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Fri Apr 22, 2016, 08:12 AM

 

Another Double Standard (But This One Doesn't Matter Now)

Let me preface this question by saying that it is now moot, since the math is the math, and we know who the winner of this primary season is.

At every turn, when it has looked like Hillary has pulled away enough to be the Democratic nominee, the same question keeps popping up, and with increasing amounts of force: What is Hillary going to do to win over Bernie supporters?

To a degree, that question is fair. We all (aside from the crazies) want the party to be unified come November, and that responsibility falls on all of us, so yes, Hillary will have to make some overtures to win over Bernie supporters. Many of them say that should include adopting large portions of Bernie's platform, whether it be free college or single-payer healthcare.

My question is: If Bernie had happened to win, what was he going to do to win over Hillary supporters? Was Bernie willing to take on some of Hillary's positions to get our side to coalesce with him?

Or is this one of those cases where Hillary needed to appease Bernie, whether she won or lost?

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Arrow 57 replies Author Time Post
Reply Another Double Standard (But This One Doesn't Matter Now) (Original post)
CrowCityDem Apr 2016 OP
Trust Buster Apr 2016 #1
nichomachus Apr 2016 #51
Human101948 Apr 2016 #55
Thinkingabout Apr 2016 #2
k8conant Apr 2016 #6
firebrand80 Apr 2016 #3
Armstead Apr 2016 #5
firebrand80 Apr 2016 #9
k8conant Apr 2016 #10
firebrand80 Apr 2016 #12
k8conant Apr 2016 #14
firebrand80 Apr 2016 #17
k8conant Apr 2016 #18
Demsrule86 Apr 2016 #31
Armstead Apr 2016 #4
LexVegas Apr 2016 #7
k8conant Apr 2016 #11
randome Apr 2016 #24
athena Apr 2016 #8
k8conant Apr 2016 #13
athena Apr 2016 #16
Post removed Apr 2016 #20
athena Apr 2016 #30
brush Apr 2016 #35
Demsrule86 Apr 2016 #26
Lizzie Poppet Apr 2016 #21
athena Apr 2016 #27
Lizzie Poppet Apr 2016 #29
athena Apr 2016 #32
Lizzie Poppet Apr 2016 #37
Demsrule86 Apr 2016 #28
Lazy Daisy Apr 2016 #15
CrowCityDem Apr 2016 #19
Demsrule86 Apr 2016 #23
Lazy Daisy Apr 2016 #43
CrowCityDem Apr 2016 #44
Lazy Daisy Apr 2016 #45
CrowCityDem Apr 2016 #46
Lazy Daisy Apr 2016 #47
Demsrule86 Apr 2016 #22
NorthCarolina Apr 2016 #25
CrowCityDem Apr 2016 #33
JTFrog Apr 2016 #36
Hiraeth Apr 2016 #34
nc4bo Apr 2016 #40
Hiraeth Apr 2016 #42
TCJ70 Apr 2016 #38
CrowCityDem Apr 2016 #41
Tierra_y_Libertad Apr 2016 #39
Broward Apr 2016 #48
JSup Apr 2016 #49
pat_k Apr 2016 #50
CrowCityDem Apr 2016 #56
pat_k Apr 2016 #57
Duckhunter935 Apr 2016 #52
Buddyblazon Apr 2016 #53
gordyfl Apr 2016 #54

Response to CrowCityDem (Original post)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 08:21 AM

1. Not a fair comparison. Sanders is promising everything but the kitchen sink. If he were the nominee,

 

what could he offer Hillary supporters that he hasn't already offered ? Hillary has the exact opposite problem. She is not going to make promises that she knows she can't keep. Sanders has set the expectations amongst his supporters unrealistically high. Either his supporters decide to vote for her or not. There's really nothing, beside her current proposals, that she can offer them.

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Response to Trust Buster (Reply #1)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 03:50 PM

51. What a silly statement.

Bernie offering everything but the kitchen sink? Stupid, really stupid mischaracterization of his positions. But I guess that's the Clinton Camp meme, and you have to stick with it.

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Response to Trust Buster (Reply #1)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 04:22 PM

55. And ,of course, it's hard to know what her postions are, they change day by day...

 

"You don't need a weathervane to know which way the wind blows"

with apologies to Bob Dylan

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Response to CrowCityDem (Original post)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 08:22 AM

2. Electing a Democrat as president for oblivious reasons such as SC nominations.

We don't need Trump or Cruz nominating SC justices. Also importantly is electing down ticket candidates. Just as Sanders has received donations from Democratic sources and from money raised by Hillary, this needs to happen with other candidates. He could in turn work to elect Democrats such as endorse the DNC nominee for president. As said before, Hillary is much better than the GOP nominee.

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Response to Thinkingabout (Reply #2)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 08:28 AM

6. "oblivious" indeed!

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Response to CrowCityDem (Original post)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 08:22 AM

3. Hillary's supporters are different

They're older, so they've been through several election cycles and can see the bigger picture.

More partisan Dems, so they're going to fall in line regardless, they don't need to be convinced that they have a duty to prevent a Trump or Cruz presidency.

They're also more heavily minority, so they would have more to lose with a White Nationalist like Trump.

Also, I don't think Hillary's voters dislike Bernie as much has his supporters dislike her.

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Response to firebrand80 (Reply #3)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 08:27 AM

5. Stop using the term "fall in line"

 

I may put a clothespin on my nose and vote for her in November, but I am NEVER going to "fall in line" with the notion that the Democratic Party should be owned and beholden to Wall St. and Corporate Monopolists and Oligarchs and their hired politicians and fellow Hamptons vacationers.

Nor will the millions of others who resonated with the message of Sanders.



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Response to Armstead (Reply #5)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 08:33 AM

9. I don't care who you vote for

The hardcore PUMA people were probably worse in '08. They didn't make a difference then, they won't make a difference this year.

I think you make the mistake of believing that all the people voting for Bernie are hardcore supporters like you. Most people are going to simply look at their options in November, and make the right choice.

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Response to firebrand80 (Reply #3)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 08:36 AM

10. I'm older and apparently see a different bigger picture.

I'm someone who disagrees with Hillary's policies and record and agrees with Bernie's.

I want to prevent a Republican or Republican-light presidency.

I don't believe I should have to check my brain at the door of the Democratic Party (especially since I've voted for McGovern, Carter, Mondale, Dukakis, Clinton(alas), Gore, Kerry, and Obama).

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Response to k8conant (Reply #10)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 08:41 AM

12. As the young people would say,

cool story bro

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Response to firebrand80 (Reply #12)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 08:43 AM

14. I don't think they'd call me bro, bro

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Response to k8conant (Reply #14)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 08:53 AM

17. They definitely would nt

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Response to firebrand80 (Reply #17)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 08:54 AM

18. ok, dude

if you say so

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Response to firebrand80 (Reply #3)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 09:12 AM

31. Bernie Sanders will not be the nominee

And I absolutely dislike him now...I can't stand him. I would vote for my dog over a GOP type...because I have seen the damage they do..anyone who does not is a fool. However, it does not matter if Clinton supporter would vote for Sanders...we don't have to ...thank God.

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Response to CrowCityDem (Original post)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 08:24 AM

4. The fact that the questions was never asked by the MSM and Democratic Machine....

 

is their own double standard.

That would imply taking sanders -- and the millions who support him -- seriously and giving his candidacy legitimacy.

Can't add that to the narrative of inevitability by doing that.

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Response to CrowCityDem (Original post)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 08:30 AM

7. Meh....Bernie will fall in line, as will most of his supporters. nt

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Response to LexVegas (Reply #7)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 08:38 AM

11. That would be a fall...

if you stand for something, you don't fall for anything.

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Response to k8conant (Reply #11)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 09:06 AM

24. But if you stand for everything, you'll often end up with nothing.

 

Hopefully Sanders -if he truly remains in the party he trash-talked for decades- will have learned some messaging pointers so he can get his message more fully heard by tone-deaf politicians. If he hasn't, then his 'all-or-nothing' approach will result in nothing.

Communication is a two-way street.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]A ton of bricks, a ton of feathers, it's still gonna hurt.[/center][/font][hr]

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Response to CrowCityDem (Original post)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 08:31 AM

8. The misogyny is obvious

and it is sickening.

Bernie supporters seem to expect Hillary to beg them personally for their vote. They seem to think they will be injuring Hillary personally if they refuse to vote for her. They don't realize that they're the ones who need her. They don't realize that if Hillary loses the general election, she'll still have a happy and comfortable life, while they suffer under the policies of President Trump.

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Response to athena (Reply #8)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 08:42 AM

13. This is not misogyny so cut it out.

All I would want is for her not to be so hawkish and condescending and cloying.

I'm sure she'd have a comfortable life with all her money, no matter what she does. So maybe she should just step down now! (Actually, that is her decision not mine, just as my vote is my decision).

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Response to k8conant (Reply #13)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 08:47 AM

16. You don't get to decide what my opinion is.

I am not going to "cut it out" just because you think you know what my opinion should be.

If you can't recognize the misogyny, good for you. It suggests you haven't experienced enough of it to be able to recognize it when you see it. But that doesn't mean you get to tell others who have experienced it that their experiences and opinion are invalid because you happen to think otherwise.

Go ahead and vote as you like. I don't care one bit who you vote for. Your vote says more about you than it does about anyone else. And you're the one who will have to deal with the consequences of your vote.

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Response to athena (Reply #16)


Response to Post removed (Reply #20)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 09:11 AM

30. I never tried to silence you the way you tried to silence me.

I never told you to cut it out, the way you told me to cut it out. I never told you that your opinion is invalid, the way you claimed mine was invalid.

I have not been able to find any Bernie supporters here who are able to have a civil discussion without resorting to name-calling and personal attacks. You are no exception.

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Response to Post removed (Reply #20)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 09:16 AM

35. Hillary hates males? WTH? How do you arrive at that?

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Response to k8conant (Reply #13)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 09:07 AM

26. Why should the winner step down

Face facts ...Bernie lost...end of story. You can whine , cry and vote for Trump...it won't change that fact. We won't be blackmailed into supporting Bernie Sanders...honestly, I turn the tv off when he comes on...can't stand him at the moment.

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Response to athena (Reply #8)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 09:02 AM

21. Misogyny? Horseshit.

 

That's only "misogyny" if criticism of Bernie is antisemitism. Get a fucking grip.

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Response to Lizzie Poppet (Reply #21)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 09:07 AM

27. Is that the best you can come up with?

There is a difference between criticism and misogyny. Don't think that we're so blind that we can't see it.

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Response to athena (Reply #27)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 09:11 AM

29. It's all I NEEDED to come up with.

 

There's no misogyny in the situation described in the OP. None. The mental gymnastics required to find any is absurd.

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Response to Lizzie Poppet (Reply #29)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 09:14 AM

32. Congratulations for casually dismissing the opinion of a large group of people.

How respectful and civil of you! Just because you don't want to see misogyny, it doesn't exist!

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Response to athena (Reply #32)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 09:45 AM

37. "Argumentum ad populum"

 

Need I say more...?

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Response to athena (Reply #8)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 09:09 AM

28. Absolutely

This is why I am so angry with Bernie Sanders who has placed personal ambition and wanting to extend the gravy train in my opinion over what is good for his supporters and this country. He takes money from broke college kids even though he knows it is over...I have lost so much respect for him...he risks the election with this sort of terrible behavior.

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Response to CrowCityDem (Original post)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 08:47 AM

15. Which positions does Hillary have

 

that Bernie needs to take on? Bernie's not the candidate of "No" so what position does Hillary have that Bernie doesn't?

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Response to Lazy Daisy (Reply #15)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 08:56 AM

19. Plenty of us think his college and health care plans are pipe dreams...

 

Would he be willing to recalculate them so they make sense, and actually match reality?

I'm just trying to get at the heart of the question; why would Hillary have to change everything about her to win over Bernie's fans, but Bernie doesn't have to do anything? Is it because I didn't threaten to go 'Hillary Or Bust'?

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Response to CrowCityDem (Reply #19)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 09:04 AM

23. I agree with you

If people wanted what Bernie was peddling...he would have won the primary. He didn't.

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Response to CrowCityDem (Reply #19)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 01:17 PM

43. You're making an argument where there is none, just for the sake of argument

 

Since when do Democrats want less? Since when is universal health care a pipe dream of the Democratic Party? Since when do we not expect perfection but settle for excellence? And free tuition at public universities is not a pipe dream, it's an extremely heavy lift, but is possible.

You're not trying to get at the heart of the question, you're trying to make a point that simply can't be made.
If Bernie wins the nomination you really want him to say "OK to win over the Hillary supporters we're going to not try as hard"

What is it that Hillary supporters want Bernie to offer should he win the nomination?
What is it that would hold you back from voting for him?

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Response to Lazy Daisy (Reply #43)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 01:30 PM

44. You just proved my point.

 

Bernie is establishing a bit of a purity movement, where his answers are the only acceptable ones. I didn't say that free college or universal health care were bad ideas, I said his plans for them were faulty. And in doing so, you're intimating that I'm not being a good enough Democrat.

That's exactly the type of toxic thinking that the Tea Party uses, and it won't work on the left either.

The 'heart of the question' was, and still is, why the question of appeasing the other side only applies to Hillary.

You ask what would hold me back from voting for Bernie. Aside from the air of self-righteousness I get where he doesn't think he has ever been wrong about anything in his career, the answer is simple; reality. He proposes plans that cannot possibly work. I don't want to vote for a fantasy.

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Response to CrowCityDem (Reply #44)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 02:38 PM

45. No I didn't prove anything

 

You're asking why only Hillary has to make concessions. Because that's what candidates must do to unite a party. They need to offer something to the supporters of the other side in order to attract them. This isn't the wild west where you ride into town, kill the sheriff and now you get to run the town. Votes have to be earned.

So what is it that Bernie must do to earn the votes of Hillary supporters should he become the nominee?

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Response to Lazy Daisy (Reply #45)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 02:43 PM

46. That's what I was asking, or I was, when Bernie had any chance of winning.

 

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Response to CrowCityDem (Reply #46)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 03:10 PM

47. And what was it?

 

What was it that you need from him if he becomes the nominee in order to vote for him?

There is no double standard here. A candidate must attract voters.

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Response to CrowCityDem (Original post)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 09:03 AM

22. Gun control

I would vote for the Democratic nominee...no matter how Bernie and his campaign people have annoyed me...however, full support, working for the candidate as a volunteer, phone banks and donations would only come if he promised to work on gun control. He is all for tilting at windmills for the bank thing and healthcare...but for guns to0 hard...sorry no it is not and if you want my complete backing and not just showing up and voting...gun control.

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Response to CrowCityDem (Original post)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 09:06 AM

25. Bernie never would win hard-core Clinton supporters because, let's face it, they

 

don't cotton to Liberal policies. Unlike Clinton however, Bernie can comfortably supplement that 30% or so loss of the corporate Democrat vote by a massive influx of registered independents who (a) can vote in the GE, and (b) would never support Clinton.

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Response to NorthCarolina (Reply #25)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 09:15 AM

33. I have nothing against liberalism...

 

My problem with Bernie has always been that his plans simply don't work. You can't use the European health care market as a cost basis, when you're promising far more benefits. You can't promise 'free tuition' when you're relying on recalcitrant Republicans to foot much of the bill. You can't break up the big banks without knowing if you even have the legal authority. You can't drive the private insurance industry out of business without calculating the impact it would have on the economy.

If Bernie had plans that were more solid, and stood up to scrutiny, I would have been much more receptive. Liberal or not, plans that don't make sense aren't going to convince me.

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Response to NorthCarolina (Reply #25)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 09:20 AM

36. So much condescending bullshit in one post.

 

There is a reason that Bernie is not winning the votes of minorities and women. Fortunately your scenario will never be put to the test.




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Response to CrowCityDem (Original post)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 09:15 AM

34. Member since: Wed Mar 30, 2016, 10:09 AM = Welcome to Ignore.

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Response to Hiraeth (Reply #34)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 09:59 AM

40. Things that make you go hmmmmm especially in light of the Brock get-paid-as-you-post scheme.

Not saying this is the case here, nope.

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Response to nc4bo (Reply #40)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 10:11 AM

42. and I have no time nor patience for it. I am ruthless, from now on, with my ignore feature.

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Response to CrowCityDem (Original post)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 09:56 AM

38. Every one of Sanders proposals goes further than Clinton's...

...so the real question is: What do Clinton supporters stand to lose in a Sanders nomination?

The answer is nothing. $15 vs $12? Free public university vs community college? On every issue besides guns (which is really just massively unpopular here) he is and has been better than her.

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Response to TCJ70 (Reply #38)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 10:09 AM

41. Further doesn't mean better.

 

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Response to CrowCityDem (Original post)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 09:59 AM

39. If Hillary wants the votes of the Left, she'll have to turn left (or appear to).

 

But, I don't think many of us are going to buy it.

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Response to CrowCityDem (Original post)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 03:30 PM

48. Promise that he'd support bullshit wars.

Presumably, that's popular in the Hillary camp.

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Response to CrowCityDem (Original post)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 03:34 PM

49. The idea was...

...that since we're low-info-voters with Stockholm Syndrome we'd vote for the (D) regardless since we're too stupid to know what's good for us it wouldn't matter. Or something.

End of my daily snark.

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Response to CrowCityDem (Original post)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 03:48 PM

50. Hillary supporters support the New, New Deal!

If Bernie were the nominee, there would be no reason to start offering watered down versions of his proposals.

Every Hillary supporter I've talked to ("in real life" would love to see the major parts of Sanders New, New Deal enacted. I've never heard any of them say "his proposals are bad." The do say one or more of the following:

1. Some form of the "can't win, so don't fight," "it's unrealistic," "she's pragmatic" memes.

2. Some form of the "unelectable" meme: "He'll never be elected," "they'll crush him with the socialist/communist label."

3.We could never afford to enact the proposals (which is really another form of "it's unrealistic."

4. His supporters are obnoxious.

If Hillary changed her tune, offerred bolder proposals, called on people to elect leaders to congress who can help make it happen, and presented the "real math" demonstrating WE CAN absolutely afford these bolder proposals, she wouldn't lose anybody, and she's gain lots of people.


On the other hand, if Bernie were the nominee, and abandoned his platform, he lose people big time.

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Response to pat_k (Reply #50)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 04:38 PM

56. It's just like I thought...

 

that group of people are under the impression that Hillary has to become Bernie when she wins, but Bernie can go on being Bernie, because everything Bernie touches is gold.

It's insulting to say that regardless of which person wins the primary, virtually all of Bernie's positions have to be the platform. The loser gets to ask for some movement, but they don't get to ask for the world. There's a reason the winner wins.

Bernie was quoted this morning saying that it's "a two-way street". Obviously, from everything I've been hearing, both directions lead straight to Bernie, much like how our grandparents used to miraculously walk uphill both ways to school.

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Response to CrowCityDem (Reply #56)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 05:02 PM

57. I said "offerred bolder proposals." Hillary would never

... "become Bernie" or fully adopt his proposals.

And I hate to use absolutes like "never" but I really don't see her ever having that kind of epiphany.

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Response to CrowCityDem (Original post)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 03:52 PM

52. She already took all of his positions

 

So he would not have to give anything up, lol

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Response to CrowCityDem (Original post)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 03:56 PM

53. Well...she's not popular with independents...

 

and he is.

So really, it's far more important she make roads to bring in supporters. She's going to seriously need all the support she can get because of the combination of the two:

1. Not nearly as popular with indies as Bernie.

2. Her nomination is going to energize the right to
GOTV like we haven't seen in decades. The right is unified in one thing...their visceral hatred of Clinton.

Let's not go into the fact that she zaps the enthusiasm of people who are on the fence.

"You better vote for me or bad stuff will happen", is not much of a campaign slogan to rally the masses.

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Response to CrowCityDem (Original post)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 03:58 PM

54. Hillary Does Not Need the Endorsement of Bernie Sanders

as much as she needs the endorsement of FBI Director James Comey.

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