Words matter

[angrychair]

Last edited Sat Apr 23, 2016, 12:16 AM - Edit history (1)

My faith in the Democratic Party is seriously shaken. No, not because Sanders is losing. That's politics. I've done my part and will continue to do so for as long as he is in this race. That is not my issue at all.

It's the animosity and vitriolic manner with which fellow Democrats have attacked, not the person, but what is considered the core ideals of the Democratic Party.
I've posted OPs about student loan debt and Sanders college tuition programs and I have literally got more understanding and compassion about student loan debt from republicans. It has been a shocking attack on the poor, the struggling, the helpless and those who dare see a different way forward. These people are why we are Democrats. Millionaires and billionaires have lots of money and people to speak for them.

Democrats are the voice for the voiceless. The power for the powerless. We are what a government "of the people" is supposed to be.

The open assault on the poor, the helpless and the struggling, who need assistance aka "free stuff" has left me unnerved and very ambivalent about our future and the direction we are going in. When poor or struggling families read some of these "free stuff" memes, in you overzealous attempt to attack Sanders or his supporters, shaming them for wanting to go to college or getting public assistance, how attached do you think that makes them to the Democratic Party? What part of that encourages them to vote when both parties express disgust and elitist arrogance towards them?

If that is really where we are at, as a Party, as it appears to be, than I may have to make some changes moving forward.

[djean111]

1. I know I will make some changes.

If Bernie is not the nominee, I will wait until the day after the Aug. 30 primary here in Florida, so I can vote for Grayson, and then I am out of the party. Gone too far to the right. Cannot, will not follow it.

[angrychair]

5. More than that

I'm not worried about the politics of a specific person. I don't even think president is as important as Congress (House and Senate) or you state legislature or governor. Those have far more impact to your daily life.

I care about who we are and who we say we are, as the Democratic Party.
After the 2014 midterm loses, the DNC created a task force to look at a way to stop the massive midterm loses. One of the key findings was we needed to do a better job at "messaging".
By all accounts we have continued to do an incredibly poor job of that. We should therefore not be surprised what happens this year and in the 2018 midterm. Shaming people with "free stuff" memes and "no we can't" is not a winning formula.

[pat_k]

10. I am often mystified by the comparative attention...

presidential and legislative elections get.

It's way off.

We need civics back in school. Maybe then at least people would know who their own representatives are. (I find a depressing number of people who have no idea.)

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

33. It's a two-party system. Vote "R" or vote "D", anything else is meaningless.

So I expect this proud "BernieBro" will suck it up, hold my nose, and vote "D" in November.

Unless lightning strikes and Bernie is the candidate. Then I won't hold my nose.

[jwirr]

39. I think one more thing we Bernie supporters have accomplished

this election will be to make the D party even smaller that it already is. There was a time that we had a huge majority over both Independents and Rs. But the Independents are now bigger than we are.

In the next election this is going to make a big difference. Closed primaries will tell us absolutely nothing because the real power will be the Independents - especially if all of us leave the Democratic Party like we are saying we will.

Also there will likely be a third party candidate that will challenge the Democratic candidate outside the party unless they learn the less of this election. We do not want to be corporatists anymore.

The little Democratic Party is going to have to make some real changes if it want to keep its influence. But I don't think either Hillary, Bill or their supporters care about the party of the future. They are in it for themselves and they do not care how much harm they are doing to the party.

[think]

3. Single Payer exists just across our border. It's not a unicorn or a pony. Canada isn't a myth.

[mindwalker_i]

6. Saw a post yesterday that essentially said love it or leave it

Yeah, that's what democracy is all about. America is no longer about democracy.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

32. I've been hearing "love it or leave it" since the '60's.

And was probably used long before then (I wasn't paying attention in the '50's.)

It was stupid then, and it's still stupid now. It's not either/or.

[mindwalker_i]

38. The translation is "Shut the fuck up and agree with us"

It's irritating to see democrats using it now to bludgeon people into supporting Hillary and to stop conversations about stuff she's done wrong. It lends credence to people's claim that both parties are the same.

[NCTraveler]

4. We are all fighting for stronger primary and secondary education platforms that will benefit all.

Please see what we are supporting here. I fully understand you might find another approach to be superior, but I do like this approach in todays environment.

I am dismissing none of what you claim is being dismissed. I'm actually working toward those goals.

https://www.hillaryclinton.com/briefing/factsheets/2015/08/10/college-compact-costs/

https://www.hillaryclinton.com/briefing/factsheets/2015/08/10/college-compact-debt/

[angrychair]

8. I would love to believe you

I used to be naive when it came to Democrats in the sense that I really thought we had a common vision. That we put people and the environment first. Until this election cycle I was. I realized I was going down one path and many were going down a very different one.

I am a Democrat for the environment and people. Not for money, power or presidents.

I want my state legislature to be about Democratic ideals. My Governor. Our US Congress.

People on this website and in real life, pushing this "free stuff" memes was not an attack on Sanders or supporters of Sanders. It was an attack of me and people like me. The poor, the helpless and like me, the struggling.

[NCTraveler]

9. "I would love to believe you"

What you love, and it is clear from your first words, is shutting down any type of meaningful conversation.

"I would love to believe you"

That simply ends any type of productive conversation. You are the guilty party in that to which you are acting as if you are against.

[angrychair]

12. Yes, my advocating for the struggling

And poor and a Democratic Party that doesn't shame and demoralize them by trafficking in "free stuff" memes means I am in the wrong.

[NCTraveler]

13. I would love to believe you. nt.

[angrychair]

15. I'm trying to be polite

Your making it hard. My point, as polite as I could make it, was it is difficult to accept you really want an actual discussion. I would expect that you are insisting I except your point of view. I have read things you have posted here. I have seen the OPs you have recommended (even if you have now removed your name from it).
You have been trafficking in "free stuff" memes yourself.

Despite what you think, I am not your enemy. It's not about you. It's not about me. It's about what is best for all of us. Humiliating people for their economic situation is not the best way forward.

[NCTraveler]

16. "I would love to believe you."

That is how you responded to my very thoughtful post to you. That was your response. Great way to foster discussion.

[angrychair]

17. ok

While the real life you may well be a better person, recommending OPs like I know you have recommended, even if you have since removed your name, is a serious negative for me.
Before you go there, I have been overzealous in my own right. The difference is that I admit I have let my emotions get the better of me. While I might have been unnecessarily rude at times, for that I am sorry, I stayed focused on my core Democratic ideals. I didn't traffic in "free stuff" memes and shame people for wanting a better life or wanting a stronger voice in politics that was not dependent on how much money I contributed.

[NCTraveler]

18. I don't believe you.

You will simply do anything possible to attack me and avoid discussion. It is literally what one hundred percent of your replies to my thoughtful post have been.

Have a great weekend.

[rhett o rick]

19. And who will fund it? HRC claims she will close some loopholes

and bingo-bango come up with $35 billion per year.

Clinton's New College Compact plan costs in the range of $350 billion over 10 years and will be fully paid for by closing tax loopholes and expenditures for the most fortunate.

Those are some large loop holes and I can't see her getting $35 billion per year from her wealthy sponsors.

This is a fairly new position for her and I don't believe a word.

[NCTraveler]

23. I'm going to trust that you can read your own post.

[rhett o rick]

24. How sad that you choose to mock and ridicule instead of discuss.

I guess that comes from the faux comfort of siding with the Rich and Powerful. They don't give a crap about the 2.5 million homeless American children. Maybe some justify it as a necessity to letting the Rich and Powerful get their profits.

[NCTraveler]

25. You asked and answered in your own post.

Insinuated that she wouldn't do what she says because of her connections. Your conspiracy theory is what stopped the discussion. You asked how she was going to pay for it, answered yourself, and then went into a line about how she wouldn't do that to her friends. I'm telling you most of her friends also support it. You truly went into a conspiracy in order to shut down debate on her excellent plan.

I cannot make an argument against the thought that she won't do it because of her connections. That is a go to for someone without an argument. You can literally say, and you do often, that Clunton will or won't do something because of her connections.

[rhett o rick]

31. What is so odd is those that support Clinton disparage the left

that are fighting for decent health care, no wars, better infrastructure, correcting the growing wealth gap, saving SS, saving our water supplies, jobs, elimination of the For Profits Prisons, etc. But then on the other hand they say that Clinton is for all that stuff too. I think now she is against fracking and for a $15 min wage, if you believe it.

Some will say that Sen Sanders and the Left are dragging Clinton kicking and screaming away from the neocons, away from Wall Street influence, away from Kissinger and the MIC. I don't buy it.

We may lose this battle but we will still be fighting while Clinton has martini's with Goldman-Sachs.

[NCTraveler]

34. I don't think I'm disparaging the left.

I'm a part of the left. The further Clinton comes in my direction the happier I am. I do have great respect for her platform outside of a few issues. With some of her thoughts on education you immediately went the friends route, not a word about the ideas. As for your list, Clinton, Sanders, and their supporters are on board. The no war one is a little questionable. It's unfortunate we don't have a dove running.

[rhett o rick]

35. I haven't gone thru her new stand on education but I have gone thru some of her

other positions that she has recently changed and found them full of empty rhetoric. A lot of "I want", "we should have", "the states should."

I did look closely at her new position on fracking. Again full of rhetoric. She essentially uses a lot of words that sort of say that if fracking includes those things that fracking does and has always, then she is against it. This is a huge change since she was working hand in glove for Chevron as SoS promoting fracking around the world.

She hasn't moved left, she has only moved her rhetoric left.

[Armstead]

37. I think what you running into is the cynicism that has been engrained....

by a system and systemic Democratic corruption that has become so horrific that it resembles the Picture of Dorian Gray.

Clinton has been a part of that for so long, that nothing she proposed is believed or trusted. Likewise, unfortunately the Democratic Establishment.

Sorry but I have seen so many overt and hidden example of that corruption by "centrist Democrats" that range from "tweaks" to legislation and policy that -- surprise -- benefit Big Bidness over the majority of average people to more blatant things like Bank Deregulation, the secretive "free trade" scams...etc.

And these peopel we are told to believe in go through the Golden Door after selling us out.

Just one example. remember Dick Gephardt, former Democratic Leader who drove Democratic policy?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Gephardt#Activities_since_leaving_Congress

Since his retirement from politics, Gephardt has become a significant lobbyist. He founded a Washington-based public affairs firm, Gephardt Government Affairs, and an Atlanta-based labor consultancy, the Gephardt Group, as well as consulting for DLA Piper, FTI Consulting and Goldman Sachs.[2]

Since 2007, Gephardt began serving on the advisory board of the Extend Health insurance company, and then became a member of its board of directors. In 2009, Gephardt advised UnitedHealth Group, one of America's largest private insurers, in waging a strong campaign against a public option for national health care.[31]

Gephardt has also been significantly involved with the pharmaceutical industry. In addition to a large lobbying contract with the Medicines Company,[33] Gephardt serves as chair of the Council for American Medical Innovation (CAMI), formed by and affiliated with PhRMA. In this capacity he hired his own firm to lobby for the organization, to push to extend patents and block generic drugs from the market.[34]

Gephardt has also served as a lobbyist for Boeing.[35] He is a labor consultant for Spirit Aerosystems and sits on its board of directors.[36] In these roles, Gephardt has presided over an aggressive anti-union campaign that has bewildered many of his traditional political allies. In July 2011, Spirit Aerosystems walked out of negotiations with the union that represents its engineering, technical and professional workforce.[37] The union subsequently voted the company's last contract offer receiving a 96.5% rejection vote. The company did not change its contract offer significantly after this rejection and relations with its workforce have been contentious ever since. With negotiations at a standstill, production schedules for 2011 and 2012 are threatened.[38][39]

[840high]

27. It's hard for me to

believe and trust Hillary on anything.

[Martin Eden]

7. When people choose sides based on the candidate more than policies ...

... they stridently defend their candidate, and this often requires attacking and belittling the policies represented by their opponent.

This puts them in position of making excuses for hawkish foreign policy, taking huge sums from Wall Street swindlers, and belittling the real needs of poor people.

They really need to take a step back so they can see how they've been co-opted into being useful idiots for the oligarchy.

[pat_k]

11. Of all of it, the "no we can't" message is the most incidious...

.. and has been for far too long.

Can't win, so don't fight. Preemptive surrender. Impractical. The widespread parroting of the various rationalizations for inaction is appalling. A quintessential example was the acquiescence to Bush's theft of the White House in 2000.

It seems that the more dear the principle that needs fighting for is, the more vigorously the insiders rationalize doing nothing.

The fact that Bernie has done so well, despite the level of resistance we are seeing from "the old guard," has renewed my hope. I expect belittling and resistance. It's disheartening to see, but it's just the "old guard" guarding.

As far as "counter-message" -- I think we need to relentlessly expose the "practical" memes; the "can't win, so don't fight" memes for what they are. Cowardice, pure and simple. Shame them. Hold up a mirror. Hammer away at that one. They've tried to turn cowardice in the guise of pragmatism into a virtue -- fairly successfully. We have to pull off the disguise.

And here's a quote I like on belittling:

"New and stirring things are belittled because if they are not belittled the humiliating question arises 'Why then are you not taking part in them?'"
-- H.G. Wells

[rhett o rick]

21. Excellent post. nm

[felix_numinous]

14. Same here

and the more paid trolls that come here will shift this place IMO. They want to wear down people and drive us out of the public forums. I will keep looking for good places online to hang out

[Admiral Loinpresser]

20. The party of Third Way has left us. n/t

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

22. The question has been asked before. "Am I my brother's keeper?" The neolib, 3rd Way, answer is NO!

[Califonz]

26. Stress test

If Her Inevitableness can't take a few elbows from Bernie supporters, how is she going to handle the tsunami of negative ads the GOP will throw at her in August... in September... in October... in the first week of November?

[840high]

28. She'll take it with her usual

laugh and no answer.

[Beowulf]

29. Few things ignite nastiness among establishment Dems

than progressives who want to be taken seriously, who call on Democrats to walk the talk.

[Smarmie Doofus]

30. K and R. Fuck 'em. ( Pardon the vulgarity.)

They are NOT my DEM Party and they never will be.

If that makes me a 'good citizen' of DU..... groovy!


If not .... that's cool too.

I know what a Democrat is.