[Lizzie Poppet]

22. History doesn't just disagree with that...

...it's rolling on the floor laughing at it.

[The Second Stone]

34. Bingo

Sanders campaign is an attack on the Democratic Party and the coalition it represents. It is uncompromising in its desire to destroy that coalition and install the singular view of a Vermont socialist with those who remain.

[eridani]

91. 70% of Democrats support single payer. Now who's the real Democrat again? n/t

[The Second Stone]

98. The person who put single payer before the Congress in 1993? Hillary Clinton

I notice that you ignore that, and so does Sanders.

[eridani]

99. That is unmitigate horseehit. Clinton's proposal was crafted by insurers in secret meetings n/t

[jfern]

92. Trashing them by caucusing with them and supporting every Presidential nomine

for the last 25 years?

[noiretextatique]

95. This is the kind of post that really doesn't deserve a response

The poster is either ill-informed or dishonest.

[TDale313]

4. He (and we) had the fucking nerve

to actually say we can do better than this. We were supposed to get in line and support the chosen one. They're pissed cause we're pointing out how screwed up the system is and that their candidate has had a major role in getting us where we are.

[jwirr]

42. I see no reason I need to get in line until the Convention is

over. There is business at the Convention that we can influence with out votes for Bernie even if we cannot win. What she is asking us to do is to confirm her coronation before every one votes as if we have no real differences. That is hardly a democracy.

I'm in until the end.

[Fla Dem]

5. Because Bernie is only a convenient Democrat.

Last edited Fri Mar 18, 2016, 04:54 PM - Edit history (1)

Bernie will revert back to (I) once the primaries are over.

Even as he launched a campaign for the Democratic presidential nomination Thursday, Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) insisted he was not a Democrat.

"No, I am an independent who is going to be working with the —" Sanders told Seven Days Thursday afternoon, cutting himself off mid-sentence. "I am what I am, and I will have to deal with the state-by-state regulations. But I am what I am."

http://digital.vpr.net/post/how-will-bernie-sanders-officially-become-democrat#stream/0

He has no intention of helping the Democratic Party's future.

Although to be honest I see little Bernie bashing.

[rock]

8. Yep

Socialist-Democrat indeed! (sneer)

[djean111]

10. The party has no future if DINOs like DWS are kept in the party, kept in office.

Bernie will always stand for the values that the Democratic Party used to stand for.

A lot of "real Democrats" stand only for the "D". That's it. That's all. Like a sports team.

If Hillary's penchant for war and the TPP and fracking and lying and cluster bombs, to name a few of her favorites, is what being a Democrat stands for, then it looks like the definition, and the Party, have changed.

Not everyone will change with it, and I don't think you really want Bernie to "help" the party, you just want the money he raised, and the supporters he has, for Hillary. My opinion. I don't see Bernie "helping" the current Democratic Party move to the Third Way right, and that is where the party is headed.

[Fla Dem]

14. Your opinion. We'll see after the November elections.

I'd rather work inside the Dem Party to make change, rather than assaulting it from the outside. Bernie has never helped the Democratic party, perhaps if he had from the inside things would be different. Instead he just takes pot-shots from the outside.

Party of one, your table is ready.

[Armstead]

21. Totally wrong...He has long caucused with the Dems and supported them in many ways

[Fla Dem]

31. Yes I know he caucuses with them when it suits his agenda.

Has he ever campaigned for a Democrat? Fund raised for them? Supported local Democrats in Vermont? Seriously, you may be able to change my opinion of him if you can specifically show me where he has actually done something for the Democrats.

[Maedhros]

36. Thank God we have people like you, who put Party ahead of people

and are concerned more with labels than getting the country moving in the right direction.

Where would we be without you brave, brave souls?

[Fla Dem]

43. Oh for f sake. Your snark is BS worthy. nt

[Maedhros]

51. I find your attitude pretty damned disgusting.

Basing your decisions on whether the candidate puts the right letter after their name, rather than on whether the candidate's policies are sound.

More and more, the Democratic rank-and-file are posturing themselves as the political enemies of progressive policy.

[corkhead]

65. I have learned this cycle that there are Democrats™ and there are democrats.

That became very apparent when we had one run against the other this primary season.

[HumanityExperiment]

68. Agreed!

[Fla Dem]

66. I'm crushed.

[Maedhros]

71. Oh, I realize that you don't care.[n/t]

[marew]

53. +1! n/t

[Dawgs]

55. Yes, to all of your questions.

[djean111]

30. I daresay he votes with the Democrats more often than "Democrats" do.

More often than DWS and Nelson do, that's for sure.
He caucuses with them.
He is running as a Democrat because he did not want to split the party. Which he would have.
And with that, bye-bye!

[Fla Dem]

35. Yes he votes with Dems because their agenda is similar to his for the most part.

And I guess buh-bye to you too. Have a great day.

[noiretextatique]

97. He has the same agenda as Dems, according to you

But he had that I behind his name. You just made yourself seem foolish. Good job!

[noiretextatique]

96. Boom...hit right over tbis one's head eom

[hellofromreddit]

19. I am only a Bernie Democrat

Are you saying that I don't count? What's the 'purity threshold' where I do start to count?

[Fla Dem]

28. That's convoluted reasoning.

Said nothing about you. If you are in fact a registered Democrat, you are a Democrat that supports Bernie Sanders, who at least temporarily identifies with the Democratic party. Nothing wrong with him running under the Democratic banner. However, do you deny that Bernie is using the Democratic Party for his own convenience? That he will probably go back to being an IND after the elections? That my point. He has no future interest in the Democratic Party. I would hope that if Sen Sanders does not win the primary you will vote Democratic. If not, then....the proof is in the pudding.

And while there is no purity test for being a member of the Democratic party, we do live in a Democracy, vote for whom you want or not at all.

However, DU does suggest you support the Democratic nominee in order to be a member of good standing on DU.

Terms of Service

But when general election season begins, DU members must support Democratic nominees (EXCEPT in rare cases where a non-Democrat is most likely to defeat the conservative alternative, or where there is no possibility of splitting the liberal vote and inadvertently throwing the election to the conservative alternative).

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=termsofservice

[hellofromreddit]

41. I don't confirm or deny anything about Sanders

There is no current nominee, so I don't see why you felt it was necessary to threaten me with the TOS. Is threatening new members an important part of being a democrat?

As for me: I'm a democrat just to support his campaign. Is that sufficient or is it not?

[Mnpaul]

89. Never mind the Hillary supporters

they are angry that the Bernie supporters weren't purged after Super Tuesday 1 and 2.

Welcome to the board. You may want to tread lightly in your first 100 posts or so as to not run afoul of the MIRT team.

[Ed Suspicious]

29. Compromising your principles in favor of a corporate friendly agenda is the price of admission

to the neo-Democratic party.

[Maedhros]

37. Authoritarians gonna' supplicate.[n/t]

[Lizzie Poppet]

24. As will I.

And until it once again becomes a genuinely left-wing party, rather than a center-left alternative to the batshit-crazy GOP, I won't be coming back. I flipped my registration specifically to vote in my state's (closed) Democratic primary, even though as usual my state votes so late that my vote won't mean fuck-all.

[Lucinda]

46. That explains a lot. n/t

[Lizzie Poppet]

49. Cool.

?1430153051

[onecaliberal]

26. Maybe you should look at his record of DECADES voting WITH dems.

The fucking ACA would NOT have passed without his vote. Welcome to the ignore list.

[Fla Dem]

57. Well then I guess the Dems had some pretty awesome positions

if the sainted one has "DECADES voting WITH dems."

Sorry you won't see this response.

Luv ya!

[corkhead]

50. Why should he? Dems sure haven't done much for him

even though he has voted like one from the very beginning of is service in Congress.

Until both parties blow up and realign to actually represent the people of this country, anyone who wants to seriously run for President has to run as an R or a D, but you knew that.


I'm not a corporatist or a bankster. The ironically named "democratic" party does not seem to be the least bit interested in helping my future.

If it does turn out that he falls short, Sanders won't be the only one reverting to an (I) once the primaries are over.

[Odin2005]

90. Bernie is the only real Democrat in the race.

[GreatGazoo]

6. yes why? and why to the point of putting words in Obamas mouth?

Obama did not say "time for Bernie to stop" -- what Obama said was:

as Democrats move through this competitive primary process, we need to be mindful that our success in November in electing a Democratic president will depend on the commitment and ability of the Democratic Party to come together behind our nominee”

But that wasn't good enough for the self-appointed HRC campaign directors. Noooooooooo. And their twisting was so wrong that the WH via Earnest issued the correction.

[djean111]

7. Because they are only interested in a Third Way NeoCon future, is all I can hazard a guess at.

Or maybe their idea of " the future" only extends to Tuesday, November 8, 2016.
One of those.

[winter is coming]

9. They think that fear of Trump is all they need. n/t

[Triana]

11. They're only interested in winning. Now. Hadn't thought about tomorrow. Which..

...is really the epitome of this whole campaign, IMO.

Change things = Bernie
Stick with oligarchy and status quo = Hillary

There it is.

[calguy]

12. That's an odd point to make

especially since so many Bernie supporters have adopted a trash Hillary approach in a vain effort to further Bernie's cause.

Hating Hillary has gotten them nowhere so now you accuse Hillary supporters of trashing and burning??

Time to unite behind the party and defeat Trump. It's the only positive path foreword to further our shared goals.

[rhett o rick]

13. Authoritarians believe that we all are blind followers and if their leader wins, we will all bow

and acquiesce as they do. Their hubris will be their downfall. Winning the election isn't the end point of the movement. We will work beyond the election. Working to clean up the culture of corruption that is bought and paid for by Goldman-Sachs.

[yourpaljoey]

54. The fire has been lit. The people are waking. We will not go away.

[marew]

56. Right on! n/t

[redwitch]

83. Republicans fall in line.

Democrats fall in love. I have. With Bernie Sanders campaign.

[Dem2]

15. Copycat thread

auto-trash

[MaggieD]

16. I guess for the same reason his fans trash Hillary

But remember, Bernie is not a Democrat. And he has been trashing Democrats for 30 years. He is still trashing them in this campaign. It's a big reason he's losing.

[BainsBane]

17. Why do people act like trashing Hillary

Will hold up a Democratic future?

[gollygee]

18. Bashing either of them doesn't help build a Democratic future. N/t

[Maedhros]

39. Not true.

Correctly pointing out Hillary's corporate puppet strings will help the Party (hopefully) avoid infesting itself with more corporate puppets in the future.

[marew]

58. On target! n/t

[Maedhros]

64. It seems that when Republicans wallow in corporate cash, it's universally considered a bad thing.

When Hillary does it, however, it becomes a good thing. I'm still trying to understand how that works.

[marew]

72. If you figure it out

Please explain it to me!

[UglyGreed]

23. Bernie represented

what the Democratic used to stand for....as we see now times have indeed changed.

[Tarc]

25. There is little to no bashing of Bernie himself at the DU

I for one think he is a great guy. What goes on at the DU are critiques of some of his shortcomings (promising too much, inability to connect with persons of color, too singularly-focused on "big banks big banks big banks" arguments, and the like).

There are many condemnations, here at the DU and elsewhere, of some of Bernie's more atrocious followers and the things they say in support of their preferred candidate. Condemning them and their vicious, hate-filled rhetoric is not the same as attacking Bernie the man.

[BeyondGeography]

27. Bernie was doing great until yesterday, as far as I'm concerned

I'm not feeling this superdelegates play at all. Hillary has him beat by healthy margins on the PV and in pledged delegates. That's what determines the nominee. What is he thinking by even bringing superdelegates into the discussion?

[djean111]

33. Didn't Hillary crow about superdelegates being pledged to her before their states even voted?

Isn't she counting superdelegates right now, whose states have not yet voted?

[BeyondGeography]

40. Separate issue

I don't approve of that either (and if I were a hardcore Bernie supporter I also would be screaming at MSNBC and whatever other outlet posts supers as part of the overall delegate count).

The supers are a distraction. Betting on them for victory because of perceived electability (or whatever the argument is) is like saying electors will swing to me even though I lost their state because smart people know I'll be a better President.

[djean111]

44. Looks to me like sort of a draw, then. I don't like that they even exist, but why should Bernie

not go after them if Hillary can, and has? Noblesse oblige? You think she does not expect them to vote for her no matter what their states vote for?

Not a separate issue at all.

[BeyondGeography]

48. It's fine to go after them

Making them the cornerstone of your come-from-behind victory plan is a sad joke though, particularly when you're not only the insurgent, but a late-to-the-party insurgent at that. Not only is that not going to work, it makes him look foolish and unprincipled.

[djean111]

59. He is only running as a Democrat because he did not want to run as an Independent and

hurt the Democratic Party. It is becoming more and more obvious that, even though the DNC welcomed him - did you actually think Bernie FORCED the party to accept his run? - that the DNC was sure that Bernie would have a cute little run, Hillary would pretend to feint left, and then Bernie would drop out, ordering his supporters to support Hillary, and handing over his donations to Hillary. All those new voters, and all that new money - for Hillary!

That did not happen. That is not going to happen. And, what is kind of amusing - So much effort is made in demonizing Bernie and elevating Hillary that those who support Bernie have taken a closer look at Hillary's record - and in no way can they consider her a suitable substitute for Bernie. Hoist on their own petard, the DNC is. Arrrrrrr!

Bernie is neither foolish nor unprincipled. Unless, of course, that is the smear slapped on to anyone who dares challenge or not support Hillary, of course. And then - it is just sad that it is said.

Oh, and "insurgent"? Bernie has had the same ideals and principles all of his life. Those ideas and principles used to be the Democratic Platform. So fucking pathetic that being an FDR Democrat is labelled "insurgent", just for the sake of a smear.

[BeyondGeography]

67. Every campaign has a candidate who is labelled an insurgent, why are you getting excited about that?

[djean111]

69. I am not excited, my hair is not on fire, I am just trying to calmly explain how I feel about

things. Sorry.

And, again, it is so sad that Bernie's principles are so different than Hillary's, and the current DNC, that he would be considered an insurgent. Or is he insurgent merely because he dared to run? Never mind. Bye.

[BeyondGeography]

70. It's a badge of honor really

I always read it as less about principle than not the establishment's choice. In Bernie's case it's both. Obama was the insurgent in 2008, even though his principles weren't that much different than Hillary's.

Have a good day.

[yodermon]

94. Seems strange to me too. Perhaps he's telegraphing that he thinks she'll be indicted

at which point the he would have an argument for the supers to change their votes.

[LanternWaste]

32. Are you simply inferring that sentiment?

Are you simply inferring that sentiment, or was it actually stated as a mechanism for helping build a "Democratic future"?

If the latter, I'd love to see a link; if the former, "very foolish..."

[still_one]

38. some people, not all

[PufPuf23]

45. Some people by nature feel good being internet commandos and bullies.

To them it is more important to "win" than to look at the substance of issues.

Some people are more equal than others.

Hooray for neo-liberalism.

[Lucinda]

47. Who is trashing Bernie? n/t

[demwing]

52. Because they have nothing else...

[blm]

60. Why? Shortsightedness.

You never saw Kerry supporters in 2004 taking unwarranted potshots once we believed Kerry would be the nominee.

OTOH - This place, imo, is crawling with trolls hoping to keep the divides permanent.

[Tom Rinaldo]

78. I agree about trolls. They have their jobs to do and this is their time to do it

For those who are not trolls however, I agree with the other part of your comment: shortsightedness - except this time shortsightedness could have fallout lasting for decades if millennials get tuned off to electoral activism.

[Fawke Em]

61. It's not and polling is telling us that many of his supporters won't vote for Hillary.

Which is what is really ticking her lapdogs off. She may win the nomination, but won't win the war because people have decided to simply not fall in line this time.

They don't get that people are SICK and TIRED of the establishment and would rather watch it burn (no pun intended) faster under Trump than frog-in-boiling-water under Clinton. Rock bottom and all.

I can see it in the polling, on social media and in talking with people. Clinton isn't well loved outside of about half of the Democratic Party. Her fans don't seem to realize that Independents vote.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

62. Bernie is one of the icons of the Big Lie. Destroying that lie will help.

The Big Lie is that politics is easy, that the reasons that the Democrats haven't already done many of the things Sanders would like, and aren't promising them, is that they're lazy, cowardly, DINOs, closet-right-wingers, corporatists, sell-outs, etc, and that nominating far-left leaders will just make that opposition magically go away and let us all have unicorns and ponies by the magic of "Leadership" and "The bully pulpit".

The truth is that the main reason that the Democrats haven't already done many of the things Sanders would like, and aren't promising them, is that the Republicans have enough votes to stop them, and the reason they're not campaigning on that platform is that doing so would lose more votes than it would gain.

Sanders is hurting the Democratic party badly by raising unrealistic expectations, and making anyone who doesn't fulfil them look bad.

The think that would most debunk his platform would, obviously, be to let him run the country for four years and point out just how little he accomplished. But, unfortunately, Donald Trump is in the way; nominating Sanders wouldn't ensure a Trump presidency (just as nominating Clinton won't, unfortunately, guarantee safety from one), but it would make it much more likely.

Since we can't do that, all we can do is verbally debunk Sanders' slanders and try to keep him from turning people away from the Democratic party and helping the Republicans as best we can.

[eridani]

93. This attitude is responsible for the disasters of 2010 and 2014

President Dwight Eisenhower, Republican, uttered these words on November 8, 1954:

"Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group, of course, that believes that you can do these things. Among them are a few Texas oil millionaires, and an occasional politician or businessman from other areas. Their number is negligible and they are stupid."

Did the stupids give up? No, they did not, not even after the 1964 shellacking. They had a vision (a totally fucked up one of course), and they kept fighting for it. The result is that now Republicans do have the votes to stop legislation that benefits the population, and even a Democratic president proposed cuts to Social Security.

Sanders is doing nothing but advocating for the New Deal and the Great Society values that Democrats used to stand for. Those are now "unrealistic expectations." As if Clinton has any more of a chance of getting a public option added to ACA than Sanders has of getting single payer.

[RedCappedBandit]

63. Because third wayers etc don't want liberals in the party. Nt

[RobinA]

73. For The Same Reason

people act like trashing Hillary will build a Democratic future? It's not productive no matter who is doing it.

[SheilaT]

74. I have never seen such rude, scornful disdain of

anyone as I've seen of Bernie and his supporters here on DU. For the very first time since I joined in 2002 I have put members on Ignore, because certain was are so completely out of control.

Not that the Bernie supporters are all sweetness and light. Too many of them are completely rude also.

[Tom Rinaldo]

75. I have been absent the last few hours from this thread due to my work schedule

I didn't have time before I left to write to write a full OP, and then I thought it might open this up to more discussion if I left it open to others to add their thoughts rather than load it up with mine. But here is the core of what was on my mind when I started this:

I am a boomer. I will feel like I've done real well if I get to participate in 5 more Presidential election cycles - as in twenty more years. For someone who is 26 right now rather than my 66, that person can likely remain politically active at least three times longer than I. Voters under 30 have broken very strongly for Bernie Sanders during this election cycle. They, far more than I, represent the future of this nation. There is incredible enthusiasm for Bernie Sanders among millennials. Bernie most likely will not be the Democratic nominee this year, but he has inspired hundreds of thousands of younger Americans to become politically involved - many for the first time. To trash what Bernie believes in is to trash what they believe in. To broad brush trash Bernie supporters is to broad brush trash a generation of younger voters who mostly support Bernie

Most people here, I know, try not to trash anyone. This is an odd election year, with minorities in general breaking strongly for one candidate, and younger people for another. Together those groups were the heart of the Obama coalition. That is a coalition we will all need to rally moving forward.

Typically it is the camp of a candidate who feels confident that they will win, that bends over backwards to make peace offerings to the opposing camp in order to promote unity. With the generational divide we face this election cycle, unity or the lack of it has some serious long term implication for the Democratic side of the political equation - whether we are taking about registered Democrats or Independent voters who now identify with the Left.

[PatrickforO]

77. Here's the thing about trashing Bernie.

He represents at least half of the Democratic base and lots of Independents in terms of what he is advocating.

Those positions aren't going away anytime soon, either, whatever may happen in this election. People want single payer healthcare. I mean, wouldn't it be NICE to be able to go to the doctor when you're sick and just be treated instead of being routed through the finance department first?

And free college? We're not giving anything away there, either. Businesses NEED people with degrees for higher level jobs, and right now, according to the US Census, the USA is SHORT about 120,000 new Bachelor's Degrees to replace people leaving the labor force each year. We need MORE kids to go to college, not to put college out of reach of more kids. And the average student debt load? It's over $31,000 now. These are OUR kids, guys. Why are we allowing them to start their career lives as debt slaves?

Corruption, the climate, old age pensions - Bernie's all about caring about human need over human greed, and people are starting to hate the way the system is willing to allow people to die or live in misery for the sake of maximizing profit. Profit over people is unsustainable, period.

The system we have now cannot last and establishment types who believe it can have their heads in the sand.

[marions ghost]

81. He represents half the base and lots of Independents...

Hillary supporters seem not to care about that undeniable fact.

Somebody on their side of the fence should be able to see it?

[Live and Learn]

85. A few do and are trying to play nice now but I think it is a dollar short and a day late. nt

[marions ghost]

86. yeah half-hearted Kumbayah's not working

----when you otherize others so much, it's a hard thing to do...

Condescension backfires.

[PatrickforO]

87. It may not be that. Politicians and their staffers have been ignoring what

the people want for decades now. I believe they are misjudging the current and growing mood of disgust with the capitalist establishment.

[Uncle Joe]

80. They don't truly believe that Hillary has the nomination locked up and it kind of meshes with

the short term thinking so endemic of Wall Street.

Thanks for the thread, Tom Rinaldo.

[Locrian]

84. blind spot

Authoritarians have a blind spot when it comes to their chosen one. So they cannot comprehend that they (the chosen one) would not reciprocate their devotion.

So it makes it easy for candidates that promise one thing even when demonstrated to be part of the elite.

[Warren DeMontague]

88. very few people here are actively working in GDP to "help us build a Democratic future", I think

Grudge matches, working out personal/emotional trauma and issues, long time score-settlin' and generalized pissin' and moanin', on the other hand.