Bernie's defense for not releasing tax returns: "we've been busy."

[pnwmom]

That would explain last year's tax returns, but not any of the old ones, which presumably are sitting in a file somewhere.

Hillary released hers last summer.

So what's up, Bernie?

https://www.rawstory.com/2016/04/sanders-defends-not-releasing-last-8-years-of-tax-returns-my-wife-does-them-and-weve-been-a-bit-busy/

Appearing on CNN’s State of The Union, Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders stalled off questions about releasing his income taxes for the past eight years, saying his wife does them and “we’ve been a little bit busy lately.”

Host Jake Tapper pointed out that rival Hillary Clinton has posted her returns for the last eight years online — leading to considerable criticism about her income — but Sanders has yet to post his.


“I’m kind of surprised that you haven’t gone further on transparency. You released the summary page of your 2014 tax returns,” Tapper said. “Hillary Clinton has posted on her website the last eight years of her personal returns, all of the returns. Before the New York primary will you match her? Will you post your full returns for the last eight years?”

Sanders averred, saying his wife was responsible for their taxes and that there wasn’t anything “exciting” in them.

SNIP

[Little Star]

1. Obfuscating in it's best form......

Like Hillary hasn't been busy?

[passiveporcupine]

31. Sure Hillary has been busy

Like Hillary doesn't have a tax accountant and maybe even a tax lawyer who does their taxes and can post them for her. Pick up a phone and it's done.

How many times has Bernie even been home between all his jet setting around? Is he still trying to manage his senate job too, or are they in recess now?

Give him a break. He will get to it.

[JaneyVee]

2. Jane has plenty of time.

Im sure its a pdf on the computer.

[Skink]

3. Tell whoever to talk to the Turbo tax people

[Cali_Democrat]

10. I use turbo tax and it allows you to save your tax returns as pdf files

It's so easy.

Any monkey could do it.

[Skink]

37. Ok but I have trouble remembering my password

[dflprincess]

51. Perhaps they don't take that option

I don't, I just print a copy of them and stick them a file. I don't leave any personal information on my computer.

[BeyondGeography]

4. Kinda weak, passing the buck to Jane

Should have stuck with, "We've been busy."

[DemocratSinceBirth]

9. From a purely political perspective I wonder if this issue has wheels.

[BeyondGeography]

36. Not sure

But this isn't what I'd call a presidential moment for Bernie.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

38. His supporters don't care but it might prevent him from getting new ones.

[BeyondGeography]

42. Very astute

Anything less than smooth sailing plants doubt and lowers his ceiling a little because he is still a relative mystery on the personal front.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

5. he should have added "go to opensource.com like a real reporter would do"

More info there than you'll find on tax returns anyway

[beam me up scottie]

6. Full financial disclosures for people who say he's HIDING something:

http://www.opensecrets.org/pfds/reports.php?year=2013&cid=N00000528

Get a shovel and start digging, I'm sure he's hiding SOMETHING.

[Autumn]

53. You should put that link in a stand alone OP for those who are deeply concerned and

will ignore that you posted it as long as they can.

[beam me up scottie]

55. Done! Here's the link:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511640442

[timmymoff]

7. release the transcripts

make the democrats who are currently doubting you come to your camp..unless.

[silvershadow]

8. That takes some nerve, considering we are still waiting on the Wall St speech transcripts. nt

[pnwmom]

11. I wonder what he doesn't want people to know about in the last 8 years?

Maybe that $200K payout Jane got when they ousted her from Burlington College after she ran it into the ground.

http://www.sevendaysvt.com/vermont/jane-says-sanders-secret-weapon-or-a-political-liability/Content?oid=2670992

http://vtdigger.org/2015/09/13/jane-sanders-overstated-donation-amounts-in-loan-application-for-burlington-college/

[silvershadow]

13. Oh yes, I shudder at the thought...perhaps his net worth finally topped $1 million?

[pnwmom]

14. She got $200K from Burlington College when they forced her out

Last edited Sun Apr 3, 2016, 05:54 PM - Edit history (1)

after she obtained a huge real estate loan for the college without having the promised security for it .

Maybe he doesn't want that discussed.

[silvershadow]

19. I didn't realize "she" was running. nt

[pnwmom]

21. Her income is part of his return, and he benefited from that payout too.

If you DON'T think this would be an issue if he's in the general, then you never heard of Rose Hill law firm, did you?

[silvershadow]

24. meh, it's just a desperate red herring. nt

[questionseverything]

32. about hc's returns

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511626213

Among the nuggets in the Clintons' tax forms: The couple has his-and-her LLCs, a corporate entity made by independent earners for tax advantages. Hillary Clinton's post-State Department income from speeches and her book, “Hard Choices,” was paid to ZFS Holdings LLC, established in Delaware a week after she left the job. Her husband uses a similar entity, WJC LLC, to take in speech and consulting income. The Clintons listed WJC but not ZFS in financial disclosures released earlier this year, and the Clinton campaign did not respond to questions about why the candidate's LLC was not disclosed.
The Clintons disclosed $3,022,700 in charitable contributions last year, including $3 million to the Clinton Family Foundation and $200 to Hot Springs High School's class of 1964, for which the former president attended his 50th reunion last fall. In all, the Clintons gave $14,959,450 in charitable contributions between 2007 and 2014, though nearly all-$14,769,000-went to the Clinton Family Foundation, which disburses donations to other charities, including the Clinton Foundation.
The Clintons utilize a tax strategy that I have advocated over the years. Their smart tax adviser has set up a tax savings strategy utilizing their own charity. It is real nice to contribute to your own charity, take the tax deduction and then get some of the money back as administrative fees.

////////////////////////

so i wonder why hc's ZFS LLC was not disclosed, wonder why the clinton campaign will not answer

before this campaign i would never have guessed that rich folks create charities to hide income in and to avoid paying taxes

[pnwmom]

41. That article says they DID disclose, in the tax returns that were just released. n/t

[questionseverything]

43. yes, and they don't match earlier required financial disclosures

The Clintons listed WJC but not ZFS in financial disclosures released earlier this year, and the Clinton campaign did not respond to questions about why the candidate's LLC was not disclosed.

////////

since you are such a big hc fan i thought you might like to clear up the discrepancy

/////

what do you think about the clintons donating to the foundation to avoid ss taxes?

us peons wish we had the money to create a charity to avoid taxes and then use the money as we wish

[pnwmom]

44. I have no problem with them donating directly to the foundation.

There is no reason for those funds to be taxed for social security, since they are going directly to the foundation. That would just mean less for the charity without affecting the Clinton's earnings at all, since they are giving away the money anyway.

[questionseverything]

45. not directly...first thru the LLC she forgot to disclose

then to the foundation to avoid taxes

do they then borrow money to live off of?

ya know for her 50 grand a week vacation home and stuff

[pnwmom]

46. She's released all the info and it's clear they have plenty of money

without needing to live off the charitable foundation.

[questionseverything]

57. i thought they were dead broke a couple years ago

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511639905

here is an op about them breaking their agreement with obama to disclose foundation donors

there seems to be nothing they can't get away with

[pnwmom]

58. A couple of years ago? More like 15. Plenty of time to build their assets. n/t

[snowy owl]

20. Are you sure they sold? Diocese (seller) reduced obligation by over a million $.

Asking . . . that's what I read. It was small private college expecting higher enrollment that didn't materialize. Nothing fraudulent. I guess she wasn't all that well-like by students however. (from wiki)

[pnwmom]

22. The possibly fraudulent part was claiming that she had millions in a multi-yr donation

that was actually promised in a future bequest . . . whenever.

I thought they sold it, but maybe it was just marked down as a loss. That wasn't the key issue, however.

To me there were two key issues. How she got the job in the first place, with her very thin resume. (A trustee reportedly said that the board was influenced by the fact that she was married to the Senator.) And the other was the way she mishandled the loan.

[snowy owl]

25. Was that fraud or belief?

and assuming her relationship with Sanders - I agree, that might have helped. Pretty normal procedure in business. Do you think Hillary's relationship with Bill has helped her political career? In some ways currently, it may be hurting. But we are talking about how people get jobs.

I don't think Jane's history will help Bernie but I am voting Bernie and not Jane. I cannot see her influencing him somehow. She is in social work which aligns well with Bernie's principles. Did you know that Hillary moved Bill to the right to help him in Arkansas win the governor's seat?

[pnwmom]

65. She reported the money as donations over a set period of time,

but it was actually a bequest for an unknown future date. She had a fiduciary obligation to have evidence that those funds were REAL when she completed the loan forms.

[snowy owl]

79. I agree. . . and so?

[pnwmom]

80. And so they had to pay her off $200K to break her contract, and it would be reported in those

tax returns Bernie hasn't released yet.

That he apparently doesn't want out there.

Maybe he's waiting till he loses the primaries, and then it will be moot.



P.S. One of the trustees said in an interview that Bernie being a Senator was one of the things that led to them hiring her. And considering she had her PhD from an online place that lost its accreditation shortly afterwards; and she only a year and a half of relevant education experience, that seems likely.

IOW, she seems to have gotten a college President job that she was ill qualified for and performed poorly at because of her husband's position as Senator.

If he's in the general this will be coming up. It's all up there, fully covered in the Vermont papers. It just hasn't come out in the national media.

http://www.sevendaysvt.com/vermont/jane-says-sanders-secret-weapon-or-a-political-liability/Content?oid=2670992

Burlington activist Robin Lloyd, who served on the board, says she supported O'Meara Sanders' hiring, in part, because, "We felt that her connection with Bernie would be helpful, certainly in terms of fundraising." But when the college had to come up with the cash to make its payments, O'Meara Sanders didn't pull through, she says.

"She was very confident and gave good presentations to the board, but, frankly, she didn't raise money," Lloyd says.

[karynnj]

30. It was not marked down as a loss -- the property was actually sold for LESS than its value

by the Catholic diocese to the school. It is a big, gorgeous property that stretched along the lake front.

[karynnj]

29. No, the college is still there

They found a developer who bought PART of the property and will build homes there. That allowed them to pay off part of the mortgage. This was apparently always the plan, but took longer than anticipated. One bonus - apparently from local stories, the developer is also building a dormitory.

A later President, resigned when students protested her too.

[karynnj]

23. The college did not sell the property for a loss

It includes the land it is sitting on. In fact, the deal was to sell PART OF THE PROPERTY to build housing AND they will be building the college some college housing - something they did not have on site before.

The original deal was complicated. To work, the college had to grow its student body and they had to find a developer to build housing on part of the land - which would pay off a large chunk of the mortgage. Neither happened as quickly as had been anticipated by the original plan.

However, at this point, the college has a nice place to grow and still own considerable land and their student body is much larger than it was when they bought the property. Your post makes it seem the college lost through this -- it didn't. It went from a small building at a busy corner (North Avenue and North St) to a grand, but dilapidated building that needed a lot of renovation on a pretty piece of lakeshore property.

The college could never stayed in its original home and grown to the size that it became.

I have actually been in both buildings. The old building now is used by COTS, a Burlington non profit for the homeless, where they do their phone banking for contributions before Christmas. I saw the college when the community was welcomed to see it.

[snowy owl]

26. So Jane was visionary but needed time to see that vision materialize.

That's a common error in business. Expecting pay-offs too soon. I'm pleased the college is doing well.

[pnwmom]

67. Visionary doesn't include listing future bequests as current donations. n/t

[snowy owl]

72. Since we don't know the details . . . hard to say

but I get your point

[pnwmom]

73. There has been plenty of coverage in the Vermont media, but not national coverage.

This is an example from a non-right wing site with plenty of positive Bernie coverage.

http://vtdigger.org/2015/09/13/jane-sanders-overstated-donation-amounts-in-loan-application-for-burlington-college/

Former Burlington College president Jane Sanders overstated donation amounts in a bank application for a $6.7 million loan that was used by the college to purchase a prime 33-acre property on Lake Champlain in 2010.

Sanders told People’s United Bank that the college had $2.6 million in pledged donations to support the purchase of the former Roman Catholic Diocese of Burlington property on North Avenue. The college, however, received only $676,000 in actual donations from 2010 through 2014, according to figures provided by Burlington College.

That’s far less than the $5 million Sanders listed as likely pledges in the loan agreement, and less than a third of the $2.14 million Sanders had promised People’s Bank the college would collect in cash during the four-year period.

Two people whose pledges are listed as confirmed in the loan agreement told VTDigger that their personal financial records show their pledges were overstated. Neither were aware that the pledges were used to secure the loan.

Burlington College also cited a $1 million bequest as a pledged donation that would be paid out over six years, even though the money would only be available after the donor’s death.

SniP

[snowy owl]

78. Well that wasn't smart. I understand her belief the money would come but it was a bad decision.

Build it and they will come . . . where have I heard that before? Oh yeah, in the movies.

[pantsonfire]

12. "he's looking into it"....give him at least 58 days...

http://iwilllookintoit.com/

[snowy owl]

15. One of least wealthy in Congress? What's there to see?

I know, you gotta have something to grouse about.

[pnwmom]

16. For one thing, Jane reportedly got a $200K payout when she was

involuntarily ousted from Burlington College, due to her financial mismanagement there.

And his deductions would be interesting to see. The writer of the OP article says they're unusually high.

[snowy owl]

28. $200,000 - is that a lot in politics? I don't think so. What do you think about bank pay offs?

Hillary Helps a Bank—and Then It Funnels Millions to the Clintons

The Wall Street Journal’s eyebrow-raising story of how the presidential candidate and her husband accepted cash from UBS without any regard for the appearance of impropriety that it created.

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/07/hillary-helps-a-bankand-then-it-pays-bill-15-million-in-speaking-fees/400067/

[karynnj]

33. She was not ousted for financial mismanagement and the $200K payout is

what happens when you have a contract. (In fact, the Burlington Public School System bought out a Principal for over $200,000.http://www.wptz.com/news/vermont-new-york/burlington/superintendent-jeanne-collins-to-resign-in-june/25961684 )

[DesertRat]

17. By this time in 2012, even Mitt had released his most recently completed tax return.

Bernie saying that they've been too busy is not a believable excuse for not releasing his returns.

[passiveporcupine]

34. Mitt would also have tax people to do this for him.

Hillary and Mitch can do it with a phone call.

Bernie and Jane probably need to go home and find files. Giver them a little time. They will get to it

[DesertRat]

39. I'm sure they can hire an accountant

[passiveporcupine]

40. He said Jane does their taxes.

so sure, he could make a call to a tax consultant and say look under the front door mat, there's a key. Go upstairs to Jane's study and look for our returns. We need them posted on-line asap!


Yeah, he could do this.

[DesertRat]

47. So now he's putting the blame on his wife

That will go over well.

[passiveporcupine]

48. How is he blaming her? She's with him on the campaign trial

When she has time to go home and get them dug up and posted it will get done.

[pnwmom]

64. Why didn't she release all the old ones a long time ago? They should have been

released by now.

[passiveporcupine]

71. Who says?

Is there some rule and deadline date that they've been given, or is it just coming up now because Brock is shining the cute little red laser for all of you to chase? You see, he got tired of Hillary being asked for transcripts, so he's decided to use this as a tit-for-tat...I read an article about this on a Hill blog (some blue review or something) a little earlier today. It's a deliberate ploy to send all the kitties chasing after the red dot to annoy Sanders and his campaign and supporters, so he will stop mentioning the transcripts.

Won't work though because he sees through it and we see through it.

Now go chase your dot. I'm not playing this game any more.

[pnwmom]

75. I haven't been paying attention to Brock. I've been doing my own taxes,

like most people, and that reminded me that this was still an issue.

[Renew Deal]

59. Maybe that's why he rushed her off the stage

[sadoldgirl]

18. I think that I will lurk every morning

in the HRC group to find the attack plan of the day,
and then discard any OPs on the same subject,
because they are totally useless.

[Duckhunter935]

27. I am sure he is looking into it

Give him a few months
Or the "nobody cares about it" defense like from your side.

[LoveIsNow]

35. He needs to release them or lose my vote

said no one ever.

Huge non-issue.

[geek tragedy]

50. No but he's a yuuuge hypocrite for demanding transparency for everyone else

but showing Nixonian levels of secrecy and obfuscation on disclosures every presidential nominee has made.

[phleshdef]

49. His full financial disclosures since his first term in Congress...

...have always been available. Those disclosures are better than tax returns. We were fine with this in regard to John Kerry. Please stop this nonsense. All his relevant financial history is out there in a very thorough fashion.

[pnwmom]

54. Bernie Sanders is no John Kerry. Kerry released 20 years of full tax returns.

You must have believed the Romney hype.


http://archive.boston.com/politicalintelligence/2012/07/16/john-kerry-office-blasts-mitt-romney-over-inaccurate-claims-about-tax-returns/PJibKCCrwcbusf3g0K5nXK/story.html

[phleshdef]

56. No, what I'm saying is in direct opposition to the argument Romney made.

One of the legit defenses regarding the finances of Kerry, Sanders, McCain or anyone other Congress type critter who has ran is they have all been subject to the Ethics in Government Act since 1978. If you've been in the house or senate for decades, then disclosure of finances are always available. Thats a point that was brought up when Romney attempted to lie about Kerry... that even if Romney wasn't lying, the information was still always out there because Kerry had been subject to this requirement for ages. I remember using this argument to make right wing heads explode several times in 2012.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethics_in_Government_Act?wprov=sfla1

[pnwmom]

61. No, you implied Kerry only released his Senate disclosure forms, and not his tax returns,

and that's false.

Filing Senate disclosure forms, as Bernie has done, is a separate issue. Filing the Senate forms isn't a substitute for releasing your tax returns.

Kerry and Clinton have done both. It's time for Bernie to join them.

[phleshdef]

62. No I did not imply that. But perhaps I wasn't being clear.

It was pretty common to bring up the Senate financial disclosures in arguments regarding Romney's claims about John Kerry. If you weren't there for those discussions, then I apologize. I assumed you would know what I was getting at.

Bernie will release his returns. But the financial disclosures Senators and Congress members file are pretty much just as good as a tax return.


But let me ask you...

Have you even bothered to look at Bernie's financial disclosures? What question do you want answered that you can't get from those disclosures? Do you even have an actual, valid argument to make regarding what you want to see in Bernie's tax returns that you aren't seeing in his decades of public financial disclosures? I'm trying to understand if you and others are complaining about this because you THINK there is merit to it or because its just something to complain about.

[pnwmom]

63. The disclosures provide very different information and aren't a substitute. nt

[phleshdef]

66. Not very different. The disclosures provide things tax returns don't and vice versa.

But as far as income amounts, assets and sources for those things, they are in there.

The only thing you will see on a tax return is the rate paid in taxes along with credits and deductions. I'm not sure why you think thats so important. Also, Bernie said he will release them anyway, so your point in completely moot.

[pnwmom]

68. The disclosure forms, for example, list large RANGES, not precise figures. n/t

[phleshdef]

69. Really? Got proof of that?

[pnwmom]

70. That is common knowledge. The disclosure forms only report in ranges.

But this isn't common knowledge -- and doesn't even include his real estate holdings in Vermont and D.C.

http://time.com/money/4235986/bernie-sanders-millionaire-finances/

But that form does not require Sanders to disclose the amount of savings or the kinds of investments he holds in his government retirement savings account, known as the Thrift Savings Plan — the well-regarded retirement plan, similar in many ways, to a private-sector 401(k), that GOP hopeful Marco Rubio actually proposes opening up to other Americans. The form also doesn’t include the large pension that Sanders will receive when he retires from Congress.

Sanders’ campaign did not reply to repeated emails from MONEY about his finances and his retirement account.

$1 Million-Plus Nest Egg

Although Sanders and his wife’s joint tax return showed income of only a little more than $200,000 for 2014 — including his $174,000 salary, his mayoral pension, and their Social Security payments — the senator’s expected retirement benefits make his situation much more comparable to those in the millionaire class he faults.

If Sanders, now 74, retires from politics at the end of his current Senate term two years from now, without having won the presidential election, he will be able to collect an annual pension of $71,340, MONEY calculated using the current Congressional pension formula.

For another 74-year-old man to buy a guaranteed income stream (or annuity) that would pay out the same inflation-adjusted benefit starting at age 76, it would cost “about $1 million,” according to a calculation that David Blanchett, head of retirement research at Morningstar Investment Management, ran for MONEY.

SNIP

[phleshdef]

74. No, the fact that financial disclosures are required isn't even common knowledge...

But fine, they have ranges, I'll assume you are telling the truth, you don't come off as someone who lies to me.

The calculations for Senator/Congress critters pensions are publicly available. Anyone who had the time could look that information up and figure out how much Sanders will get.

[pnwmom]

76. Here's more info on the forms, in case you're interested.

https://ballotpedia.org/Household_net_worth_(Member_of_Congress)

[krawhitham]

52. They are waiting from Hillary & Brock to make it a big real, then release & show it was a non issue

[AgingAmerican]

60. Milk that nothing!

[DemocracyDirect]

77. What's that over there!

... says David Brock...

and everyone looks away.