You want to talk "Unity"? Okay, let's talk about unity

[Scootaloo]

Hi there, everyone, and welcome to Scootaloo's first thread of the general election. First off, i want to give a big shout-out to Skinner. In the time-honored (as of one month) tradition of the democratic party, he has decided that since so many of you could not follow rules or meet community standards, he ought to change the rules and lower those standards until you can clear the bar. Round of applause for Skinner folks.

Pokes aside, I really am glad that so many of you are available to engage now, because, as you might have noticed, I'm here to talk about something serious; the general election and how we're gonna get through it with our collective asses intact. What's that, coming to the Primaries forum to talk about the general, whaaaaat. Yeah, see, I've been doing some thinking. And I've come to accept that no, Bernie sanders will almost certainly not be the nominee. Now before anyone throws confetti, I think he still does have a shot. I'm an adherent of Miracle Max, "There's a big difference between mostly dead and all dead" after all. I will be putting in all I can to turn that around. But Scootaloo ain't no fool, and i know the chances are pretty damn slim at this point. So rather than plod along all naive and fall on my face at the convention, I've decided to plan ahead.

Let's all be honest about what we face here. Donald Trump is the likely GOP nominee. And while we poo-poo him to make ourselves feel good, we ALL recognize that Republican voters love the guy. They're fired up for Trump. That's bad enough, but wait there's more! We're coming off a two-term Democratic administration. Hopefully we're all savvy enough to know what an uphill struggle it is to get another same-party victory after a two-termer. Americans have an unfortunate habit of partisan burnout and middle-ground fallacy, where they believe "well, party A had eight years, it's time to see what party B can do." it's not impossible to overcome - Bush beat Dukakais... but... Bush vs. Dukakais is a definite outlier. And third problem... our nominee is most likely Hillary Clinton. I know, I know, you just love her. But the republicans do not. Even the people who fucking haaaaate Trump over on team Rocket are going to come out just to put a shoe in her mouth in November. She's more of a Republican motivator than any three of their clown car candidates put together.

So that's three big problems right there. And you're right. You guys are absolutely right, if we don't pull together as a unit, losing is a certainty. And I dunno about you, but losing is bad enough, but losing to that is downright terrifying.

But you've got another problem. Now, my Hillary-supporting frienemies, it seems that even though you are celebrating Tuesday's turn of events, some of you are starting to notice a problem of your own. Quite a disheartening problem. I recognize a little thread of wailing despair curling and coiling through your posts and your jeers and your demands for loyalty. Especially your demands for loyalty. You've come to a pretty hideous, awful realization yourself. One that frightens you. Terrifies, even. keeps you awake at night, clutching your Bill Clinton-print comfort pillow and leaving the oven light on as you contemplate your future within its carbon-crusted maw.

YOU NEED US TO WIN

I was just talking about how fired-up Republicans are to take on Clinton. You know who else isn't a big fan of Hillary Clinton? Independent voters and about 36% of the Democratic base. Both of these groups are essential to any chance of a Democratic victory in November. I know all of you realize that, and i know it must be very uncomfortable, after spending lal these months informing us of how no, you don't need us, that we're worthless, that we're collectively the worst human beings - or in some cases, subhumans - you can imagine. You've insisted that we're gingham-clad white supremacists who want handouts without looking up from our iphones who have the intelligence and attention span of your average Irish setter, and all of our mothers, sisters, wives, and daughters are hell-bound gender-traitors chasing after our dicks.

And now you gotta figure out how to get us on board. Yeek!

So far the major strategy for this seems to be threats, harassment, and demands. Declarations that we better get on the Clinton Boat OR ELSE. Pronouncements that if Trump wins, it's all OUR fault. Demands for cut palms, trade in firstborns, and dire blood oaths under a full moon, or what-the-hell-have you. And I hate to point out the obvious guys, but it's not working so well, is it? if you actually want us on board with Clinton, you're doing a fine job of fucking it up. You know all that stuff you rightly condemn some Sanders supporters doing to black voters? Why on earth do you think it's any better, or any more effective, when you do the same thing to the left?

The problem is, you're not really showing any desire for unity there. It's not that you want us all to come together and work forward. You want Independents and Sanders supporters to knuckle under, subsume ourselves, and just go along with whatever the hell you want, no questions allowed. You don't want unity, when you pull the "JOIN US OR ELSE, RESISTANCE IS FUTILE" ploy. You clearly want dominance, subjugation, obeisance. You're domineering, you're sneering, you're entitled, you're bullying, and the cat-herd of the left collectively lifts its tail to show you its asshole and trots off.

If you want unity - actual unity, the sort that can actually put us towards something... you're going to have to understand that we have a say on what's going on. We have an essential say in what's going on, because again, without us, you're up shit creek.
"But.. so are you!" you cry. well, yes. yes we would be. But let me share with you a line from a favorite poem of mine, Rudyard Kipling's "A Pict Song:"

We shall be slaves just the same?
Yes, we have always been slaves

For the left, the difference between Trump and Clinton - as she stands now - is a difference between having a boot on your face and having a soccer cleat on your face. yeah there's a noticeable difference, but someone's still kicking you in the face. This is why we've been pulling hard for Sanders, because as far as we can tell, he has little interest in kicking us in the face.

Also while I do not share this particular sentiment, there's the notion out there that four years of Trump followed by Anybody Else™ will be more livable than eight years of Clinton followed by an inevitable republican. I don't buy it because it presumes America would be smart enough to dump Trump in 2020, and I voted in 2004. Like I said, Scootaloo ain't no fool.

So here we are. You need us. There's no question whatsoever to that fact, you fucking need us. Where we're having a problem is how you get us. because harassment and intimidation ain't going to do it. if you want us on board, and I know you do, well... Unity involves give and take. if we take Clinton as our nominee, what do we get in turn, you see?

To get us, you must first get us

So, what appeals to sanders supporters? I'm not sure I've ever seen any of you ask this before, except maybe as a rhetorical device to lead to some anti-sanders snark "THEY WANT FREE STUFF!" or "THEY HATE WIMMINS!" or the like. I'm going to assume that this is mostly Silly Season fluff, and that in your hearts, you actually know better than this. Show of hands, before April 30, 2015, how many of you were as dead-set against single-payer as you are now? No hands. same thing, before April 30, 2015, how many of you would have thought public funding for public colleges is an abominable idea? Again, I'm betting no one has their hands up. How many of you think Obama is a clueless shithead and that John Kerry can't do shit for fuck right? What a surprise, no hands.

No, we don't want "free stuff," we want public investment into things that the American people fucking need and deserve to live their lives the best they can.

No, we're not pacifists, we just realize that acting like the Lord and Master of the World causes more problems than it can ever solve.

No, we are certainly not opposed to social Justice at all, but we are opposed to opportunists with no plans to address social justice issues using it as a smokescreen to block other issues. "But Will That End Racism," indeed, mrs. Clinton.

No, we do not "hate the rich," but we do think that the gratuitous handouts our society gives the rich are unfair and even very damaging to the well-being of our people.

No, the youth vote is not "lazy," they simply see a political system that has no interest in them or their issues, but will happily take their votes anyway while still denying those issues have importance

No, we don't want "handouts," but we want a wage guaranteeing that even the bottom rung of employment can afford a place to live, food to eat, and have some set aside for a rainy day beside.

No, we don't want to drag out the guillotine in our revolution, but we do want the overwhelming influence of money in our system drawn to a close - when the chair of the Democratic Party is defending loan sharks, even YOU have to admit there's a problem.

So on and so on. Sanders supporters are at the core, motivated by empathy and an interest in the future. It sounds trite, but it's true. I support Sanders because all my life I've been watching people get fucked by a rigged economic system. Family, friends, neighbors, motherfuckers I never even met. All strapped to the machine, getting fucked by it. Sometimes to death. Poverty KILLS PEOPLE in this country, ladies and gentlemen. I find that completely untenable. I see that just to have a chance of unstrapping this machine from themselves, people have to put themselves even deeper into debt to get an education that is still very far from a guarantee of their future. I see - I've lived in - communities that are literally falling apart at the seams, because big franchises and box stores get tax break after tax break, sucking the town or city dry, leaving its people stripped and its infrastructure rotting. I look at the state of the world - its wars, its climate, its trends... and while I realize a US president can't change it all, I've supported Sanders because I think he's a good step on the right path to address - or at least properly prepare for - those issues.

I support Sanders because I see a country that is falling the fuck apart, and he's the only person actually talking hammer and nails instead of scotch tape and best wishes. Maybe other sanders supporters have different notions, or lists, but that's mine.

In order to win over Sanders supporters - Democrats and independents - you gotta offer what they want. We don't come when you call, i'm sorry.

Terms and conditions

So. We all want to kick Trump's sorry orange ass and leave him talking about how he eats the best dirt, the best, right? we agree that this only has a chance of happening if we're all together, right/ And now, hopefully, we understand that the only way we can all pull together is if an honest effort is made to bring us in, to win the votes here on the 'other side" of the party, and appeal to independents. And we now know that "But... TRUMP BOOGA BOOGA BOO!" doesn't cut it, and the appeal must be a positive one, a selling point, a concession to the people being wooed.

So, what concessions? I can't speak for everyone over here in Sandersnavia but I've got a few ideas. These are things Clinton needs to do - or should do - in order to appeal to us, to make an honest effort to bring us in.

The Non-Negotiables

This is the important stuff. the big sellers. Things clinton really can't afford to cast aside and ignore. At least, by my reckoning. I will overcome my skepticism of her on these; if she carries such issues into her GE campaign, i will give her the benefit of hte doubt on them through her first term. However, I will hold her to it just the same. These are all importnt for not just bringing Sanders Democrats and Independents in, but also preserving and expanding our party.

• Dedication to Single-Payer in her first term: This is the big one. This is the grand prize, this is the big fucking selling point for Sanders supporters. Without it, there's little chance of anything happening. mrs. Clinton went to bat for serious healthcare reform in the 90's, and Sen. Sanders had her back then. She needs to have his now. The democratic party has been gnashing at the bit for single-payer for over a decade now, and thanks to president Obama, the powder is dry and primed. We're ready. Sec. Clinton needs to not only promise that she will put her all into forwarding single-payer, but make honest, visible effort on that front on her first term. She DOES NOT have to achieve it in her first term, no one here thinks she's a wizard or anything. but she needs to put the work in. bend some ears, break some arms, Johnson-level stuff. Canada has public health care. Mexico has public health care. Fucking broke-as-shit Cuba and Jamaica have universal health care. Sec. Clinton needs to drop her "Never, Ever, Ever!" campaign rhetoric, and get on board with the hemisphere.

• Make good on the primary season's social justice plays: Remember what I was saying about how we have a problem with people faking concern for social justice to cover up and obfuscate other issues? Specifically cited Clinton's "But Will That end Racism" quip? I want her to prove me wrong. I want her to get up there and break her own skinny white ass to bring all the stuff she and her supporters have been talking to reality. Again I don't expect some harry Potter stuff, but if she's just gonna leave that rhetoric in the dirt after the primaries are over, she ain't worth the words it takes to tell her what to do with herself and with what. I also want her to add Sanders' advocacy for First Americans to her platform. He's absolutely on the right path there, and she needs to scoop it up and run with it if she's the nominee.

• Stay on President Obama's foreign policy trajectory, and retain John Kerry as Secretary of State: I'm going to be very blunt with you, Clinton supporters; Clinton's record on foreign policy fucking terrifies me. Legitimately frightens me. I have seen birds of prey that are less hawkish than sec. Clinton. On the other hand, while I may not always agree with president Obama's foreign policy decisions, I acknowledge that mostly it's been good, with some major steps in the right direction. And I also recognize that Sec. Kerry is a big part of those good steps. I Want good relations with Cuba. I want thawed relations with Iran. I want diplomacy in Syria. I want all these things so much that if I could I would give Obama a 3rd term just because i think he can make them happen. i do not expect a President Clinton to be hands-off on foreign policy. Of course not, she'd be the president. But I do need her to stay on President Obama's current trajectory, including major staffing.

• Replace Debbie Wasserman-Schultz as DNC chair: All the double-dealings and underhanded shit from this person during the campaign aside, there remains the fact that she's been bad for our party. we've lost entire states under her, while she openly backs and helps republicans in her own. More than anyone, she has apparently worked hard ot push democrats away from their party with cockamamie shit like her sudden finance rules changes, her support for payday lenders, the lot of it. I honestly think that even Rince Priebus would be a better DNC chair than Wasserman-Schultz. I don't give a good shit who is tagged to replace her. bring Dean back, hell, as compromised as he is with lobbyists, he at least did the fucking work, got Democrats elected, made the west coast remember that they're still welcome in the party. Just have a quiet little meetign with Debbie, tell her "thanks for your service," give her a fruit basket and a slap on the back, and replace her with Teddy Ruxpin or something. Just... go!

• Pick a running mate to the left of herself: and I don't mean like, half a baby step to the left. I want someone solid on this ticket, someone I know is on my side. And before you say it, no. not Sanders. I wouldn't object to a Clinton / Sanders ticket per se, but if he's not going to be president, I want him busting his skinny white ass in the Senate. Maybe someone off of his campaign; How do we all feel about a Clinton / Turner ticket? Heck, I think i'd settle for O'Malley, honestly, just so long as it's not another Clintocentric inner circle person. And for god's sake, no fucking Lieberman-types!

Some Other Stuff

Those were the big-ticket items I have to see, things that are essential to winning over people supporting Bernie. They're reasons WHY we support Bernie, after all. What follows here are some good ideas that would cement me with Clinton, but that I kind of don't expect.

• Push for changing the primary schedules for the party: We all agree that the current system is simply non-representative. Focus on primaries: caucuses are at once super-democratic, and undemocratic; everyone there gets a say, but only people who can show up get a say - primaries are broader and get more voters involved. Stand for ease of access for voters; same-day registration builds us and lets people who woudl vote with the party know that their input is welcome.

• Take up Sanders' college tuition plan. Yes, this is in the "other stuff" bin primarily because, well to be fair it's maybe his shakiest idea. it's a good idea, and it's a workable idea, but it's hardly a perfect one, and if I have to choose, i'd rather see universal healthcare come first. Still, this is a big motivator for young voters, and Clinton would do well to pick it up, or at least work parts of it into her own plan. Mind her plan isn't terrible by any means - it's just not quite good enough. Let's have a peanut-butter meets chocolate thing on this issue, shall we?

• real action on climate change. The most important of all issues to me, and it's in the "if you have time" bin... because to be painfully honest, I think it's too late and I doubt the president,whoever they are, can actually do much about it. But some honest effort and motion on it would be appreciated, rather than just empty gesture.

There are mot, but yeah, it's kind of a grab bag.

Blackmail!

Right now i'll bet a lot of Clinton supporters are back on their heels on all this. "How DARE you make demands! You think you can set conditions?!" Yes. Actually I do. Well, not me personally, i'm just one guy speaking his mind, frankly. But yes, Sanders supporters do get to call terms if we're going to sign up for the Clinton ship. because you need us. You need us bad. And in all fairness, what i'm asking - and they're things i think most of my fellows woudl agree with - are all good things. They're not there to humiliate or denigrate or hurt anyone. I want our party to win, but more importantly I want it to win well. I want it to have focus, I want it to make achievement. I'm sick of 'Vote democrat; we're not republicans!" There's nothing to this list that any Clinton supporter can seriously sit down and go "Ew, fuck no, what an awful idea."

If you want to call it blackmail, by all means, break a leg. But what it is, is us helping you, to help everyone. You want unity, we will want unity, and this is the sort of thing it takes. Clinton is simply not going to win the general election without picking up several of Sanders' planks and adding them to her own platform. She needs to do this, and she need to do it seriously, in order to have her best shot at retaining the people currently backing sanders.

To those of you who would rather sneer and punch down, well. Go for it I guess. You've got a few months of primary campaigning left. maybe less, if your candidate does as well as you seem to expect. After that's all done, you're right back here and facing the real problem if "Bernie or Bust" voters. I would suggest that, instead of the scoffing and threats, you start talking serious about what you say you want - unity. Give some real thought about what that takes.

At any rate. I think I'm done with primary season on DU. I'm tired. I'm sick of begin angry and getting hated on in turn. See you all at the movies.

[JaneyVee]

1. A "unity" thread filled with threats and ultimatums.

Riiiiiight.

[Jackie Wilson Said]

58. It is sick, sad, pathetic and it enrages me.

[JaneyVee]

64. Dont let it get you too enraged. Its just pixels.

Not the real word, just a microcosm of extremes.

[Jackie Wilson Said]

68. Unless it translates to the election and Hillary is the nominee and loses because

certain people wanted to take their ball and go home.

[Scootaloo]

96. I'm saying, let's play ball.

[SCantiGOP]

138. Thanks to the Ignore button

I won't have to read this kind of tripe again.
Vote for whomever you want; if it's a vote for Trump (either directly, or indirectly by not voting for the Dem candidate) I hope you are happy with the consequences.

[Scootaloo]

140. Do what you gotta do, man

[Fawke Em]

316. No. The fault is all yours.

We've been trying to tell you for MONTHS that Hillary is a horribly flawed candidate who will struggle in the general election, but you're failing to listen.

Your vote for her is the vote for Trump.

[SCantiGOP]

325. Thanks for the condescending lecture

You folks excel at that.

[Fawke Em]

334. Y'all are the masters.

Thanks for the high praise.

I've certainly earned my degree.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

172. They'll miss the ball just like they missed the point. nt

[mariawr]

217. All stops were pulled out for Clinton...best campaign money can buy..

Bought media sites, so called journalists and broadcast stations to push lies and innuendo, all to hide what a lousy candidate she turns out to be. Ignore Luntz's focus group in Miami at your own peril. There are a LOT of people who don't want Trump OR Clinton. If Sanders were to go ahead and run anyway in the GE, he would still have a source for funding and could win. There are republicans and Indys who would vote for Sanders...not so much for Clinton.

I see a split of the progressive wing of the party from the entitled DLC wing in the very near future. The Democrstic Party simply does not represent them anymore.

[mariawr]

222. Scoot, they are trying not to hear you. Hands on ears, going lalala. nt

[Fawke Em]

315. Yeah, well, it is what it is.

I don't expect Clinton to do ANY of that, so I don't expect she'll be earning the votes of Millennials, progressive Independents and 36 percent of the Democratic Party.

Not that any of this matters. She's got the NSA after her, now, and that's not something I'd wish on my worst enemy. An FBI investigation was bad enough, but the NSA? Whew.

[appal_jack]

130. Waaaah! Waaaah! Boo fucking hooo!

Why won't the proles kiss Hillary's crown and LIKE it?

How dare they have opinions of their own?

Right out the gate, you make the case against unity (at this juncture in time at least) quite well. Thanks.

-app

[JaneyVee]

145. Are you ok?

[appal_jack]

153. Better than ever, thanks. I hope you are doing well, too.

Our country? Not so much.

I still love America, and try to work toward its stated ideals. Which, by the way, include a distinct absence of stratified wealth, political dynasties, and/or royal families...

-app

[Kelvin Mace]

146. So, pretty much what we have been getting from the HRC camp

24x7

[Triana]

208. Actually it is a thread asking for understanding and respect prior to demands of "unity"

And you just flipped the big finger at the idea.

No. You don't get something for nothing. Even when the spectre of Trumpenstein looms on the political horizon. It just doesn't work that way.

[Sheepshank]

234. Unity thread? My ass

There is history and frankly the recent past of rude, name calling, dismissive, nasty, hyperbolic, pissing on so many good DUers retorts, isn't yet a distant enough memory.

You got it perfectly right, a thread with threats and ultimatums isn't my idea of anything more than an acknowledgement than the op knows they have been acting in a piss poor manner for too long, and the ultimatums are a defensive attempt at cover up.

[angrychair]

297. What I end up doing is my business

I lived through 8 years of bush, so worst case, I can get by if it's tRump or Cruz. I live in a blue state that will always be blue and red states cannot get anymore red. Gerrymandered House seats can hardly get more fixed than they are now. Realistically, Teapublicans have about as many Governorships and state legislatures as they are going to get. Could it be worse, sure, voters in those states will just have to decide if they care enough to change things in their states.
I live in a blue state, it's EVs will always go to the Democratic candidate, regardless of my vote.
No different when I lived in Texas, no matter how I voted, Texas was red and their EV we're going to the teapublican.
War? 3 of 4 remaining viable candidates are guaranteed to drag us into global conflict. Clinton is no less a hawk than the two teapublicans. So, for me, perpetual war and conflict with them at the helm is a foregone conclusion. My only small relief is that me and my children are medically precluded from service unless the situation becomes extremely tenuous. Others children won't be as lucky.

So, I'll vote how I vote, down ticket Democrats have my vote, Sanders Democrats have my vote. Democrats have my vote.

[Lil Missy]

2. demands and ultimatums

When your side loses, you're not in a position to bargain. The winner calls the shots.

Let us know how that works out for ya.

[Autumn]

5. You'll know exactly how it works out, no one will have to tell you. nt

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

6. Au contraire.

Did you actually read the post? How do you think Hillary wins without the progressives and independents? Like the OP said: if she ignores Bernie's issues, "the cat-herd of the left collectively lifts its tail to show you its asshole and trots off."

[JaneyVee]

18. Only on DU will "progressives" stay home.

The polls say they will back the nominee to especially stop Trump.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

174. I'm sorry, but Clinton is not that inspirational ...

... I mean, she's not inspirational at all, actually.

[brush]

286. Ahhhh . . . she's gotten way more votes than Sanders, and all the repugs.

Pls explain that.

[Fawke Em]

319. She hasn't gotten more votes than all the Republicans.

In fact, Republican voters are kicking Democrat voters' asses in turnout.

If you mean individually, fine, but that won't hold as more Republicans drop out of the race.

[brush]

332. Yes, I meant individually on all the repugs . . .

but the main point was she's gotten more than Sanders.

How do you explain that?

[Fawke Em]

333. Name recognition and media. Duh.

[brush]

335. Yeah, well, that's how it works

The dems are not going to start all over again so he can get name recognition and media.

Bernie the joined the Democratic Party eight months ago, ironically so he could more get media and name recognition.

He was literally late to the party though as he maybe should have joined years ago and made a name for himself nationally outside of Vermont — you know, to get name recognition and press coverage.

[mariawr]

218. There is a BIG part of the electorate who don't want Trump OR Clinton...

..and all Clinton supporters can do is alienate folks feeling that way without understanding WHY they feel that way. Same ol same ol

[Fawke Em]

318. Don't get out much, do you?

On every conceivable platform of social media, in every progressive circle and even in POLLING, a significant number of progressives, left-voting Independents and hoards of Millennials say they will not vote for her.

I suggest you start reading:

#BernieorBust
#BernieorJill

and read this: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/earl-ofari-hutchinson/the-democrats-worst-nightmare-bernie-clinton_b_9088702.html


for starters.

[Mike__M]

23. With tape worms to boot

[1StrongBlackMan]

80. No ... HRC will not win without the support of progressives and independents ...

does the "the cat-herd of the left (that) collectively lifts its tail to show you its asshole (while) trot(ting) off" think they will, somehow be exempted from the horror of trump (or cruz, or Kasich), when they show their asshole?

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

88. Personally, I'll vote for whoever the Dem nominee is,

Last edited Fri Mar 18, 2016, 07:46 PM - Edit history (1)

because a Trump or a Cruz presidency is too awful to contemplate. On my way to the polling place I may have to pull over to the curb a couple of times to puke but I'll vote for Hillary if the alternative is either of those two ghouls. However, I will also expect a lot of people - particularly the young people who regard Hillary as just another corrupt politician who cares only for the rich and powerful - to be so discouraged that they stay home. They won't vote GOP but they might just give up altogether if Hillary's platform disregards the issues that are so important to Bernie's campaign. There's so much enthusiasm for Bernie right now, and she needs to find a way to maintain that enthusiasm if she's the nominee.

[Warren DeMontague]

118. I keep hearing that "berniebros" are privilged folks who have the luxury of not caring all that much

I dont think its true, but if it is, then.... Oh well, i guess.

[Buzz cook]

137. Demographically they will be exempted.

Or at least the stereotypical Bernie supporter will. They're white and that has its privileges, their college educated, which saves many of them from the economic harm a republican administration brings (although I did work in a tavern with two PHDs and an MA during the Reagan error), and finally they are young meaning they can afford to wait for some liberal backlash.

So the horror of Cruz and Trump are not big motivators.

[KitSileya]

207. But it isn't very liberal or progressive to only care about one's own cohort.

The big thing about progressives and liberals is that they work for those with less privilege, for those with more to lose. If they decide that they don't care about Latin Americans, about African Americans, about women's reproductive health, about the civil rights of people who aren't straight or cisgender - well, then they aren't progressive or liberal, no matter what they call themselves.

[nashville_brook]

270. yep, and the point here is that Clinton currently doesn't offer much for those groups.

[KitSileya]

291. The point is that the Sanders supporters who refuse to support the Dem nominee

if it's not their candidate, cannot call themselves progressives or liberals, as they are willing to discard minority groups for their own selfish reasons. Clinton won't reverse Roe v Wade. Cruz, Kasich, even Trump will do that. The same with police violence against African Americans, and against people with mental illness. The same with illegal immigrants. The same with the Iran deal. The same with a lot of other issues.

There is no 'the two parties are the same'. Anyone who says that is lying, as is anyone who says there won't be a difference between a President Clinton and a President Trump.

[Fawke Em]

320. You're correct.

Trump probably won't pass the disastrous TPP. Clinton will.

[1StrongBlackMan]

294. Perhaps ... But she offers a hell of a lot more than trump or cruz ...

and how those threatening to withhold their vote can, simultaneously, claim to care about those groups, AND be willing to subject those groups to the horror that would come is beyond me.

[brush]

287. Now that's what I call straight talk — on point — not really progressives

[KitSileya]

292. Anyone who says Bernie or Bust is not a liberal or a progressive.

So you're right, they aren't progressive.

[mariawr]

223. Viewing us through your lens of privilege, Buzz?

Bernie supporters are not monolithic. We are old and young, multi ethnic and from varying SES points. So don't paint that broad brush, you may get all painted up yourself.

[Buzz cook]

289. I did use the term stereotypical

So the brush is not quite as broad as you'd like it to be.

[Silver_Witch]

193. No we do not think we will be exempt - Especially WOMAN

I know I will suffer the same as you under the horror of "fill in the blank".

My hope is that after that suffering the DNC will put forth candidates that represent all of the Democrats that stand under that flag.

I am a peace-nik, I believe love wins, I believe we have made huge strides since the 50's - not as far as I would like to be for sure. Definitely the right direction.

Corporations and the Republicans hate that we believe we can have peace and love.

Maybe after whoever wins we will find a way there.

[Buzz cook]

205. Suffering will purify the party?

Is that your claim? Because that was a claim made by many people in 2000. It didn't work then, in fact it moved the party to the right.
So do you have evidence that suffering will work this time?

[Silver_Witch]

241. I have evidence of nothing

Have no idea what you are babbling about either. What in the hell does purify the party even mean. Nothing.

What I personally want is a candidate I can vote for without feeling guilty and full of regret. I want a candidate that will stand for the rights of women and the poor.

I want one that doesn't have to "evolve" into knowing what is right and wrong.

I have no "purity test" as Bernie has his own downside. But I know one thing about Bernie - he cares about the poor and women. That is enough for me.

[Buzz cook]

293. So you didn't mean this?

My hope is that after that suffering the DNC will put forth candidates that represent all of the Democrats that stand under that flag.

Sure reads as if you meant suffering will lead to redemption.

[nashville_brook]

269. the point is that your fear argument isn't enough.

[Silver_Witch]

188. Oh Unicorn

You made me laugh so hard. I think I have found laughter again after being so sad about this Primary Session.

Thank you so very much....

Ahh the freedom of laughter and TRUTH!!!

[RobertEarl]

14. The democratic party has been losing

Have you not noticed that?

And now you are in my mind, a PUMA.

[katsy]

17. We aren't in the GE gop vs Democrats

We're talking about 1 party, the Democratic Party, which has splintered during the primaries.

The party can't afford to alienate 35% of its base.

But you're ok with that? Don't need the young or progressive half? Is that what you're saying?

[II-X-II]

25. Ok, you don't want our vote. I'll just watch L&O SVU or something

and not bother to vote. How's that?

[Lil Missy]

84. Suit yourself. n/t

[mindwalker_i]

27. "Get the fuck in line" right out of the gate

[DisgustipatedinCA]

39. It doesn't look as though you read the post. nt

[Fantastic Anarchist]

176. And if they did, they sure missed the point. nt

[Jester Messiah]

54. Tee hee.

Yeah, you can try calling the shots, but that doesn't mean anyone's gonna listen.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

180. Good luck with that attitude.

[Jester Messiah]

209. It has served me well so far.

And besides, if you're as fantastic an anarchist as your username would claim, then you should be on board with that attitude.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

211. That makes no sense.

[Jester Messiah]

212. As an anarchist...

If somebody is trying to call the shots and tell you what you're gonna do, do you listen to them?

[Fantastic Anarchist]

216. You still are making no sense.

And it's quite evident that you don't understand anarchist political philosophy. I've studied for a good 12 years now.

Read up before asking ridiculous and irrelevant questions.

Today's lesson is on me:

Daniel Guerin's Anarchism: From Theory to Practice should get you started.

[Hydra]

310. You might want to know what anarchist is before posting

Guessing doesn't work terribly well.

[litlbilly]

59. absolute bullshit missy

[rhett o rick]

65. Who's doing the demanding? The Conserva-Dems take the Left for granted and

treat us with contempt but demand we help them keep Trump out. I say you should think of that now. You couldn't intimidate enough of the Left in 2000 to keep Bush out and you're trying to make the same mistake again with another DLC/Gore/Clinton candidate that most of America doesn't want. We are going to fight you and the Big Money your horse rode in on.

[Docreed2003]

190. Exactly...

The left has been told for greater than 20 years to "get in line" with a party that, at its core, no longer resembles its former self. And yet, the left is expected to do so out of fear or the lesser of two evils. To echo your point, I think I speak for many on the left when I say that we aren't asking for ideological purity. What the left is asking is the party to move back to its roots. We shouldn't have to compromise with big business and lobbyists. We should respect and fight for the rights of labor. We should fight against racism, sexism, and homophobia at every turn. We should acknowledge that income inequality is tearing the social fabric of this country apart. We need to be smart with trade deals so that we don't lose jobs at a time where we can no longer afford to lose any more jobs. While that is just a scratch on the surface, those issues are very real with average Americans, and, frankly, Trump has been able to corrupt those concerns and morph them into his own movement. Until the party chooses to fight for the average citizen, and I truly mean fight, not just lip service, and puts that cause above catering to big business and Wall St because they are excellent sources of campaign donations, well those of us on the left will be left to make our own choices come election time and choose our own fights.

[Joe the Revelator]

104. You don't really understand politics at all, do you?

[2banon]

114. You totally don't get it do ya. Well that's your problem, not ours.

the perfect example of the premise of the post, and there it is.

[Warren DeMontague]

117. What shots, exactly, do you guys think you're calling?

There havent even been mass bannings from DU.

Not sure what you think you're gonna "get", aside from Hillary in the WH. Especially given that she is consistently fuzzy on actual policy proposals.

[jimmy_crack_corn]

143. Here's the reality.

If Hilary Wins she does win here votes but she doesn't necessarily get Bernie's.
Let us know how that works out for ya.

[Hiraeth]

165. welcome to ignore.

that is the nicest thing I can think of to say to you right now and the best thing I can do for continued involvement on DU.

[mrdmk]

177. No kidding! Three of them in one thread

Some people think they carry a big conform stick or something. Its astonishing...

[Hiraeth]

178. It is pathetic. and kind of scary. who are these people?

[Ruby the Liberal]

221. So the election is over now?

She won, no more votes need cast or tallied?

Congrats!

[nadinbrzezinski]

245. Ah not bothering to explain this one

Suffice it to say, I think the DNC is in for a surprise, and not quite pleasant.

[NRaleighLiberal]

3. ...what Scootaloo said.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

4. Bravo!

I have nothing to add because I can't think of a better way of saying all of those things.

But I am definitely going to remember this: "The cat-herd of the left collectively lifts its tail to show you its asshole and trots off."

Fucking brilliant.

[Rebkeh]

100. I know, right?

[Oilwellian]

144. It reminded me of a Mr. Fish cartoon

You can find it here.

[brush]

290. Not brilliant. The opposite of brilliant if Trump wins, but that's not going to happen . . .

as much as many Sanders supporters seem to want.

The repugs are splitting apart, scheming to take the nomination away from Trump.

That is not a recipe for winning an election even with the few Sanders supporters (few compared to the rest of the country) withhold their votes.

[beachbumbob]

7. I am still chuckling at all this

Any sanders supporter who wants a conservative in the whitehouse will deserve the destruction that will happen....just like Nader voters who gave America 8 years of bush/Cheney...it's pretty much a shameful position that dishonors Bernie.....

[smiley]

12. Blaming Nader for Bush still?

How about all those dems who voted for Bush in Florida? How about the Supreme Court's decision to not count the votes?

I'd take Nader any day over Hillary. At least I know where he stands.

Bravo Scootaloo! What you said.

[JaneyVee]

20. Yup. You either believe black lives matter or you dont.

Any silence is consent to hand Trump the keys.

[merrily]

32. Has Black Lives Matter approved Hillary's racial justice platform?

[JaneyVee]

35. Who knows. I was talking about black lives mattering.

[merrily]

40. Perplexing response! They matter so much that it doesn't matter about BLM approving a platform?

[JaneyVee]

43. The majority of black voters are making their voices heard at the voting booth.

Sorry its too much for Bernie fans to do for our eventual Dem nominee. They would rather write threats and ultimatums or they will take their wittle bwall and stay home on ewection day. Boo hoo.

[merrily]

47. A totally different issue from whether Black Lives Matter approved Hillary's racial justice platform

Which threat or ultimatum have I made? Or did you mean to address that to the OP? Sorry. Your string of non sequiturs is becoming harder and harder to comprehend.

[JaneyVee]

50. The only one who brought up that issue was you.

Argue amongst yourself.

[merrily]

53. Yes. I asked you a question about Black Lives Matter after you posted "black lives matter."

DU was getting funnier by the day. Now, it's by the hour.

[JaneyVee]

79. I was talking about black lives mattering, not BLM.

[merrily]

83. Yes, the two are so entirely unrelated. What in hell was I thinking?

JaneyVee 2016, fuck yeah!

[JaneyVee]

86. Never try arguing semantics on the internet.

[merrily]

93. Seems to suit you much better than I, so I happily leave that sort of thing to you.

[Ken Burch]

78. We care just as much about black lives as your side does.

Bernie's campaign was never indifferent to racism.

[JaneyVee]

85. Right, but our side doesnt have Bernie Or Bust...

Bernie Or Bust = not giving a shit who becomes president, even if it means letting Trump pick SCOTUS.

And if they dont care about Trump picking SCOTUS means they dont care about voting rights and criminal justice reform, etc.

[R B Garr]

243. Actually, it is Bernie's image that was cared about here the most.

When BLM was interrupting Bernie, BLM was savaged.

When BLM could be used to enhance Bernie's image, then they were okay.

But Bernie was always the No. 1 priority. So phony.

[Jackie Wilson Said]

251. Good observation. It is almost as if BLM is secondary to some folks, to be used

when it is profitable, ignored when not.

[Live and Learn]

107. Funny, as a big Black Lives Matter supporter, I don't recall seeing you in any of the posts. nt

[Fantastic Anarchist]

182. "You're either with us or against us."

Such absolutism. Wow.

[Maedhros]

30. Anyone who thinks Nader was responsible for Gore's loss goes on the ignore list.

Life is too short to be subjected to such silliness.

Bye.

[dana_b]

36. +1

they refuse to look at all of the other factors that were involved.

[merrily]

44. Looking at the whole picture only confuses the issue. The important thing to remember is:

Whenever a centrist loses an election, the left is to blame.

I just posted this on another thread and I really like how it sounds. It really has the ring of a psittacism to it, something a snollygaster can really get behind! Perfect for DU!

dorkzilla and Bryce Butler of JackpineRadicals. http://jackpineradicals.org/showthread.php?6094-Daily-Word-of-the-Day-March-11th

[1monster]

257. Merrily, you have enriched my vocabulary today!

Snallygaster?

on edit: my spell checker corrected this to "sandblaster"...

[merrily]

298. Snollygoster. Dorkzilla mentioned it first. Then it turned up in one of Bryce Butler's posts, too.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/snollygoster

Bryce Butler was my only source for "psittacism."

Word of the Day is a lot of fun for me, even though I don't necessarily remember every one.

[1monster]

300. Ah... two new words. When I first typed in "snollygoster"

the only word that came up was "snallygaster."

I will definitely keep that word in my jargon... if only to confuse people. (For example, for someone I might not much like: "Dahling, you look absolutely marvelous. Abdominus, even!&quot

(abdominus: adjective, potbellied)

[merrily]

301. I just looked up "snallygaster." It's an imaginary monster that lives in and around Washington, D.C.

according to wiki. I'm seeing a connection to "snollygoster!"

[Fawke Em]

321. A Snallygaster is a monster seen in Appalachia.

[Maedhros]

73. It's Third Way propaganda designed to keep Democrats' anger focused on The Other

rather than on the poor performance of the Third Way's handpicked apparatchiks.

[mariawr]

224. Exactly , Maedhros. Not our fault she needs all that propping up. nt

[potone]

265. Indeed!

For all of the false complaints about Bernie supporters (invariably young and male in this stereotype) being misogynist, racist, privileged whiners who want to take our marbles and go home, what is ignored is the fact that the left has been shafted over and over and over again ever since Reagan was elected in 1980, and the country and the world has gotten steadily worse as a result of it. Those of us who support Bernie would like to see the political Titanic we are sailing in change course before it hits the iceberg. I see nothing selfish about this, or about asking Hillary supporters to include in a meaningful way policy positions that are important to the left.

Scootaloo is right; and I would remind Hillary supporters that in 2008 Hillary stayed in until the convention and made demands on Obama before she endorsed him. The difference is that her demands were for herself: paying off her campaign debts and, perhaps, her job as Secretary of State. What we as Bernie supporters are asking for in return for our support, and the reason that Bernie will stay in the race until the convention even if he cannot win, is that Hillary make a serious commitment to addressing the issues that he has raised in the campaign: an economic and tax system that is rigged in favor of the wealthy, social injustice–including a racist criminal justice system–and impending climate catastrophe.

Now go on and tell me how arrogant and selfish those demands are.

I will vote for her if I have no other choice, but, like Scootaloo, I know that not all of the Bernie supporters will.

[brush]

295. I really don't get that. Clinton somehow, despite "all that propping" has way more votes

How does that work?

[redstateblues]

159. Hopefully I'm on there because without Nader

Voters in FL there would have been no Bush/Cheney and no Iraq War. Nader Denialism lives!!

[Hiraeth]

166. +2

my. How my Ignore List has grown since Super Tuesday.

[litlbilly]

60. youll own it and deserve it even more

[Broward]

67. It is a hoot. You support Hillary so you're clearly into conservatives.

[redstateblues]

160. Hillary was one of the most liberal Senators in Congress

Stop the smearing

[Broward]

162. You're backing s conservative too? You've got plenty of company.

[MattSh]

246. According to Hillary, I bet.

[desmiller]

87. You know damn the Nader has nothing to do with W's victory. It was the

Supreme court and W's weak ass brother. Blaming people for voting for their candidate is the most absurd thing anybody would do. Welcome to my naughty list. Your chuckling is now reduced to a wind breeze.

[redstateblues]

161. Nader Denialism lives. The Nader voters in FL gave us Bush/Cheney and

The Iraq War. You Nader apologists need to own the truth. " Not a dimes worth of difference"?

[nadinbrzezinski]

248. Nope tens of thousands of "loyal" conservadems did

[Qutzupalotl]

259. Actually it was Jeb and Katherine Harris' purge of 90,000

mostly black voters in Florida that swung the election initially. Please read Greg Palast's excellent articles on this subject.

Also, if Gore had asked for a statewide manual recount, we wouldn't have had Bush v. Gore.

And if Bill Clinton had resigned the presidency after admitting perjury in the witch hunt, Gore could have finished out his term and cruised to victory in 2000. We might not be stuck in Afghanistan and certainly wouldn't have invaded Iraq. Just think, no ISIS.

So there's plenty of blame to go around.

[TransitJohn]

267. The registered Democrats in Florida who voted for *Bush gave the SCOTUS the leeway to

install *Bush illegally, not Nader voters. Get over yourself and look at what happened.

[John Poet]

136. Any Sanders supporter who wanted a conservative in the White House

would have voted for Hillary.

[treestar]

214. Yes it is not in their own interests

To have a Republican in the White House with the Republican Congress. So why are they not considering their own interests?

[nadinbrzezinski]

247. Nah I blame the USSC and the tens of thousands of conservadems

That crossed for bush. The same that crossed for Reagan, and exactly the same that I expect to cross for Trump, or whoever the other side nominate... Rumblings of that is already on the air.

Though I admit I do not expect tje DNC to blame the part of the coalition that they believe is the true base of the party. Give it another 1 or 2 cycles the realignment will be complete. Though the left this year might finally do it, after all they have been left behind by the old coalition.

This is poli sci 101 by the way

[rock]

8. Re: Clinton/Sanders

Sanders is NOT to the left of Clinton, he's not even a Democrat! She's to the left of Bill, she's to the left of Obama. OK, She's to the right of me (by a little bit)! Now get serious, stop joking around.

[mindwalker_i]

29. "You are NOT of the body!"

Bull! Many, including Sanders, are to the left of Hillary. Far to the left.

[progressoid]

31. Sanders is NOT to the left of Clinton?

Huh?

[nashville_brook]

275. must be dyslexic.

[merrily]

34. o.k, nt

[rock]

76. Now come on merrily

You think I'm wrong too, don't you?

[DisgustipatedinCA]

41. Sanders is to the left of Clinton. There's no debate among serious people about this. nt

[SCantiGOP]

233. There's also no debate that Nader

Caused the election of Bush but you have people throwing that crap out here.

The Sanders crowd has an amazing ability to warp reality to fit their narrative.

I will tell the narcissistic OP again: vote in your own self-interest, but don't expect to tell me what I need to do to soothe your hurt feelings.

[Scootaloo]

126. "Left" and "Democrat" are not synonyms.

[rock]

128. True

But they are highly correlated.

[Hiraeth]

170. Honestly, the argument has been made that Kasich is to the left of HRC

snip
Skeptics have often questioned Kasich's ability to win over GOP voters, given his moderate stances on issues such as Medicaid expansion and immigration. Still, Kasich has continued to sell bipartisanship and defend his moderate stances at campaign stops, even in the conservative South. The poll suggests that strategy, combined with his attempt to stay out of the fray at GOP debates, has sunk in nationally with independents as the Republican nominating contest has continued.
snip

whole article here:
http://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/politics/elections/2016/02/17/john-kasich-best-republican-beat-hillary-clinton-bernie-sanders-poll/80502252/

[arikara]

322. Hillary is barely to the left of any of the republican candidates

Sanders is WAY to the left of her.

[LexVegas]

9. Bernie will fall in line, as will most of his supporters. The rest..meh.nt

[Mudcat]

42. but "meh!" doesn't win elections, friend n/t

[Scootaloo]

95. Well, you do what you gotta do, I suppose

You got plenty of space til June to get all that anger out, all the bile. But each day is a day gone, and each stab is one less person you can count for certain in your corner.

Don't take people for granted, LexVegas.

[Rebkeh]

101. I live in Trump country

A good number of Bernie supporters here like Trump. Seems crazy but it's true. Sanders speaks to their concerns with reason, Trump speaks to their concerns with fear. Clinton doesn't speak to them at all.

Just tellin' ya the realities on the ground in middle America.

Don't shoot the messenger.

[Docreed2003]

192. Very true...

And I've seen the same myself.

[nadinbrzezinski]

249. Yup

I hear this a lot. Change elections are what they are.

[2banon]

116. "fall in line" LOLLOLOLOLOLO

Boy, you privileged authoritarians just don't get it.

"Fall in Line"

[840high]

183. Don't count on it. This

year is very different.

[beam me up scottie]

10. Ayup, what you said.

I'm tired of seeing a good man treated worse than Trump simply because he challenged the entitled one.

From day one he was slimed and we were told that not only wasn't Bernie worthy, we weren't either.

Don't blame the left for not supporting a candidate who is too far to the right.

[creeksneakers2]

163. Who told you that you aren't worthy?

[beam me up scottie]

168. We were told that anyone who supports Bernie isn't really a Democrat.

More than once.

Then there were endless threads telling us that the "fringe left" (ie anyone who supports Bernie) were hijacking the party, were never really Democrats, wanted to destroy the party etc.

And now we're being told that our votes aren't needed.

We got the message.

[brush]

296. Ahhh . . . he's still got to earn the votes.

If he hasn't/doesn't it is what it is.

[griffi94]

11. I could agree to it

but I have no sway with the campaign.
Probly nobody else here does either.

I like DU because it gives me a chance to interact with other Democrats,
see what they're thinking, what they hope happens next, how they interpret
the latest events.
I'm not under any illusions that outside my vote and whatever local activism
i partake in, that I have any sway with the national party or even the local party.

But if it'll make you feel better then sure Bernie can pick the VP and the next SCOTUS justice as well.
or better yet he and Hillary can take turns being president.

[Squinch]

226. Great post! A bit of a voice in the wilderness, aren't you?

[griffi94]

266. Ha

Probly.
Still I figured I'd go ahead and speak up.

[Martin Eden]

268. I always try to be a voice of reason.

I voted for Bernie in the Illinois primary and I will have to hold my nose to vote for Hillary, but unless the disaster of a Trump presidency will somehow cause a backlash that brings about the change we need, I will contribute my vote to help avert that disaster.

[rhett o rick]

13. You've wasted your breath. They would vote for Clinton even if they knew she wouldn't win the

general. It's about loyalty. Then when DLC/Gore doesn't win, oops I mean DLC/Clinton doesn't win they will blame Nader or Sanders or Scootaloo or anyone but themselves. I guess it will take 4 years of Trump to possibly wake them up. Hubris of the Party Elites will be the Party's downfall.

I think you are leaving because now that WillyT has be burned at the stake, you know you are high on their list. Just kidding, I know you wouldn't run from a fight. Go in peace Scoot.

[RobertEarl]

19. Scoot tries for some Party Unity

And he gets crapped on. Note the PUMAS who are crapping.

Ya know, the future looks real fucking bleak for many reasons.

And now the Democratic party looks as bleak as it could possibly be. Thanks PUMAs!

[rhett o rick]

122. The problem is that it's our Party. They are conservatives and have co opted our Party.

There can be no unity because they revere the Wealthy and ignore those among us that are struggling. They like to bully us and demand we acquiesce to their Queen. Never happen.

[nadinbrzezinski]

250. Rhett this is a party realignment

The DNC is a Conservative party. We now have two. Physics and politics abhor a vacuum. The problem is the realignment is not complete, so they still need the left. They will promise quite a bit on the plank to get that vote (during plank negotiations) that will never be fulfilled.

[Silver_Witch]

195. RobertEarl

I agree that Scoot is really getting it from the stauch HRC supporteres....not sure what a PUMA is though.

[RobertEarl]

198. You want to talk "Unity"

Party Unity My Ass - PUMA

We saw it in 2008 when Obama crushed Hillary.

I'm all for pure unity --- Once the convention has convened and our nominee is selected. Hell, I'm for it now but the HRC peeps are sure making it hard. Scoot states what can bring us together and they are telling him to shove it. Not good.

[Scootaloo]

201. Well, it's like I said in there

After nine months of... all this, the idea that they actually do need us is probably pretty unsettling. So I'm just taking it as pride and petulance. They'll hopefully catch up. I have confidence that their candidate will, anyway.

For some of them though... honestly? I think for some, a visible percentage, it's not, and never was about getting Hillary into the white house. I hope it's just some small number, and the rest are just angry at the moment. I've been angry too, so I ain't gonna get all up in arms over it.

THank you for the support, though.

[RobertEarl]

203. Sure thing

I gave up trying to figure out many here on DU, or the internet. It just seems some love going crazy - because they can.

We need party unity, but above all we need progress. I'm not here to diddle, I want to see real progress. It can be made, and it can be made quicker with a whole party, so we do need them to get with the program and quit jerking around so damn much.

[zappaman]

119. Poor racist WillyT was "burned at the stake"?

Oh the humanity!

[Scuba]

15. While I don't agree on every point, I agree that ...

... if Hillary is our candidate she will have a very tough job convincing the left to support her.

[Zira]

199. I read an article yesterday that 37% of Bernie supporters won't vote for HRC.

I am very afraid of a president trump. I don't think the DNC understands how big of a split is going to happen. The under 30's are leaving.

The party has likely already split and was split by September 2015 if not June 2015.

Somebody needs to come up with a viable unity plan. At least the poster of this thread tried.

[Hydra]

311. The party was split before that

OWS was not a fluke- Obama was lucky that we didn't like Mitt, but that was the last time that particular ploy was going to work.

I take pride in the fact that as split as we've been, the Left tried everything they could to fix the problem through the party channels. After this, they will simply vote with their feet.

[Fawke Em]

326. And that's up from 33% less than a month ago.

If this keeps up, it will start at 45 percent by the time there's a nominee. It may dwindle back down to 30 percent or so by November, but when you add in Independents, her chances don't look good.

P.S. And that's before anything comes out about the FBI investigation. That has the potential to devastate the Party.

[reformist2]

16. The OP is 100% correct, but it will cause Hillary fans to be even more arrogant and stubborn.

I can't wait to see the responses, which will turn off even more voters from joining their ranks. Enough posts like these, and Hillary fans may lose the primary for their candidate!

[beac]

55. Look no further than the first two replies...

both nasty and snide. Hillarians like to lecture Bernie about "reining in" his supporters, but Clinton is really the one who needs to sit down with hers and tell them to "cut it out."

[NRaleighLiberal]

106. Gee - all the responses I see are very supportive of Scoot's OP!

[beac]

121. Thanks for the reminder.

[Scootaloo]

124. It's been pretty nice

[840high]

184. The usual nasty suspets.

[mariawr]

227. Got that one correct. If you want unity, you have to be able to listen and

Move for unity. Authoritarianism is the Republican way.

But again, this iteration of the Democrstic Party has lost me. After our primary, going Independent ...there are many in America thinking the same

[Capt. Obvious]

239. First two replies

What Scoot said

Bravo

[beac]

240. I think you might have some people on Ignore...

I didn't... but now I do thanks to NRLiberal's reminder of the salubrious effect of the Ignore function on one's blood pressure.

[litlbilly]

69. you got that right. And they wonder why we have such trouble with them

[joshcryer]

92. You really don't get it.

This crap will result into bigger loses for Sanders. Who cares what Clinton fans here think, this is actual sentiment out there. Mike Lukovich made a political cartoon about it today.

[Fairgo]

21. Bravo!

I think people forget the purpose of the primaries is about the platform, not the candidates per se. I have been looking for a way clear to vote for HRC, should she become that candidate, and precious little of the content of this board has actually told me what she will be held to...not what she stands for...but what she will actually do. You see, "weathervane" is not necessarily a bad thing...it describes a pure politician, who really stands for nothing, but represents whatever the platform says. I can live with that, as long as the platform conforms to my values, and the candidate is wed to the platform. You lay out a most reasonable course Scootaloo. And I did not think it possible, your positions opens a path, if needs be, to just vote...not even hold my nose. But the hard, hard part will be to convince me that the platform is anything more than a bait and switch. I need not be totally convince but know this: there's too much tinder in the forest to be playing with that fire.

[senz]

279. Good point re the importance of the party platform, Fairgo.

Although I consider Hillary ethically and psychologically unqualified for the presidency, if I thought she were willing and able to stick to a fair, democratic, people-centered platform -- similar to what Scootaloo lays out -- I wouldn't be quite so uncomfortable with the prospect of her ascending to the White House. My main concern, like Bernie's, is the people of the United States (and it irks me no end that Hill's supporters have shown no interest, beyond the level of insincere race card gaming, in the people themselves).

The possibility of bait and switch stops me, as well. If we could bind our candidates to an acceptable party platform with real penalties for significant departures from it, then maybe. What might that entail? A provisional presidency defaulting to the Vice President in the event of platform abandonment? A new qualification beyond "high crimes and misdemeanors" for impeachment and removal? Interesting to contemplate, but it's not going to happen.

Since we have no way of forcing a president to follow the platform established by his or her party, why put ourselves in such jeopardy with an untrustworthy candidate? Why not go all out for Bernie now, while we have the chance? The primaries are only half over. Various experts have said Bernie still stands a chance. This is the time for a big push, in the interest of the American people.

[Fairgo]

314. Bernie now, Bernie tomorrow, and Bernie in our hearts forever

Similarly, Bernie is not the movement. He is the servant of the movement. The beauty of Bernie is that he has proven his fealty to the idea of democracy through years of steadfast service. Unfortunately he, and we, have to navigate a corrupt and corporate system that has replaced values with labels, and vision with celebrity. This corruption that makes "high crimes and misdemeanors" perks of the job for the SoS apparently. People are right to see him as the last chance for democracy. I stand with the man because he stands with the ideals. We owe it too ourselves to be "all out" for Bernie. Should he lose the choice remains, do you stand with democracy or do you stand for nothing? And that is the question I will pose HRC if she is the candidate. I will stand steadfast with my values. It is for the candidate to come to me.

[florida08]

22. lol

very cute. I am an independent but generally vote democrats. Am sick of hearing a non vote is a vote for Trump. Sounds like the ridiculous argument the reps made about Saddam Hussein. Can't vote corporate shill anymore. Hasn't gotten us anywhere in 30 years. The first woman POTUS should be Elizabeth Warren.

If Hillary wants my vote she will have to escort DWS out the door.

[Impedimentus]

26. DWS would have to the first in a VERY LONG line

FEEL THE BERN - 2016

[florida08]

28. sure your right

[Mike__M]

24. Thank you Scootaloo

I might change the order, but I will keep your list at hand, in case Clinton wins the nomination.
Then I'll check it over on Monday, November 7, and see how things look.

[kcr]

33. Is this the same cat-herd that told people they were too dumb to vote in their best interest

if they weren't voting for Bernie Sanders? A real winning strategy, there. Because if so, I have to laugh at the hypocrisy of staying home in the GE. I'm voting for Bernie but if he doesn't win, I'm not stupid enough to let Trump win because I'm not a white male. It wouldn't be in my best interest to do that. I'm not an idiot. But, you do whatever you think is right for you, Scootaloo. Maybe you belong to a different cat-herd.

[Buzz cook]

37. "YOU NEED US TO WIN " Maybe, maybe not.

Al Gore won without Nader supporters. It wasn't a big enough margin to stop the theft, but he did win.
To make that threat work you have to show that a sizable portion of Sanders supporters will not vote. Not just vocal online worriors, but real people.

The Non-Negotiables

• Dedication to Single-Payer in her first term:

Nope not going to happen. The reasons Clinton gave are still valid if Republicans retain control of congress. I suspect a public option and reform of Medicares drug purchasing policy is more in line with what's going to happen.


• Make good on the primary season's social justice plays:

So you want Clinton to promise to keep her promise? Or do ypu plan to travel to the future to see that she has in order to garner your vote in the past?

• Stay on President Obama's foreign policy trajectory, and retain John Kerry as Secretary of State:

Umm, most Sanders supporters I talk to hate Obama's foreign policy. Which Sanders supporters are we supposed to listen to, those that think Obama is a DINO or those that think he's the best thing since JFK?

• Replace Debbie Wasserman-Schultz as DNC chair:

You really think she'll stay on after the election? That would be bucking a long standing trend.

• Pick a running mate to the left of herself:

I have to include this quote: "I think i'd settle for O'Malley," If you think O'Malley is to the left of Clinton you haven't been paying attention. But on the other hand since Clinton is a right winger according to many Bernie supporters, anyone would be to her left.

Interesting that you mention Lieberman, because he was selected to placate a certain segment of the population rather than whether he would actually help the ticket.

Sanders might have enough delegates at the convention to force a VP pick. Hopefully they'll make a good choice, but if they're to to the internet warrior form they'll pick a leftist Lieberman.

Some Other Stuff

Changing the primary system will require an act of congress. The caucus system favors the left.

Clinton has already proposed tuition and student loan reform.

The only thing standing between any Democratic president and solutions to climate change is the republican party.

[JonLeibowitz]

71. "The only thing standing between any Democratic president and solutions to climate change is the...

republican party."

What about fracking?

[Buzz cook]

132. Is there a link between fracking and climate change?

Or are you just moving the goal posts?

[jeff47]

164. :facepalm:

Dear god you need to spend some time reading.

Among the things you don't seem to know:
- Fracking releases tons of methane. Methane is about 30 times stronger than CO2 when it comes to climate change.
- Fracking doesn't make unicorn farts. It makes oil, and burning that oil contributes to climate change.
- Fracking is being done in places with "heavy" crude that produces more emissions in refining than "light" crude.

[Buzz cook]

204. So you're answering for someone else

Then would you say that if a democrat would like to limit or stop fracking will they not get opposition from republicans?

That is the question at hand.

[jeff47]

272. And now you also need to read up on who regulates oil and gas production

Hint: It isn't the legislative branch.

[Buzz cook]

284. Sorry I didn't read an answer.

Are you just dodging the question or do you not believe that republicans are obstructionist?

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Fracking_regulations

Sure looks like legislation to me.

A funny thing about regulatory agencies is that they have to work within a framework set by legislation.

[jeff47]

285. You did read an answer. You just did not understand it.

Who approves the drilling leases that allow companies to frack at all?

That would be the executive branch. At least in the places most oil companies want to use fracking.

Doesn't matter what the regulations are after you've drilled the well when you aren't allowed to drill the well in the first place.

[Buzz cook]

288. So fracking is Obama's fault? nt

nt

[HassleCat]

38. Your demands are quite reasonable.

None of them will be met, of course. Once the Clinton campaign makes sure Sanders is out of it, the hubris --m they would call it confidence -- will prevent them from making any accommodation to the left. Most of them feel they have been too nice already.

[hrmjustin]

45. I hope in the end you will support her.

[Scootaloo]

66. I don't support "bernie or bust" if that's what you mean

But I only control my own vote.

I stand by what i posted here. If Clinton's response to winning the primary is the "Now get in line, motherfuckers" approach some posters on this thread seem to want, then she's going to lose. Each of sanders' planks that she nails ot her own platform increases her final odds. I can't promise everybody will get on board, of course, like I say I only have my own vote. But it'll bolster her chances.

Thankfully i'm certain that sec. Clinton is far more politically savvy than some of her supporters, and realizes she's going to have to do some adopting.

One thing i left out, 'cause it's a little too dispiriting... even if we all get on board, if we all play our A game... we still might lose. Those three problems I mentioned? The Furher-furor for Trump, the Republican's hard-on for beating Clinton at all costs, and the reality of how hard it is for a party to take a third consecutive term in the white house are all working against us, and we can't do anything to change any of that. And I think we underestimate those fuckers at our own peril.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

46. SCOOTALOO FOR VP!

[MaggieD]

48. We don't need the Hillary haters at DU to win - sorry, no

Those folks are irrelevant in the scheme of things. And I will not encourage them by pretending as if their threats matter. They don't.

[Joe the Revelator]

105. Good luck then!!

Learn how to campaign, kid.

[John Poet]

139. Your kind of *diplomacy* reminds me of Hillary's disasterous time at State.

You clearly deserve each other.

[obamanut2012]

49. Is this Opposite Day on DU?

Because this ain't no unity thread.

[JTFrog]

57. Yep. Not so thinly veiled anti-Hillary disruptive meta OP full of hypocrisy.

Pretty shitty attempt at "unity".

[Scootaloo]

113. I make absolutely no secret that I neither like or trust her

But I do realize that she is most likely going to be our nominee. I understand too, that if she wants to win, she's going to need all of us. And I know, with total certainty, that telling a full third of the party and our Independent allies to suck a lemon is a great way for her to never see the inside of the white house again.

if you're expecting us to jump on command, to come when called, to just take for granted that we'll float you because you have decreed that we're "supposed to" well. You're going to be unhappy with what you get from that.

Like I said. We got a while until the race is actually over. Lots of time to push out all that rage and hate you have towards the peasants. Just keep in mind though that the more you abuse people, the less likely they'll be there when you need them. And you will need 'em, whether you like that or not.

[hack89]

51. We are all motivated by empathy and an interest in the future.

that is why we are all Democrats.

[Scootaloo]

120. I would hope! I wasn't trying to say anyone isn't. n/t

[LibDemAlways]

52. Note the very first response from

a poster who thinks Bernie's supporters should shut up and fall in line. Cutting off the nose to spite the face. Yours is a reasoned post and I applaud you for putting it out there. Hillary absolutely will need to make some significant concessions if she has any hope of attracting enough Bernie voters to knock off Trump. Anyone who doesn't acknowledge this is in for a shock in November. We'll have to wait to see how long it takes for them to stare reality in the face and do something about it.

[840high]

185. Look further down - she also

posted we're not wanted.

[Haveadream]

56. It makes sense for

everyone to vote for whomever they want based upon whatever conditions apply for themselves. A natural unity takes place when people find themselves aligned on enough issues that there is common ground for choosing a candidate. For the purposes of DU, that unity and common ground is assumed to be the Democratic Party and the Dem candidates. While we might feel compelled to convince undecideds in the world at large, based on the TOS for this site, it doesn't make sense for people to need to be doing that here:


"Democratic Underground is an online community for politically liberal people who understand the importance of working within the system to elect more Democrats and fewer Republicans to all levels of political office.....Winning elections is important — therefore, advocating in favor of Republican nominees or in favor of third-party spoiler candidates that could split the vote and throw an election to our conservative opponents is never permitted on Democratic Underground...When we are not in the heat of election season, members are permitted to post strong criticism or disappointment with our Democratic elected officials, or to express ambivalence about voting for them. In Democratic primaries, members may support whomever they choose. But when general election season begins, DU members must support Democratic nominees (EXCEPT in rare cases where a non-Democrat is most likely to defeat the conservative alternative, or where there is no possibility of splitting the liberal vote and inadvertently throwing the election to the conservative alternative). For presidential contests, election season begins when both major-party nominees become clear."


Since it is arguable that someone could believe we are still " in the heat of the election season", they can continue to support their chosen candidate until they are satisfied that, "the major party nominee becomes clear". At that point, members can choose to participate or not but by their presence here, it has to be assumed they do not need to be convinced how to vote. Since you said you don't expect Bernie to be the nominee and that you are done with the Primary season, it doesn't make sense for anyone on this site to be spending critical time "figuring out how to get other members on board" or persuading a fellow member to vote for a Democrat. If you are still holding out hope for Sanders, then I support your efforts on his behalf.

Just my take

[TM99]

61. Great post!

If we only lived in a civilized society like in Europe, the notion of coalition building in order to win wouldn't go over so many people's heads here.

Right now, no matter what the polls say about Clinton beating Trump, if the progressive left both in and out of the Democratic Party stay home, vote Green, or only vote down-ticket, she simply can not win.

As so many are so fond of saying, it is the math stupid!

[joshcryer]

62. No, you are not needed to win.

Your post is a glorious example as to why Sanders has lost. Completely out of touch with the reasons we lost.

[Hiraeth]

173. why should I spend time with someone who doesn't need me? welcome to ignore.

[PatrickforO]

63. I think this is the best post I've ever seen on here.

I'm a big Bernie supporter, and don't trust Clinton because I don't think she gives a damn about me, my family or our kitchen table issues. If she turns that around, then she'll have my vote. If she pivots to the right, not so much.

[Jackilope]

94. I agree. Thing is, how can anyone really trust her?

Time and time and time again, she shows poor judgement and has been on the wrong side of issues -- unless she then "evolves".

Sorry. The Devil we know (sold out, corporate, DNC / Third Way that will pass TPP -- because you KNOW they will fail us on that) vs Scary Crazy Racist GOP Devil is still dancing with the devil.

I really don't see how Independents -- a growing party registration due to dissatisfaction with both GOP and Dems -- are really going to warm up and flock over to Hillary. All this hand wringing and finger wagging over threat of Trump and purity pledges indicates that there isn't confidence HRC is the strongest.

[NCjack]

70. I not convinced, Scootalou. It seems to me that each time we think we have an understanding

with the DINOs, we are disappointed and ridiculed for being simpletons. It will be Rahm Emanuel "déjà vu all over again" (Yogi Berra). Here come the Republican Wall Street DINO's appointees to operate the levers of federal power. I have to mind-weigh the response -- do I want a DINO directing a platoon of Republicans? That's what Pres. Obama has given us, and Sec. Clinton intends to give us a continuation. I see no way to hold a DINO to promises. Don't we have to establish the position that we are not going to accept being deceived and ridiculed? If we don't stop them now, then when? In 2020, when the middle class is further weakened and less able to make a stand? It appears to me that if I, a Democrat, write in my own name on my ballot, I have fulfilled my duty to the DEM Party by voting for a Democrat. I have to give all this some more consideration.

[NuclearDem]

72. My only regret is that I have but one rec to give this.

I have absolutely no objections to any of this. You got yourself a deal, blankflank.

[1StrongBlackMan]

74. I don't understand ...

you cite to the horror that we all face, if we don't pull together. Then, indicate you are willing to NOT pull together.

Do you, somehow think you will be exempted from the horror, if you don't get what you want?

[Haveadream]

77. thank you

for your logic!

[Scootaloo]

91. I see that you don't understand.

it's not that i am "willing to not pull together," 1SBM. it's that i see a reality that people cannot simply be browbeaten into falling into line behind a candidate, no questions asked, no measures allowed. I would think as someone who's been very vocal about the browbeating treatment some of my fellow Bernie Sanders supporters have delivered to black people, you would understand that the approach just doesn't fucking work, and is actively detrimental to the stated goal. If you want people to come aboard, there has to be incentive. and "the other option sucks!" isn't really all that much of an incentive.

As for the question, do we think we'll be spared? of course we don't. I answered that in my OP.

[BainsBane]

258. You "see a reality

that people cannot simply be browbeaten into falling into line behind a candidate."

It's unfortunate you didn't come to that realization six months ago. Or even two days ago.

[bravenak]

125. Of course

[treestar]

215. A Republican in the White House with a Republican Congress

A Republican in the White House with a Republican Congress is OK as long as they can gloat over Hillary supporters. That's what it sounds like. Throw their own interests aside just because they are so mad at us.

[GoneFishin]

75. Wrong, wrong, wrong on this one point : " ... when the chair of the Democratic Party is defending

loan sharks, even YOU have to admit there's a problem. "

Nope. They have now had time to realize that loan sharks provide a valuable community service and really aren't such bad guys after all. "Evolution" and all that stuff.

[jwirr]

81. Exactly.

[synergie]

82. Yeah, that's not how unity works.

You guys seem to be a bit confused about what you want here, since you all keep posting about how you're so tired of being told how to vote, though you can never point to who might be doing that, since the people you accuse rarely engage with you on that score, and posting these lists of demands where you're holding your vote hostage and demanding that we give into your demands or you'll shoot.

It's your vote, if you believe that writing in your favorite cartoon character or even Bernie or going for one of the many interesting characters that sometimes appear on various ballots in various states, then do so. It's your right and no one will ever know.

If you truly believe some other candidate has taken your fancy or you wish to use your vote as a weapon, then who is standing in your way? Again, we have a secret ballot in this country.

We're not going to court you, respond to your badgering, give into your demands or otherwise seek your good opinion, in many cases the way that people have been conducting themselves has already ensured that very few think well of them, and thus there shall be no pleading, begging, or smooching of nether regions.

Vote however you wish. If you choose to not vote blue, well then only you shall know the true state of the purity of your supposed progressiveness.

These posts are rather amusing in the unintentional comedy factor though, so carry on and dance for our amusement, it might work off some of that frustration.

[Hiraeth]

179. You're cute. But NOT that cute. welcome to ignore.

[synergie]

189. It's not at all cute to ignore peopel who introduce simple facts you don't like,

go on insulate yourself from reality and wonder why no one is interested in your notions of unity.

Welcome to the new PUMAs may you be as successful as your predecessors.

[1monster]

307. I've put more people on ignore today than ever before. And in the past, before

February, 2016, I think I only put two or three on ignore (and then only temporarily) since I started reading DU in February of 2001 and became a member in early 2002.

I'm not sure any of them will be coming off ignore after the GE, either. I'll have to see how I feel then.

[Hiraeth]

308. yes, me too. I have a feeling both conventions are going to be very, very interesting.

[senz]

302. Hill's Bros arrogance and condescension is never welcome.

[Karma13612]

89. Standing ovation Scootaloo. +1000

And to any Hillary supporters who think this is silly:

This shows the fears that millions of Americans have.

As Scootaloo says, we are SCARED.

This is time for when the rubber hits the road.

If you don't feel the urgency and the need to get this country back on an even keel for millions who are hurting, then you aren't one of millions who are hurting.
If you are nice insulated from these problems, then you are like Hillary and have no empathy for those who are suffering.

Scootaloo, I would add one more big thing to the main list (non-negotiables):
These phrases that point to means-testing of Social Security have got to stop.
She can't keep saying that she wants to strengthen it for women who haven't worked or those who are widowed. And don't you dare tell me I have to work longer if I haven't had a construction job. I will not accept an increase in retirement age whilst Canada is lowering it as we speak.

thanks again, this is a wonder comment/post/thread/diary.

[dana_b]

90. I'm not 100% down with all of this BUT

I really like your attempt and I think you did a fine job of laying things out logically and politely. Thank you and I appreciate your efforts!

[Cheese Sandwich]

97. They don't need us. And they don't want us.

They don't need or want the grassroots progressive activists. They can put together the election math without us, and that's a fact.

We are a huge nuissance to the Democratic Party. They would rather just have us gone, pushed outside the mainstream debate, marginalized and ignored by the media.

They need the votes of the masses of people including working class whites, blacks and hispanics. And that is how they win. They add up the math. And they figured out for a real fact that there is one group of people they really don't need. And that is ideological progressives. Those are the activists. The trouble makers. They don't want people around who are going to challenge the neoliberal paradigm. People who are going to suggest things like public health insurance.

So they didn't just say it would be hard to pass that. They said it was a horrible idea.

We don't exist in big enough numbers for them to actually need our votes. And so they just want us out.

There is a purge going on. People with ideas like Bernie Sanders are being booted from the Democratic Party. They don't want us because we are troublemakers. We question things that everyone is just supposed to accept. Like why are we in a never ending war? And what good are private health insurance companies anyway?

We're being pushed out, purged out, right now. They don't want us, and they don't need us.

[Hiraeth]

309. Yes, I think you are right. More and more every day I see evidence of this.

[lumberjack_jeff]

99. Great post.

[Rebkeh]

103. What he said ^ nt

[sadoldgirl]

102. I would add as one of the most important items:

Do NOT sign the TPP, instead scrap it.

After saying that and reading your nice post, Scoot,
let me say - as I have for months - the party does not
care whether the dems win or not, as long as the status quo
is maintained.

There may be an illusion within it as well, that a cry for
unity by Bernie will get all onboard. That just won't
happen. His supporters want his policies; they don't
trust HRC and the establishment. I may be wrong, but
IF she wins, there will be a good increase in the
membership of the Greens,imo.

Still, I admire your efforts!

[Rebkeh]

108. I agree with everything you said that she needs to do to get supporters

I would have put some of the non-negotiables on the bottom half and some of the "other stuff" up top, but I largely agree with all of it.

Personally, I wouldn't trust her to follow through anyway so pandering would be wasted on me. But that said, great list. You have the right idea and I don't think it's a list of demands as much as it's a demand for representation. She wants to represent us, right? That doesn't come free.

All that said - I am not afraid of disappointment, I am old enough to have been through much worse, so I am hanging on for Bernie 100%, 24/7.

Furthermore, I think she would be dangerous, not just bad for America, but really bad.

[senz]

305. 100% agreement on "really bad."

Her behavior has shocked and even frightened me dozens of times. Something is terribly wrong. President of the United States is the most powerful job in the world.

[farleftlib]

109. ^^This^^

But from every post from a Hillary fan comes the arrogance and dismissal she is famous for. It's so simple, easily done, and you stated it so eloquently, but they think they've already "won" and no concessions will be granted.

So be it. Even Obama knew he had to win the left. He came a courtin' but then turned his back once he got elected. Hillary will do worse. She is putting choice on the table, and this before the primaries are even over. The handwriting is on the wall. We are dismissed. Get ready to reap the whirlwind.

K & R

[CharlotteVale]

110. K&R.

[Warren DeMontague]

111. I'd add "support for federal marijuana law reform beyond a token Schedule 1/2 switch", but, good OP

Last edited Fri Mar 18, 2016, 08:51 PM - Edit history (1)

I just don't think too many of the folks in question are actually interested in "unity". The ones who have shown up with their oversized transparency pages to do a victory lap, proud that they can post again despite their fourteen hides or whatever, they're mostly here to "neener neener" and score-settle.



I've said for a while that this primary season has been an excuse for some of the worst, most toxic personalities on this board to do the same crap they've always done - the manufactured outrage and drama farming, the middle school behavior, the off-site collaboration--- just now they can argue that it's in service to a Primary candidate.

Nostradamus says, next year they'll have a new excuse.

They don't "have to" do anything to get me to support the nominee, I'll do that anyway. But I do believe that, should the nominee be Sec. Clinton, she really needs to do some hard campaign self-examination and look at ways; including the ones you mention; to motivate more people to vote FOR her, and not just "against Trump".

[2banon]

112. EXCELLENT Post Scootaloo! Bravo, Well Done, my friend, Well Done.

Every word. Every outline. Solid. Outstanding. you Rock the F**k On!

[Babel_17]

115. That was well written

You quoted Miracle Max, the other night I quoted Dune. In effect the same meaning.

"There's a Bene Gesserit saying," she said.
"You have sayings for everything!" he protested.
"You'll like this one," she said. "It goes: 'Do not count a human dead until
you've seen his body. And even then you can make a mistake.' "

The beatings will continue until morale improves.

[w0nderer]

123. K & R N/T

[Bonobo]

127. You can pin this thread as far as I am concerned. A masterpiece! nt

[a kennedy]

129. Ok, that was it in a nutshell.......now tell me who the hell are the Hoopers???

it's an advertisement full of has been basketball athletes living like a family, and it's horrible. JHMO.

[jfern]

131. They don't give a shit about unity

They keep trying to use the "BernieBro" myth to drive us out of the party.

[Smarmie Doofus]

133. Ok. I am sick of this topic and can't finish this tonite. But....

... one thing for sure:

You *ain't* no fool.

K and R ( For the first half, anyway.)

[Raster]

134. BRAVO! Fucking masterpiece!

[Scootaloo]

141. Wow

You lost your right to have an opinion when you formed the wrong one. You don't deserve to have a voice at any political level.

hat's off to you, for phrasing it so clearly!

[John Poet]

150. Put your hat back on, Scoot!

On Fri Mar 18, 2016, 10:03 PM you sent an alert on the following post:

Don't need you. Don't want you.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=1528354

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

YOUR COMMENTS

I think this speaks for itself.

JURY RESULTS

A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of this alert at Fri Mar 18, 2016, 10:33 PM, and voted 5-2 to HIDE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Disruptive? - not really; Hurtful? - yep; Rude? - yep; Insensitive? - yep; over-the-top? - not really; 3>2 so 'hide'.
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Rude not a pundit.
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: This post is in response to a provocative, taunting, and rather haughty OP. In light of that, I find this post an appropriate response.
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: My decision to hide was based on this sentence: "You lost your right to have an opinion when you formed the wrong one."
I read Scootaloo's post and while I have some differences, I didn't see anything in it that deserved that.

Thank you.

[Scootaloo]

151. I'm gonna have to buy a hat, just for things like that!

[Bettie]

154. And they wonder why we distrust them

so, they neither need nor want the left.

They want a right wing party with a few social bells and whistles.

[Ghost Dog]

225. Yeah, just wow.

But an attitude quite in tune with the attitudes of the annointed candidate, I observe.

Unless it's Mr. Sanders, you're going to have a race between two rival putative Mussolinis going forward, but both less gracious than the original, I also observe.

Very nasty.

[oberliner]

142. She will probably do most of that

I think the non-negotiables, at least.

Hopefully Bernie's support (or lack thereof) should Hillary get the nomination will be an important signifier.

[William769]

147. If this is your "unity" OP I'll pass.

[Scootaloo]

149. That's cool.

[islandmkl]

148. good post...my short take on this is:

Dear Hillary: I know you really don't give a shit about me (islandmkl, not Scootaloo) and I don't really trust you to do any of the shit you now say because you think it will sway people like me to your side. So, I only have one request, not a demand, actually more of a suggestion:

PICK A GOOD FUCKING VICE-PRESIDENTIAL RUNNING MATE

...just in case we need one...

[elleng]

152. 'If we are going to nominate someone who 50% of our people can't stand,

we will lose.'

Marco Rubio Remember, this goes for both parties.

[Zira]

206. Exactly. If she gets the most delegates then the DNC still has to do a constested election

like the RNC is going to do.

Neither party can run a candidate that can't get 30% of their own party's vote. The RNC woke up and is now talking about replacing trump because he isn't viable. The DNC needs to wake up. The Democrats will not unify under a war hawk and a plutocrat. They need to remove her even if she gets all the remaining delegates. Hillary has failed to unify the democratic party. If she gets well over 50% of the Dem vote in the primaries but still can't get 30% of Dems in the GE, she failed to be viable in the GE. From what I'm hearing from the won't vote for Hillary no matter what polls, it's between 30-37% that won't vote for her. She needs to be replaced now. She isn't a viable any more than Trump is when over 30% of republicans say they won't vote for him no matter what. Wake up DNC. The RNC is ahead of you, they know trump isn't viable and will replace him with a unifier - that is what we're up against in Nov.

[NanceGreggs]

155. In November …

… you will have two candidates to choose from. One will be a Democrat; the other will be a Republican. The one who gets the most votes will become the next President of the United States.

To anyone with common sense, voting for the Democrat is the right thing to do – especially given the alternative.

Those who feel they have to be wooed, cajoled, sweet-talked, or negotiated-with in order for them to do the right thing are simply not worth wasting time on.

[Scootaloo]

158. Fascinating

so many "you'll do as you're fucking told!" responses.

[NanceGreggs]

167. Do as you're told?

I said the exact opposite.

Do whatever you want - it is of no consequence to me. I thought I'd made that quite clear.

[yodermon]

220. And once again, you're making it personal, or about the "individual".

Scootaloo has simply analyzed the flow of the river. You think you can change the flow of the river by yelling at the individual water molecules, and if she loses to trump, you'll keep yelling at the water molecules for not flowing correctly.

[TransitJohn]

274. There's many more candidates than 2. eom

n/t

[Avalux]

156. PERFECT. K&R. n/t

[CobaltBlue]

157. The first Jewish or first female U.S. president…

I do like my choices:

• Bernie Sanders

• Jill Stein

[Fantastic Anarchist]

169. Bravo!

One of the best posts I've read this primary season.

Beautifully done, and I wouldn't mind an encore.

[CreekDog]

171. you say unity but you made up your list without asking me

the thing that makes you a hypocrite is that you complain that Skinner said it's his way or the highway.

then you make up a giant list of demands and call the rest of us obeying you "unity".

[Scootaloo]

181. Not at all.

One, I said no such thing about Skinner. I poked fun about the emptying of Arkham Asylum, and paired it up with the DNC's change in donation rules. it was in fun, 'cause i do think people ought ot be up and out and talking about stuff, and the amnesty goes both ways. I still think it's funny though.

And no, I'm putting up my ideas for what Clinton can do to appeal to a voting segment that she needs. i say all over that it's my take, and people might not agree.

What do you want out of it, CreekDog?

[azurnoir]

194. I'll hand it to you - it's a brilliant OP

[John Poet]

175. Maybe Hillary should say "Read my Lips, NO NEW WARS!"

She could borrow the line from her *father-in-law*.

That might make me feel slightly better, if she could ever be believed,
but she blows lies like the wind.

I think she and her neo-con handlers are already planning the next war... in Syria or Libya or Iran...

How can I possibly vote for that?

Vote for more war and more deaths of innocent thousands,
"because...... Supreme Court"?


My biggest problems with her are things she's done,
and they can't be UN-done.... particularly in Honduras.

[840high]

187. .+1

[CoffeeCat]

186. Thank you for addressing the fear surrounding Hillary's hawkishness

I don't know about unity.

I think I've pretty much given up on that.

But I will say that I am glad to hear that others are terrified of Hillary's neocon behavior. I discuss this frequently on DU, because some have said, "Wow, I didn't know. Thank you." I also discuss it because I too, am terrified. She surrounds herself with neocons. She picks neocons as advisers and she was endorsed by Robert Kagan, the founder of the neocon movement.

I could go on and on about Syria, Libya and how Clinton publicly criticized Obama for not being into war as much as Clinton thought he should be.

She's truly terrifying. She's become a neocon. And the neocons have been bitching 24/7 the past year about Obama's Iranian agreement. They bitch because they wanted war and Obama bought some time and thwarted their desires. Such sad neocons! They will do anything to engage in war with Iran. And when that happens it will be hell. Iran is not Iraq. It will be a bloody, full-on war that could possibly spark WW3.

I am afraid that Clinton will hand the neocons Iran, as she handed them Libya. I don't see how anyone or anything could stop them.

[Silver_Witch]

191. If HRC would just stand for

...one or two of the things you propose - we might find unity - for now with all the hatred directed at Female Bernie Supporters hell would freeze over before I voted for her.

There are other choices on my ballot - and I will choose the one least offensive.

Here, however, is hoping that Bernie pulls it off so I don't have to face that decision.

[Zira]

200. And this is the truth that faces the Democratic Party.

The truth is that above 30% will not vote for her no matter who the boogie man is who they should vote for her to stop.

The DNC is already split and they cannot win because of it. They cannot win with Hillary because a large chunk of their own voters won't support it.

Where is the unity? What are they going to offer? A war hawk is not a viable answer for unity.

I believe there are two ways to save the Democratic party - 1. do the same thing as the Republicans are expressing right now, pull Hillary and put in a candidate that their supporters can unite behind (you will see article after article in the Huffington post and Slate of the Republicans about to do this to Trump/Cruz/Kasich) or 2. get behind Bernie.

They shouldn't have run a war hawk. Sure over half the Dems support her. But when nearly 40% won't no matter what, she should be declared invalid because it's not possible to have a Democratic winner in 2016 Presidential election in this situation.

I got my first hide today and I'm still stunned by it. I am guessing this will be my second.

[mariawr]

230. Zira, can't be done. They have pulled too many favors.

..and bought so many, they can't do what is needed to BE the Democratic Party.
ConservaDems...

[Silver_Witch]

242. Makes perfect sense...

No sure why anyone would "hide" this post. However, I don't really understand how things operate around here actually. That is why I have read for years and never posted.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

196. Doesn't Sanders and his supporters need the Hillary people too? Why is it just one-sided?

Aren't we all on the same team? The anti-Trump or Anti-Cruz team? Do the Sanders people not care if the Clinton people support Sanders or his philosophy? Or is it because the Sanders people have just assumed that Sanders is out. He apparently thinks he is still viable as far as I have seen from him. I'm not here an awful lot so I honestly do not get what is going on here.....

[rhett o rick]

229. There are two teams, the Ruling Class and the People.

It's a class war and the two teams are the Ruling Class with their Clinton's ($150,000,00 amassed in 15 years from what is very close to graft) vs. the People (99% of us). The Ruling Class has 90% of the total wealth and going for 100%. they have the Corp-Media at their disposal and the military and local police forces. All our team has is people, lots of people.

Goldman-Sachs admitted that the Oligarchy doesn't care whether they get Clinton or a Republicon to help them in the WH. What that means is that they consider Clinton and Trump on the same team.

Clinton supporters think they can intimidate The People into supporting the Oligarchy. They were wrong in 2000 and will be wrong in 2016.

[Jake Stern]

197. Pardon my language but fuckin' A!

[artislife]

202. Great Op

Not that I could trust her even if this happened...and I don't believe it will.

Oh well, this is the time of spring, when we let go of things. I always thought of myself as a Democrat.


But who needs labels?

[corkhead]

210. Spot on! This is one of the best reads EVAR on DU. Bookmarking and sharing this one.

I am a democrat, which I have recently learned is not the same as being a Democrat™

[treestar]

213. Why do you need all this attention?

Vote as you think best for your own interests. Surely you can figure that out. Why do you need all this attention from us? I did get through about one third.

[nashville_brook]

273. why do you question discourse on a political forum?

isn't that what we're here for? to exchange ideas?

[treestar]

336. I don't know, I guess I am too busy

clutching your Bill Clinton-print comfort pillow (as OP says :rofl in fear of OPs unmeetable demands!

[ebayfool]

219. Hell, yeah! Nailed it! Rec'ing, bookmarking and passing this to every-fucking-body I know!

Fucking brilliant. Jeebus, I wish I could express my thoughts as well as you have - stay right in my head ... you are doing it so well!

[Martin Eden]

228. Dedication to Single-Payer in her first term:

Scootaloo, I think I can guarantee that will not happen.

If Bernie supporters will withhold their votes, then the real guarantee here is a Trump presidency.

I think you're smart enough to know this, so the real question here is:
Do you think such a disaster is necessary for real change to occur, sort of like an addict having to hit bottom before recovery can begin?

[mariawr]

231. Yup. Nt

[stone space]

232. No? Please define "we".

No, we're not pacifists

Are there any other groups you'd like to exclude?

Who else aren't "we"?

[stone space]

235. I would not relegate this to "some other stuff".

• Take up Sanders' college tuition plan. Yes, this is in the "other stuff" bin primarily because, well to be fair it's maybe his shakiest idea. it's a good idea, and it's a workable idea, but it's hardly a perfect one, and if I have to choose, i'd rather see universal healthcare come first. Still, this is a big motivator for young voters, and Clinton would do well to pick it up, or at least work parts of it into her own plan. Mind her plan isn't terrible by any means - it's just not quite good enough. Let's have a peanut-butter meets chocolate thing on this issue, shall we?

For Pacifists, access to higher education is a HUGE issue, given the Pacifist Purges of Higher Education that started in the 1980s, and are ongoing to this day.

We've been essentially shut out of the system, simply because of who we are.

[dana_b]

238. there were some things that I didn't agree with Scoot on

and this was definitely one of them. I think that free public college tuition IS feasible and that his plan makes sense.

[Progressive dog]

236. Bottom line, Hillary didn't need you to win

Set all the conditions you want, but, Hillary is well on her way to victory. Neither she, nor her supporters, have any reason to concede to your demands.

[nashville_brook]

271. does she need working class white folks? does she need left progressives?

does she need left progressives in the Rising American Electorate? -- these are all groups that Sanders can't win without. is she exempt?

oh -- i forgot independents. is she winning without them too?

[Progressive dog]

280. She doesn't need the 'Sander's way only'

pretend Democrats. She is winning the Democratic delegates, she is winning the primary vote, and she is winning registered Democrats by huge margins. Sanders is not winning.

[JoePhilly]

237. From what I hear on DU, Bernie's angriest supporters here will never believe anything ...

... she says ... EVER.

So you created a list of demands, that even if Hillary came to DU in person and agreed to them ... the majority of the angry Bernie folks here would scream "LIAR!!"

[merrily]

252. It's about observation, not anger. It's too bad that some Hillary supporters see nothing

but anger and/or wishful thinking in supporters of Sanders. I tried to discuss this with another poster the other day. The short subthread starts here if by any chance you are interested.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1280&pid=148388

[JoePhilly]

264. I don't see anger in all Sanders supporters.

It's just that that small but very loud group drowns the rest of you out.

[merrily]

281. Dunno. DUers have accused me of anger a number of times and I

am often puzzled by the accusation.

[JoePhilly]

327. The angry ones post angry anti-Hillary OPs.

They demand Hillary supporters explain some shit to them.

What they really do is dominate the discussion around Bernie. And that does him no favors.

[merrily]

328. I don't post a lot of OPs in GD: P, but I have criticized Hillary. Doesn't mean I'm angry.

I just don't want her to win this primary.

[JoePhilly]

329. Then I am not talking about you.

[merrily]

330. Did I intimate that you were referring to me? If so, that was unintended.

[JoePhilly]

331. Then we're good.

[treestar]

337. You nailed it

I guess we'll have to go back to "demands for cut palms, trade in firstborns, and dire blood oaths under a full moon, or what-the-hell-have you."

[nadinbrzezinski]

244. The reality is they don't want it

I accepted that a while ago. It's too early in the party realignment not to want it, but that's ok. I just fear for the country. And your "blackmail" is why campaigns stay to the bitter end. Some of them demands will make it, never to be carried out. Which is out of the norm, but promises, never to be followed through, will be made.

[Walk away]

253. Does anyone believe a couple of hundred hard core Bernie followers are going to...

renege on their solemn promises to vote for Donald Trump before they would vote for Hillary Clinton????

Is that the offer that's on the table? Then why don't they just say it in simple terms so that the rest of us can decide whether to believe them or not???

[Bobbie Jo]

260. Agreed.

Reads like a ransom note.

[Walk away]

263. I'm just glad I took speed reading so I didn't have to waste much time on it.

[merrily]

254. 250 replies and 147 recs and counting. You sure stirred up a lot of responses!

Farewell.

[polichick]

255. Great post! Problem is, Clinton can't be trusted...

She could promise Bernie voters anything and do the opposite - just as she's borrowed his campaign message and called it her own.

I was a Dem activist for 40+ years and quit the party a few years ago because of the direction the Clintons and Obama had taken it. New Deal Democracy is what I support. Don't know what Clinton could say to "earn" my vote but she sure doesn't deserve it now.

[HereSince1628]

261. True, she'd get her 4 years.

it's not a parlimentary sys, a broken promise can't lose a majority and crash a gov't

[Qutzupalotl]

256. You should post OPs more often.

That was entertaining and informative.

[eallen]

262. Why would I negotiate with someone who would hold this nation hostage?

I'm not thrilled with either Hillary or Sanders.

And I am thoroughly disgusted at people who think because their favored Democrat may not win the primary, want to threaten this nation with a Republican presidency by sitting out or voting "their conscience" in the general election. Really? Because politics doesn't go just the way you want, you're going to throw a tantrum? Because all candidates are compromises, you're going to wish one of the worst on this nation? And you'll act like a decent citizen if the rest of us just bargain with you?

I don't expect party unity. We'll continue to have divisions and fights. I expect most of us to be unhappy with most of the outcomes of those. That is the nature of politics in a democracy.

I don't have anything to offer you. I don't expect to change anyone's behavior.

In 2000, because a few hundred people in Florida were too high-minded to vote for Al Gore and signaled that by voting for Nader, we ended up with George Bush, the Iraq War, and Alito on the Supreme Court. I hope every one of them lived long enough to see the results of their vote. And yeah, I know, if the feckless Supreme Court hadn't intervened, and so forth and so on, maybe those votes wouldn't have mattered. That causal argument works also the other way around also: a few hundred more votes for Gore would have kept the courts out of it.

Maybe some people will reflect on that recent history and become a bit more mature in their political engagement. Most won't. More's the pity.

[nashville_brook]

276. it is what it is -- the Clinton Camp can do what it takes to pick up the Sanders cohort, or not.

[JoePhilly]

277. + 100

[Binkie The Clown]

278. My dear Scoot... you know what happens when you talk sense to a Hillary supporter?

Well, you can see for yourself in their own words of response to your post.

I couldn't agree more with everything you've said, but the DNC elite and their supporters will screw this up just like they've screwed up everything else in the last how many years, with their attitude of being superior to, and wiser than we mere peon voters. It's the kind of elite "we're better than you" attitude that comes from living in a bubble of privilege. Even the replies right here in this thread reiterate their idea that we are unnecessary, ignorant, safely ignored and spat upon.

High praise to you, my friend, for a valiant effort, but I fear it will be brushed off as presumptuous of us to believe we might actually have legitimate concerns.

[Betty Karlson]

282. ^This and then some K&R too ^

[mac56]

283. Rec'd and bookmarked.

[Jenny_92808]

299. I couldn't help but choose

full ignore because of your support for conservative %#&$($$)%'s

[Scootaloo]

304. Beg pardon?

...Moot point, I suppoose

[monicaangela]

303. We are talking about the USA here aren't we?

America (the U.S.) was more about some of her citizens in past, we have to admit, some citizens in this country have suffered even when times were supposed to be good. Now with the Oligarchs in control the U.S. is for the 1% of us. We will never reverse that trend with Hillary Clinton or Donald Trump. I say Clinton supporters need to wake up and support our candidate Bernie Sanders, someone we know will fight for the things the entire nation needs, not just the few. I'm with Bernie Sanders, no surrender, no retreat, and that is my final offer.

[FourScore]

306. Please don't go!!! I need your wit and your intelligence!!!

Love this post!!

[Hydra]

312. *Laughs*

Great post- I want $15 minimum wage in there too, and no kicking the can 10 years out on it.

The reason I laugh though? So many Team Hill posts demanding our votes, waving Trump handpuppets(BTW, Thanks for inviting him tot he Primaries, Bill! What would we do without you?), and then saying they don't need us.

They'll blame it on us, but they are doing a fine job of splitting the party.

[emsimon33]

313. If Hillary ever has ANY hope of getting Bernie supporters & independents...

She and her campaign MUST stop lying...about Bernie and about her record (which I do not think she can overcome in the general election, frankly,,,her true record...not the myth); must stop cheating and using Rovian tactics; must demand that DWS resign and a true nonpartisan take over; and must forswear corporate money and SuperPacs. Oh, yeah, if she does any of this, she loses the primary. Sorry. I forgot and fell into Hillary-world fantasy for a moment.

[senz]

317. Well thought-out, intelligent, comprehensive, clever, creative, beautifully written OP, Scootaloo.

One of the best OPs I've seen on DU.

Thank you for taking the time and effort to give something of value to the entire community.

The responses from Hill supporters do not disappoint; they really are everything I thought they were, and then some.

The high-handed, authoritarian arrogance was to be expected, but it's hard to imagine any Democrat who would consider a demand for single-payer, social justice, keeping Obama's foreign policy trajectory, a new DNC chair, a progressive running mate, better primaries, free public colleges, and climate change action to be onerous.

Who are these people, and where have they hidden the Democratic Party?

Maybe we should put "missing" notices on milk cartons.

Thanks so much, Scootaloo. I hope you won't leave entirely. It's a pleasure to read you.

[muriel_volestrangler]

323. Denial, anger, bargaining ... (nt)

[whereisjustice]

324. Never in a million years. Hillary supporters are Kissinger/Reagan Democrats...

They don't like liberals, they don't like the poor, they don't like Trump but they like his trickle down economics.

The DNC has been working since 1980 to turn the Democratic Party into the Reagan Party. We're here.

[delrem]

338. K&R